It's official Turn Based beat RTwP in the CRPG wars.

[duskvile]

Since this thread is proclaiming the death of RTWP I'll mention that one thing I enjoy about RTWP is the sense of momentum and urgency it can convey.

It' because of momentum i like RtwP more. TB is more of predetermined how you'll play becasue you only control one player at the time. Example: Concelhaut fight in Pillars 1. It's pure chaos: you can get ambushed in different directions, Concelhaut can weaken you and prone you if you're not fast enough. Urgency is quite high.
In Rtwp you need to find the strategy after you fail the fight and reload the game. This is probably not welcomed by everyone.

 

[luj1]

I dont care as long the game is good, but how can some people prefer RTwP to TB?

 

[Bruma Hobo]

Trigger warning

Both are good if done right.

Name a single good RPG with good RTwP combat then. I'm waiting.

 

[MerchantKing]

Trigger warning

Both are good if done right.

Name a single good RPG with good RTwP combat then. I'm waiting.

DARKLANDS

 

[Bruma Hobo]

DARKLANDS

I said *good* RTwP combat.

Granted, Darklands' combat system is kind of acceptable because of its simulationistic sensibilities, maybe a turn-based combat system would have felt wrong in such a hisorical kind of game. Still, combat in Darklands is definitely not good.

 

[MerchantKing]

DARKLANDS

I said *good* RTwP combat.

Granted, Darklands' combat system is kind of acceptable because of its simulationistic sensibilities,

How exactly is Darklands a bad system then?

BTW, I can say turnbased games have universally terrible combat because I have to spend several minutes each round doing nothing but watching slow boring animations until I finally get a turn. And then you gamble once to find out if your character did something, and then you have to start waiting all over again. It's the same gameplay as the lottery. Buy a ticket and then you find out whether or not you win a week later. Then if you buy another ticket, you have to wait another week again to find out if you won something. At least RTWP reduces that time spent on a round to only six seconds. Ultimately rpg gameplay is about planning. Everything after that part is best automated in the fastest way possible. That's why Darklands is superior to any turnbased game. It doesn't waste any time with pointlessly recreating a turn-structure that only existed because it would take much longer in tabletop for a DM to calculate everything without such a structure. Fortunately, we have computers which can do all those calculations at once. If anything, turn-based gameplay ultimately is a step backwards in the utilization of technological potential.

 

[Vic]

turn based >>> rtwp >>>>>>>>> real time aka action

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Real-Time-with-Pause combines the worst aspects of both turn-based and real-time combat systems, and it should have been taken behind the barn and shot in 1998, or better yet never have appeared at all.

 

[Nikanuur]

Here, I solve it for us once and for all: either is good, if it's good

 

[jf8350143]

You either have turn based game or you have ultra slow mod like PoE 2.Simply have a pause is not enough.

Again there is no reason to make RTwP games using DnD or pathfinder ruleset anyway because the system was designed to be play as turn based.

 

[Riddler]

The problem is mostly AI and encounter design which are both easier to do in turn-based models, which is my guess why we see often better combat in turn-based games.

Hmm...I think what helps make the classic RTwP games (BG and IWD) great is just that they do have good encounter design (for some reason people are obsessed with the trash fights in BG1 when the trash combat ratio is actually lower than in most CRPGs).

That is true but I think another underappreciated factor is that in order for rtwp to work you need to limit the amount of pausing that is needed to a managble level. I don't think this was intentional as much as byproduct of implementing 2e (that has limited to no active abilities for martials) and the engine being built for RTS gameplay and then retrofitted to work for RPGs.

I agree. RTwP is better suited for combat with many units that have few active abilities. But I think there is still some room for more complexity in RTwP than the Infinity engine games offered, without having to pause at every moment. And I'd very much like to see something like that. The problem is that this would require some developer to come up with their own system, which usually doesn't turn to well and doesn't sell since its not some popular brand. There are many mechanics that are much more natural in real time, such as channeling spells, interruptions, positioning, differences in attack and move speed, environmental effects, concurrent actions, etc.
Many of these things can be done in turn-based combat to some degree by using systems with more action points instead of just some low one-figure number of action points, but in the end its still less natural and constricted or turns into a book keeping nightmare to find the most efficient distribution. Although my main gripe with turn-based combat is typically alpha strikes and turn-order, which isn't as problematic in real-time where enemies can react immediately.

Also, having different progression paths for different classes rather than having everything end up being active abilities grinding things to a halt. Various kinds of passives, modals set outside of combat and modifier stacking could be done on martials instead of clickable abilities.

Or you could have active abilities out the wazoo but then you should provably make it simTB or seqTB rather than RtwP.

 

[Riddler]

It doesn't really matter because BG3 barely hit the sale charts when game devs across the industry started tripping over themselves to complain about players wanting TB games.

There is an old quote from Miyamoto where he said he's sick of 2D Mario because he already made it, even though 2D Mario still sells. It's like old bands that refuse to play their hits like the Beastie Boys. I went to a Prince concert once and he played such different music from his old stuff it may have well been some shitty indie band.

I think "TB doesn't sell" was always a dodge, game devs don't want to make old games. They're sick of the games that they made or are considered classics. They just want to make new junk based on their own stupid hobbyhorse ideas ("NASApunk"). Modern game devs mostly hate classics and see them as unwelcome competition.

Sven's big secret isn't TB gameplay it's the fact he's an Ultima fanboy.

Same goes for all media leading to some niches being underserved. Standard sincere, uplifting heroic stories is one such genre, fluffy romance is another. The second is pretty funny because the korean media production system cares very little about what the creatives want and just churns out romcom after romcom, which western women eat up because their own media production centers refuse to make this content.

 

[Camel]

I don’t really care if the game has turn-based, RTwP or real-time combat provided it’s good.
Since 2010s RPG devs are obsessed with shoving ludicrous amount of trash combat to artificially make their games longer and it can ruin any combat system.

 

[CryptRat]

Since 2010s RPG devs are obsessed with shoving ludicrous amount of trash combat to artificially make their games longer and it can ruin any combat system.

You're right, what was great about older games such as The Bard's Tale was that the encounters were sparse and meaningful.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

Real-Time-with-Pause combines the worst aspects of both turn-based and real-time combat systems, and it should have been taken behind the barn and shot in 1998, or better yet never have appeared at all.

No exceptions? Not even for Freedom Force?

 

[JarlFrank]

RTwP's sole advantage over TB is that it makes trash encounters faster.

I've never liked this argument, I understand that you mean simultaneous is faster, but in the same time in my opinion the best way to design fast combat is to make it as fast as the player clicks, not automatic with cooldowns, which also means that the player can play the fights which are worth his time the better way. Might & Magic 3 is a good example of game with fast combat to me.

Most RTwP games actually have much, much slower combat than well-designed TB games.

 

[Oropay]

upcoming Dark Evnoy.

From what I remember of Tower of Time's combat, there was very little micro. The micro is what annoys me about RTwP combat, which could be more aptly named S-s-stutter combat, or maybe PwRT, as the player creeps time forward by constantly pressing the spacebar. I'd almost rather see an 'autochess' style of combat where it's more about gear, synergy, and formations. When combat starts, you basically get to watch your troops fight while you're drinking beer. That would at least be real time.

Besides there's the whole subgenre of Commandos-like tactics, and I'd say it's the only kind of tacticools where RTwP feels better then TB.
Commando: Origins gives me hope that it won't all die together with Mimimi.

As much as I want to like those games, I never found them fun. I played quite a few hours of Shadow Tactics and Desperadoes III but didn't finish either; having said that I agree that turn based kind of sucks for stealth

 

[Nortar]

From what I remember of Tower of Time's combat, there was very little micro. The micro is what annoys me about RTwP combat, which could be more aptly named S-s-stutter combat

On the contrary.
There's not as much micro as in Pillars/Pathfinders of course, but whole lot more than in Infinity Engine classics.
Each of 4 characters has 4 abilities, most of which require precise targeting or ground placement.
So yeah, it's exactly "s-s-stutter combat" as you put it.
If I'm not mistaken, originally they were planning to make Dark Envoy turn-based. But half-way through development reverted to their tried RTwP.

The most fun (from pure tactical combat perspective) RTwP game I ever played is the old and obscure Aarklash: Legacy.

Besides there's the whole subgenre of Commandos-like tactics, and I'd say it's the only kind of tacticools where RTwP feels better then TB.

As much as I want to like those games, I never found them fun. I played quite a few hours of Shadow Tactics and Desperadoes III but didn't finish either; having said that I agree that turn based kind of sucks for stealth

I have to agree, even though I had my share of fun with this of kind RTwP stealth-tacticools, I don't like them enough to suffer the purple haze of Diversity Crew or whatitwas.

 

[octavius]

Since 2010s RPG devs are obsessed with shoving ludicrous amount of trash combat to artificially make their games longer and it can ruin any combat system.

You're right, what was great about older games such as The Bard's Tale was that the encounters were sparse and meaningful.

At least in the BT games you could always use the Flee option, and you had tools to increase the Flee chances.

Do modern, isometric CRPGs have such an option?

 

[Vic]

no but JRPGs do

 

[Falksi]

with the exception of Pokemon, action RPGs sells more(in West the at least), this is a fact:

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Best-selling_RPG_games#:~:text=2016-,25,410,000,-[31]

take out Pokemon and most of these games are action and most people play Pokemon to capture 'cute' monsters, they don't care about the combat. Final Fantasy enjoyed some good sales in the West in the PS1/PS2 era because they're cutting edge graphics back then.

I say in the West because most turn based RPGs(if not all of them) on the list are JRPGs, and most of their sales come from Japan. Japan is not making non anime looking CRPGs, what we care here.

"Ignore best-selling turn based franchises out there and action games are more popular"

Few more facts for you:

• Germany won WW2 (if you ignore the Allies who won it)
• Goats can fly higher than any other creature (if you ignore creatures which can fly)
• Pamela Anderson is on her way round to nosh you off as we speak (if you ignore the fact I'm lying about that)

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

The best selling turn based games are all Japanese, only Pokemon and Final Fantasy sells well in the west and some of the highest selling FF games are not turn based. I'm corcerned with WRPGs here, Japan is not making CRPGs and neither CRPGs are selling well in Japan, so what's matter is western taste.

If you take out all Japanese games there's not even one turn based western RPG:

1	Pokémon Red / Green / Blue / Yellow	1996	74,260,000	[31]
2	Pokémon Gold / Silver / Crystal	1999	42,210,000	[31]
3	The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt	2015	40,000,000	[6]
4	Pokémon Ruby / Sapphire / Emerald	2002	36,600,000	[31]
5	Monster Hunter World	2018	32,700,000	[32]
6	The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim	2011	30,000,000	[33]
7	Diablo III / Reaper of Souls	2014	30,000,000	[34]
8	Pokémon Sword / Shield	2019	25,820,000	[35]
9	Pokémon Sun / Moon / Ultra Sun / Ultra Moon	2016	25,410,000	[31]
10	Pokémon Diamond / Pearl / Platinum	2006	25,270,000	[31]
11	Final Fantasy VII / Remake	1997	24,228,243	[36]
12	Final Fantasy XIV	2010	24,000,000	[37][38]
13	Elden Ring	2022	22,650,000	[4]
14	Pokémon Scarlet / Violet	2022	22,100,000	[35]
15	Dark Souls III	2016	20,000,000	[4]
16	Cyberpunk 2077	2020	20,000,000	[39]
17	Borderlands 2	2012	20,000,000
18	Monster Hunter Rise	2021	18,100,000	[32]
19	Pokémon X / Y	2013	16,490,000
20	Dark Souls	2011	16,000,000	[4]
21	Pokémon Black / White	2010	15,640,000
22	Ring Fit Adventure	2019	15,380,000
23	The Elder Scrolls Online	2014	15,000,000	[40]
24	World of Warcraft	2004	14,500,000	[18]
25	Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice	2019	14,000,000	[4]
26	Lineage II	2003	14,000,000	[41]
27	Bloodborne	2015	14,000,000	[4]
28	Fallout 4	2015	13,510,000	[42]
29	Dark Souls II	2014	13,000,000	[4]
30	Fallout 3	2008	12,400,000	[43]
31	Final Fantasy VIII	1999	12,000,000	[36]
32	Final Fantasy XII	2006	11,300,000	[36]
33	Fallout: New Vegas	2010	11,000,000	[44]
34	Final Fantasy XV	2016	10,270,000	[36]
35	Final Fantasy XIII	2009	9,605,000	[36]
36	The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion	2006	9,500,000	[43]
37	Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2	2016	9,000,000	[45]
38	Final Fantasy X	2001	8,956,188	[36]
39	Final Fantasy IX	2000	8,900,000	[36]
40	Nier: Automata	2017	7,500,000	[46]
41	Yo-kai Watch 2	2014	7,300,000
42	Persona 5	2016	7,297,000	[15]
43	Final Fantasy XIII-2	2011	7,197,000	[36]
44	Final Fantasy X/X-2	2005	6,757,457	[36]
45	Dragon Quest III	1988	6,450,000	[47]
46	Dragon Quest V	1992	6,220,000	[47]
47	Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot	2020	6,000,000	[48]
48	Mass Effect 2	2010	6,000,000	[49]
49	Final Fantasy Type-0	2011	5,971,041	[36]
50	Dragon Quest IV	1990	5,970,000	[47]
51	Kingdom Hearts	2002	5,900,000
52	Dragon Quest VIII	2004	5,810,000	[47]
53	Dragon Quest VII	2000	5,570,000	[47]
54	Final Fantasy III	1990	5,522,808	[36]
55	Final Fantasy X-2	2003	5,416,355	[36]
56	Demon's Souls	2009	5,400,000	[4]
57	Dragon Quest IX	2009	5,350,000	[47]
58	Super NES Classic Edition	2017	5,280,000	[50]
59	Diablo II	2000	5,200,000	[51]
60	Chrono Trigger	1995	5,132,871	[27]
61	Final Fantasy VI	1994	5,084,649	[36]
62	Final Fantasy IV: The After Years	2008	5,034,000	[36]
63	Kingdom Hearts III	2019	5,000,000	[52]
64	Fable II	2008	5,000,000

Maybe BG3 will be the first, the list is outdated. I like turn based but you can't ignore the facts, action sells more in the West.

 

[Blutwurstritter]

I'm wondering if there aren't some real time titles that would have benefited from an active pause in hindsight. I remember cursing at Hexplore sometimes which could get quite chaotic, it wouldn't have hurt there.

 

[rogueknight333]

RPGs were originally a variation on wargames, and wargames were originally designed not as games for fun but as training exercises for military officers. Thus originally they aimed at simulating actual combat conditions as accurately as they could. To be true to that tradition, combat at the tactical level (which is the level of RPG combat) would ideally be in real time. Unfortunately this tends to not be practical if the player is expected to control multiple units at once, hence the compromise of RTwP. All compromises are arguably dubious ones, but still one advantage of RTwP games is that they tend to feel a lot more like being in a real fight and thus are more immersive, or at least I tend to find them so. In any case, TB is also a compromise, if used in a tactical-level game.

Also, in some cases RTwP gives one the option to not actually use the pause and play the game as if it were pure RT for added challenge and realism. It is not always practical to do that, but it is also not never practical. Alternatively one can use RTwP with lots of autopause features active and there will barely be any difference between that and a TB game. Thus, all else being equal I tend to prefer RTwP, though ultimately I do not actually care very much whether a RPG is TB or RTwP. There can be good and bad games of both types, and in every case I can think of that was always very far down on the list of what made them either good or bad.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Trigger warning

Both are good if done right.

Name a single good RPG with good RTwP combat then. I'm waiting.

Freedom Force