It's official Turn Based beat RTwP in the CRPG wars.

[BING XI LAO]

RtWP is simply TB but more freeform and simultaneous, leaving more room for emergent gameplay. TB is so inherently shit it requires workarounds just to let a group walk down a narrow corridor if they had the temerity to show up in the wrong sequence. In TB the question of "can I interrupt this spell" depends on the deliberate choice of the designer to make the casting time more than one round, in RTwP it depends on whether you have some attack that comes out more swiftly than the spell. Action times can be individually set for anything instead of being constrained by the low granularity of turns. Leaving aside the inherent design superiority of not forcing everything to happen inside the extremely clunky turn mechanic, for example no need for the extreme upfront RNG swing of initiative rolls, on a practical level RTwP is also superior because it plays out much faster.

Most people who dislike RTwP make comments like "it's too chaotic" which betrays that they are prissy little control freaks who suffer a spergout when more than one thing happens at once, and didn't turn on the autopause.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Another example of TB requiring workarounds is the problem of fitting actions with variable action point costs inside the allotment of AP per turn. In Underrail for example the game eventually added a carryover of up to 10 unused action points from the previous turn, so that the player didn't have to waste time figuring out a shitty minigame of using as close to 50 AP as possible each turn. While this was a good solution, TB requires constant addons and gimmicks like this just to have varied action times, and in a crpg why wouldn't you want to have that kind of simulationist detail.
TB, because it's so crude and simple, is suited only to P&P with no computer involved, but even then it's better to have simultaneous turns.

 

[scytheavatar]

Guys....... if your players want to spend less time in your combat then your combat already sucks and has failed its design goals. RTWP allowing you to breeze through trash fights is a bad thing, not a good one cause you should be asking why the fuck a CRPG has fights against trash mobs in the first place. A game dev should want his players to take their time to absorb in the artistry and effort put by the devs in the combat, rather than see combat as disposable trash.

 

[just]

universe is healing

 

[BING XI LAO]

Guys....... if your players want to spend less time in your combat then your combat already sucks and has failed its design goals. RTWP allowing you to breeze through trash fights is a bad thing, not a good one cause you should be asking why the fuck a CRPG has fights against trash mobs in the first place. A game dev should want his players to take their time to absorb in the artistry and effort put by the devs in the combat, rather than see combat as disposable trash.

lol at this TBtard cope "here's why it's actually a good thing that the player is forced to sit through sequential animations every time the combat increments by one round" XD
you can pause to admire the scenery and make decisions as well in RtWP, that's what the P standards for. You just aren't forced to play at a snail's pace where only one thing happens at once.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

RtWP is simply TB but more freeform and simultaneous, leaving more room for emergent gameplay. Action times can be individually set for anything instead of being constrained by the low granularity of turns.

That's the problem though, you end up having a lot of options to cheesy the AI, like spamming fireballs and gas clouds offscreen, setting up spike traps on Dragons before battle. In BG1 most fights are trivialized by having a super tankier character on the front line, since the AI is not smart enough to ignore it and go for the backline.

Turn Based is better at creating challenge where the solution is not abusing cheesy mechanics.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

Guys....... if your players want to spend less time in your combat then your combat already sucks and has failed its design goals. RTWP allowing you to breeze through trash fights is a bad thing, not a good one cause you should be asking why the fuck a CRPG has fights against trash mobs in the first place. A game dev should want his players to take their time to absorb in the artistry and effort put by the devs in the combat, rather than see combat as disposable trash.

Are you saying that 90% of CRPGs are bad designed? since most of them are filled to the brim with trash mobs.

That's why i quitted my last Might and Magic 7 run and went to play Heroes of Might and Magic instead, better challenge, less waste of time.

Strategy games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RPGs

 

[scytheavatar]

Guys....... if your players want to spend less time in your combat then your combat already sucks and has failed its design goals. RTWP allowing you to breeze through trash fights is a bad thing, not a good one cause you should be asking why the fuck a CRPG has fights against trash mobs in the first place. A game dev should want his players to take their time to absorb in the artistry and effort put by the devs in the combat, rather than see combat as disposable trash.

Are you saying that 90% of CRPGs are bad designed? since most of them are filled to the brim with trash mobs.

That's why i quitted my last Might and Magic 7 run and went to play Heroes of Might and Magic instead, better challenge, less waste of time.

Strategy games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RPGs

Yes. This is why RPGs (both CRPGs and JRPGs) should have less in quantity of combat and more in quality of them. This is also an advantage in turn based combat, when both turn based and real time combat sucks (something that is probably true) then the better one is the one which takes less time and effort from the developers to get right. Which is probably turn based. Cause it allows the devs more time and effort to go into the non combat elements of the game.

 

[BING XI LAO]

RtWP is simply TB but more freeform and simultaneous, leaving more room for emergent gameplay. Action times can be individually set for anything instead of being constrained by the low granularity of turns.

That's the problem though, you end up having a lot of options to cheesy the AI, like spamming fireballs and gas clouds offscreen, setting up spike traps on Dragons before battle. In BG1 most fights are trivialized by having a super tankier character on the front line, since the AI is not smart enough to ignore it and go for the backline.

Turn Based is better at creating challenge where the solution is not abusing cheesy mechanics.

Isn';t this equally possible in TB?

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

Isn';t this equally possible in TB?

less so but yes. Like you said the player is more constrained in turn based, devs have more control on how the encounter and mechanics will play out.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Guys....... if your players want to spend less time in your combat then your combat already sucks and has failed its design goals. RTWP allowing you to breeze through trash fights is a bad thing, not a good one cause you should be asking why the fuck a CRPG has fights against trash mobs in the first place. A game dev should want his players to take their time to absorb in the artistry and effort put by the devs in the combat, rather than see combat as disposable trash.

Are you saying that 90% of CRPGs are bad designed? since most of them are filled to the brim with trash mobs.

That's why i quitted my last Might and Magic 7 run and went to play Heroes of Might and Magic instead, better challenge, less waste of time.

Strategy games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RPGs

Same. But also MP is better than abusing AI, specifically convenient PBEM type modes where you have a 24-48 hour span in which to play turn on average

 

[Falksi]

Even though I know the OP's method of reasoning is bollocks, I'm more than happy to put any boot in to RtwP I can.

 

[Butter]

Guys....... if your players want to spend less time in your combat then your combat already sucks and has failed its design goals. RTWP allowing you to breeze through trash fights is a bad thing, not a good one cause you should be asking why the fuck a CRPG has fights against trash mobs in the first place. A game dev should want his players to take their time to absorb in the artistry and effort put by the devs in the combat, rather than see combat as disposable trash.

Are you saying that 90% of CRPGs are bad designed? since most of them are filled to the brim with trash mobs.

That's why i quitted my last Might and Magic 7 run and went to play Heroes of Might and Magic instead, better challenge, less waste of time.

Strategy games >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RPGs

Not sure the concept of trash mobs really applies to Might and Magic, since most fights in those games (after MM2 anyway) are over in a matter of seconds. It's not like they're wasting an appreciable amount of time.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

Not sure the concept of trash mobs really applies to Might and Magic, since most fights in those games (after MM2 anyway) are over in a matter of seconds.

It does, for me trash mobs are a lot of easy and repetitve fights, that applies very well to Might and Magic 6/7/8, more than any other CRPG maybe, you face tons of copy pasted enemies that are not really a threat in the short term. Them being killed fast does not really matter when the game throws hundreds of them at you, otherwise JRPGs do not have trash mobs either since the battles are fast.

It's not like they're wasting an appreciable amount of time.

It's not just about time, it's non engaging gameplay, if i'm not making decisions during most battles, just smashing attack button, i get bored, i'm not a fan of the Diablo genre(save for the first one) for a reason. But speaking of time, some of the dungeons in MM6 could take hours to clear them, just on how much copy pasted enemies there is in them, the early one with hundreds of skeletons comes to my mind.

 

[octavius]

Of the DOS era CRPGs I think Wiz7 was the king of trash fights. You fight large groups of HP sponged enemies that take a long time to kill and never leave any good loot. IIRC my party killed more enemies in Wiz 7 than in 6 and 8 combined.

 

[Sreggin Etah I]

Of the DOS era CRPGs I think Wiz7 was the king of trash fights. You fight large groups of HP sponged enemies that take a long time to kill and never leave any good loot. IIRC my party killed more enemies in Wiz 7 than in 6 and 8 combined.

Ha! yes years ago i watched Sinatar playing this game, his reaction to the encounter rate was hilarious, here some timestamps:

3:07:32, 3:11:55, 3:17:42, 3:21:50, 3:24:38, 3:32:32, 3:34:05, 5:51:45

 

[Quillon]

whelp, I've posted in the wrong thread it looks like, anyway:

BG3 = The biggest mainstream cRPG success(DAO) combined with the second biggest(DOS2).

This proves that the path to yuuuge success for a party based cRPG is:

a) having cinematic convos with muted protag
b) being 3D and having rotatable cam with the party following the controlled character
c) RTwP or TB doesn't matter long as the combat is intuitive.

(if your game isn't high budget you can still do b) & c))

Special thanks to Swen for proving my points right all these years

but go ahead and declare TB the winner or whatever

 

[HeatEXTEND]

a bloody execution proceeded by extreme torture session.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

People who think they're some kind of mastermind for beating the AI at the highest difficulty in some kind of tactical game are deluding themselves.

But it is kinda like Mastermind :

Spoiler

 

[Shaki]

Outcome of RTwP vs TB was never in doubt, RTwP only existed in the first place, because publishers were pushing hard for everything isometric to be a copy of Diablo, so Bioware had to make combat real-time to be even allowed to make the game. No one ever wanted this shit, no one thought it's a great idea, it's purely a workaround to make a system as close as possible to turn based, while still checking the realtime diablo-like box so suits don't cancel your project. Yeah, it persisted in the genre after BG, because BG was successful, so it was being mindlessly copied, but with the rise of indie scene and devs finally being free to make good games, rather than follow the orders of publishers to just copy what worked in the past, the death of RTwP and rise of TB was inevitable.

 

[Camel]

Resetera's opinion.

 

[Decado]

I mean BG3 made probably over a billion dollars which just killed the idea that turn based games can't make money

Only idiots believed in this.

Take it up with steamspy you turd, they have BG3 at 20 to 50 million sold.

Sorry if someone else has replied to this but the number you are quoting is almost impossible. You should never trust any of these sites like SteamSpy when it comes to sales, they are always ridiculously off. In August the game was closing in on 5.2 million units sold on Steam:

https://wccftech.com/baldurs-gate-3-topped-5-2-million-units-sold-on-steam-says-belgian-embassy/

It was also the #2 seller on the PS5 store for the month of September:

https://blog.playstation.com/2023/10/06/playstation-store-september-2023s-top-downloads/

But again, we have no actual sales numbers. The only real numbers to trust are those disclosed by the publisher, which of course comes with its own set of problems.

Every time you see a sales figure that is not from the storefront itself, the publisher, or is not revealed in something like financial documents (e.g. quarterly earnings, audits, etc.), do not believe it. They are always horseshit. Also, just use common sense. The Witcher 3 has sold 50 million copies as of March 2023, but it was released in 2015. That's almost 8 years. Skyrim has sold 60 million and that took 12 years. Red Dead Redemption 2 sold 17 million copies in the first two weeks, and is considered the biggest opening weekend for a video game or movie, ever. The idea that BG3 sold at minimum 20 million copies in two months would be drastically out of line with how some of the best selling video games in history have performed over the last 20 years. It makes no sense.

 

[Butter]

Resetera's opinion.

Anyone brave enough to stand by their "RTwP good" opinion now?

 

[luj1]

There have been good games with RTwP combat

 

[The_Mask]

I find threads like these amusing. An RPG should be good because it overcomes the medium it uses to describe its combat sequences.

For example, if you like TB, and an RPG is good despite being RTwP, then maybe that should say something.

I don't know. It's probably because I grew up playing BG I and II, and then the various TB titles at the time, that I don't really care. But it's always fun to read people that are passionate about one or the other. It's wholesome.