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Jade Empire is better than whatever shit you're playing

gurugeorge

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Lol imagine playing Jade Empire on something other than OG sexbox.

Game sucks because you can't wifu Dawn Star as a hot girl even though she's obviously meant to be with you.

It actually looks pretty spiffy at 1080p with a bit of the raytracing reshade and reshade HDR/bloom instead of the in-game bloom. (I'm using the "nice reshade" for KOTOR as a basis, plus rtgi global illumination - it's a nice basis because it has a proper UI-blanking setup (i.e. UI bits along the bottom and in the corners aren't affected as much by the fx).

Needs some AI texture upscaling though (as has been done with the KOTOR games). I'm iffy about the Daggerfall upscaling of sprites, but upscaling of textures is just perfect for this period of graphics history, it really gives it a facelift.

It's one of those things though - as you pull up the texture quality, you start noticing the blockiness of the meshes relatively speaking and you want there to be moar polygons. But it doesn't look bad at all, quite liveable (after all only a bit beyond what machines could do in those days).
 

Palomides

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Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
419
Crap American style Chinese 'mystical' orientalist rubbish plagued with typical BioWare nonsense. who the fuck could not see the 'twist' btw. Awful combat and character developmental system, too.
 

Bigg Boss

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Yeah but it was a Bioware RPG on the OG Xbox before they went to total shit. It was ok at the time. I played it once and will likely not play it again due to how simple it is.
 
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To this day I have no idea why this received a mature rating. Barely an RPG, but still, I quite enjoyed the romp through a fantasy China. It successfully pulled the look straight out of my imagination, in particular that village area right after the prologue. Great soundtrack too, perhaps Bioware's best combat music in particular. Combine it with some of the tracks from Guild Wars: Factions and you have the perfect Sino-weeb playlist.

Sometimes I wonder what could have been had Jade Empire used D20 instead of KotOR and if KotOR used JE's system. Would have been interesting to be able to dabble more heavily into armed combat styles with proper itemization and other loot.
 

Bigg Boss

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Did it have blood in it? Blood is apparently so mature Total War makes it DLC so maybe that was it.
 

gurugeorge

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To this day I have no idea why this received a mature rating. Barely an RPG, but still, I quite enjoyed the romp through a fantasy China. It successfully pulled the look straight out of my imagination, in particular that village area right after the prologue. Great soundtrack too, perhaps Bioware's best combat music in particular. Combine it with some of the tracks from Guild Wars: Factions and you have the perfect Sino-weeb playlist.

Sometimes I wonder what could have been had Jade Empire used D20 instead of KotOR and if KotOR used JE's system. Would have been interesting to be able to dabble more heavily into armed combat styles with proper itemization and other loot.

Yeah good point, you'd think that complex martial arts styles would be better represented by tactical gameplay, and the fairly simplistic combat of Star Wars by a more action-oriented style.
 
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Yeah good point, you'd think that complex martial arts styles would be better represented by tactical gameplay, and the fairly simplistic combat of Star Wars by a more action-oriented style.
I bet it was because they probably figured nobody would bother with the kung-fu shit if they had a slough of jians and daos at their fingertips. All that would probably get shoehorned into a monk class. Somebody at Bioware desperately wanted that Jackie Chan fantasy to take the helm.
 

gurugeorge

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Also, if it were tactical, you could have the micro-fiddly stuff like wrestling, throws and takedowns, joint locks, etc. (and have it be graphically represented in fully animated detail - yummy!). MA is already chock full of the idea of moves and counter-moves and counter-counter moves, all you need is to get a few real experts in to just outline the various things.

Also, you could have the difference between "qi" based fighting and normal fighting better represented (have it be something to do with CON as the power stat - regardless of bulk, which would be more to do with STR - to represent fascia conditioning and breathing exercises, etc.).
 

wishbonetail

Learned
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Oct 18, 2021
Messages
671
I tried to get into this but about half-way through i realised it felt like watching Disney cartoon and i'm pretty much too old for stuff like this. Gave me the same feeling as Beyond Good and Evil. Decent game, should be fun for kids.
 

Ibn Sina

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I liked the closed fist play though in Jade, some evil choices were hilarious, and got a few chuckles from me. Was quite entertaining.
 

LarryTyphoid

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Sep 16, 2021
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The only wuxia shit I've ever liked is Dragon Ball, and that stops being a wuxia halfway in.
 
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In my current course of running through "middle period" BioWare (after doing KOTOR 2 and running through KOTOR currently, and having done ME a wee while ago), I've gotten into this.

It really deserves more love, but I think the combat just didn't seem to suit most people. Maybe it falls between two stools too much, or something. It's partly "press a button and something awesome happens" (though not quite awesome enough to be fully in that genre), and partly "you need to git gud" (but there's no high ceiling of skill compared to many other action combat games).

Meh, it's good enough for me, there is a bit of a skill level and learning to it, and enough variation in styles between, say, Thousand Cuts (fast) and White Demon (slow) to keep it feeling varied. But the main thing is the quests. Some of them are really very dark indeed. Like, I was just doing the thing with the orphan ghosts and the flood, and I teared up a bit when
the old man buried their bones.

And then on the other hand, you have something quite amusing with mildly witty dialogue, like
finding a husband for a gangstress.
It's all quite refreshing compared to the usual cliched European mediaeval fantasy paste.

There's a peculiar incongruity to it though - I mean, all the Asian stuff in it (the culture, mythology, magic, dress, buildings, etc.) seems to be pretty well researched (from my understanding of those things anyway), but it's all being delivered by whiny American accents and Valley Girl actresses and that type of thing. It's quite a weird effect really (I wonder what the VO was like for the Asian edition?)

I vaguely remember that there's a huge plot twist, though I don't remember the details of it; but I also vaguely remember seeing it coming a mile off at the time (it's kind of hinted in that the story you're given doesn't quite make sense, and the Water Dragon is giving you hints too).

The problem with the combat is the combat sucks. It's just too stiff, movement is too mechanical feeling, and there's no fluidity to it; it's very clearly an action combat system developed by a team stepping outside their comfort zone and they just don't pull it off. I haven't played the game since it came out, but I can't say I remember there being any difficulty.

The setting for the most part didn't really work for me, there's a few nice locations, but for the most part I thought they failed to capture the fantasy China of old Hong Kong movies it sounded like they were going for during development.

It does have some fun choices and characters. Probably the last time there were actually some nice big ones in a BioWare game. Giving that one girl a weapon to kill her attacker I'm pretty sure was a Berserk reference, the late '90s anime had just come out in American (and presumably Canada) a few years before Jade Empire came out.

There were some interesting sounding ideas for the game they really talked up before release that when I played the game on release was surprised were just gone. Theres a location in the game that was originally meant to be your hub base, much like Ebon Hawk in KotOR, you'll still visit it in the final game but it's no long used for that. Originally you'd send out different party members to handle different things taking place around the empire, and you'd have to be mindful of their personalities, because different characters would have different approaches to situations. There was also mean to be a Spirit World, which I guess you could enter at will, looks like it would've been the normal locations but it's dark and windy...at least that's what it looked like in the demo.
 
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Also, if it were tactical, you could have the micro-fiddly stuff like wrestling, throws and takedowns, joint locks, etc. (and have it be graphically represented in fully animated detail - yummy!). MA is already chock full of the idea of moves and counter-moves and counter-counter moves, all you need is to get a few real experts in to just outline the various things.

Also, you could have the difference between "qi" based fighting and normal fighting better represented (have it be something to do with CON as the power stat - regardless of bulk, which would be more to do with STR - to represent fascia conditioning and breathing exercises, etc.).

If it was tactical there's no way in hell they would've gotten into that type of minutia. I mean, first of all, game's with tactical combat rarely go beyond surface level punches and kicks for hand-to-hand combat. The last game I can remember that does what you're talking about is '99s Hybrid Heavan on the N64...which is a Japanese game, and Japan actually had a history (which the West really doesn't) of wrestling RPGS.

But that's all kind of beside the point because you can have wrestling stuff like throws, takedowns, and joint locks in 3D action games...that's what stuff like AKI's N64 wrestling games and the Smackdown games were doing almost a decade before Jade Empire, and it's what AKI's Fight for NY and Urban Reign were doing around the same time Jade Empire came out. If BioWare didn't have any of that stuff on their mind for the action system, they wouldn't have ever done that in a tactical system.

My guess is Jade Empire was originally meant to be a kind of throwback to the old days of the arcade. They never said this during any interviews as far as I remember, but if you look at the games original combat system, back when you didn't have party members fighting with you, it was presented in the manner of a 2D fighting game. Combat still seemed to kind of the same, it didn't look like a good 2D fighting game, it seems to be doing stuff you woundn't really do in a fighting game, but presentation wise it was a 2D fighting game. That combined with the scrolling shooter sections makes me think the original idea for gameplay was basically early '90s arcade. The thing about 2D fighting games is they don't really do wrestling game stuff like you're talking about, so that was probably not even a headspace they were in with the games combat system even when moving it to fully 3D. I'd guess the move only happened because people complained when they heard you didn't take party members into combat with you, and BioWare couldn't reconciles more than 2 characters on the screen in a 2D fighting game presentation despite that being in things like Fatal Fury, Smash Bros, Capcom's VS games with Marvel, and Guardian Heroes on the Sega Saturn.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
I stopped playing bioware games after BG1. None of them are any good.
What's wrong with BG2?
e45.jpg
 

gurugeorge

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In my current course of running through "middle period" BioWare (after doing KOTOR 2 and running through KOTOR currently, and having done ME a wee while ago), I've gotten into this.

It really deserves more love, but I think the combat just didn't seem to suit most people. Maybe it falls between two stools too much, or something. It's partly "press a button and something awesome happens" (though not quite awesome enough to be fully in that genre), and partly "you need to git gud" (but there's no high ceiling of skill compared to many other action combat games).

Meh, it's good enough for me, there is a bit of a skill level and learning to it, and enough variation in styles between, say, Thousand Cuts (fast) and White Demon (slow) to keep it feeling varied. But the main thing is the quests. Some of them are really very dark indeed. Like, I was just doing the thing with the orphan ghosts and the flood, and I teared up a bit when
the old man buried their bones.

And then on the other hand, you have something quite amusing with mildly witty dialogue, like
finding a husband for a gangstress.
It's all quite refreshing compared to the usual cliched European mediaeval fantasy paste.

There's a peculiar incongruity to it though - I mean, all the Asian stuff in it (the culture, mythology, magic, dress, buildings, etc.) seems to be pretty well researched (from my understanding of those things anyway), but it's all being delivered by whiny American accents and Valley Girl actresses and that type of thing. It's quite a weird effect really (I wonder what the VO was like for the Asian edition?)

I vaguely remember that there's a huge plot twist, though I don't remember the details of it; but I also vaguely remember seeing it coming a mile off at the time (it's kind of hinted in that the story you're given doesn't quite make sense, and the Water Dragon is giving you hints too).

The problem with the combat is the combat sucks. It's just too stiff, movement is too mechanical feeling, and there's no fluidity to it;

That's interesting, you clearly have a far deeper knowledge of these types of games than I do. Can you link me an example of what you would consider more fluid, like a link to a YT vid or something? Or is it specifically responsiveness you're talking about?

Re. more wrestly-throwy stuff not being tactical - it is quite tactical, even if you're not talking about the extreme of Brazilian Ju Jitsu (which is literally physical Chess). It's all about dem moves and counter-moves and counter-counter-moves. And I think that RPS aspect could be quite interesting as one fighting style or component within a tactical RPG (especially if it's more towards the simmy side, trying to be realistic). e.g. in one turn you could make a move and the opponent has a chance of doing a counter, depending on their level of skill, that type of thing, and you have to pick a counter to that - all within one move, say.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,010
In my current course of running through "middle period" BioWare (after doing KOTOR 2 and running through KOTOR currently, and having done ME a wee while ago), I've gotten into this.

It really deserves more love, but I think the combat just didn't seem to suit most people. Maybe it falls between two stools too much, or something. It's partly "press a button and something awesome happens" (though not quite awesome enough to be fully in that genre), and partly "you need to git gud" (but there's no high ceiling of skill compared to many other action combat games).

Meh, it's good enough for me, there is a bit of a skill level and learning to it, and enough variation in styles between, say, Thousand Cuts (fast) and White Demon (slow) to keep it feeling varied. But the main thing is the quests. Some of them are really very dark indeed. Like, I was just doing the thing with the orphan ghosts and the flood, and I teared up a bit when
the old man buried their bones.

And then on the other hand, you have something quite amusing with mildly witty dialogue, like
finding a husband for a gangstress.
It's all quite refreshing compared to the usual cliched European mediaeval fantasy paste.

There's a peculiar incongruity to it though - I mean, all the Asian stuff in it (the culture, mythology, magic, dress, buildings, etc.) seems to be pretty well researched (from my understanding of those things anyway), but it's all being delivered by whiny American accents and Valley Girl actresses and that type of thing. It's quite a weird effect really (I wonder what the VO was like for the Asian edition?)

I vaguely remember that there's a huge plot twist, though I don't remember the details of it; but I also vaguely remember seeing it coming a mile off at the time (it's kind of hinted in that the story you're given doesn't quite make sense, and the Water Dragon is giving you hints too).

The problem with the combat is the combat sucks. It's just too stiff, movement is too mechanical feeling, and there's no fluidity to it;

That's interesting, you clearly have a far deeper knowledge of these types of games than I do. Can you link me an example of what you would consider more fluid, like a link to a YT vid or something? Or is it specifically responsiveness you're talking about?

Re. more wrestly-throwy stuff not being tactical - it is quite tactical, even if you're not talking about the extreme of Brazilian Ju Jitsu (which is literally physical Chess). It's all about dem moves and counter-moves and counter-counter-moves. And I think that RPS aspect could be quite interesting as one fighting style or component within a tactical RPG (especially if it's more towards the simmy side, trying to be realistic). e.g. in one turn you could make a move and the opponent has a chance of doing a counter, depending on their level of skill, that type of thing, and you have to pick a counter to that - all within one move, say.

Even without really any direct comparison to other games, stuff like your evasion moves just look and feel off, (and with movement in combat) and attacks like punches just kinda lack impact from what I remember of it. It wanted to be this action game, but the action gameplay was more something you had to put up with for the other aspects. Thankfully thought the normal fighting stuff wasn't anywhere as bad as the shooting sections which I've got to think they knew sucked since they just let you skip those; being a fan of those in the arcade it was an aspect I was looking forward to playing since it got talked up before the game came out, but after playing one of them I just skipped the others.

Heres some games with much nicer feeling combat and tighter controls, that are also doing martial arts stuff, and also have some wrestling or grappling aspect to them. These all would've come out around the same time as Jade Empire.









These games are a take on the AKI N64 wrestling games (two of them are AKI games) which started in the late '90s. Now, like, I'm bringing those game up because you said the grappling thing, and they're basically 3D beat 'em up gameplay, but I also think if Jada Empire had copied something like Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance or Raven's X-Men Legends they would've ended up with a better feeling action combat system than what they ended up with; or at least those games themselves also happen to have better action gameplay.

I kind of wish Jade Empire had stayed with whatever the hell was going on with the kind of pseudo 2D fighting game version of its combat. It didn't look good either, (kind of looked like a 3D Mortal Kombat) I'm not sure how it would've worked, but it would've been pretty different from everything else at the time. Guardian Heroes and Odin Sphere however are a bit like 2D fighting game RPGs, and there is Capcom's Red Earth/War-Zard which has a linear level up system.

 

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