Game News Jeff Vogel Responding To Critics

[Humanity has risen!]

Hey, man, you might like my games. You might not like them. But if you want to proclaim to the world how truly terrible they are and you have any interest in being the slightest bit fair and reasonable, you might want to mention you've only played a sliver of the game.

I've now explained why I made the game the way I did. I am listening to this feedback and bearing it in mind. But I only REALLY listen to people who want to be fair and reasonable.

Anyway, don't forget we have a money-back guarantee. I don't want you to live in resentment for tricking you into wasting your money on my lousy (in the first fraction) game.

Anyway, thanks to this exchange, I think I understand where my detractors are coming from a little better. I think you might understand me a little better too. One can hope. I am now bowing out of this thread.

- Jeff Vogel

And he disabled comments.

To be fair I wonder how I would feel if I had spent all my time and energy for close to two years making a game. I'd probably be very defensive about it.

Considering how sensitive Jeff seems to be, maybe he should have made this topic after some more time had passed after release.

Also didn't he make a post saying that he never visited threads about his games on forums? Seems like he can't help but let curiosity get the best of him.

 

[Sceptic]

@Dan: Oh, one other thing.

"99% of the comments I read on RPGCodex about Spiderweb games (EXCEPT for Avadon) are positive."

Nonsense.

I have actually been following RPG Codex threads about me for a while. It's due diligence, really, though I'm about to stop. That RPG Codex has always been full of love for me is demonstrably untrue. Just look at old threads about my games and blog articles. You will find long stretches of nothing but pure, undiluted bile.

I honestly was surprised by your comment. I completely did not expect that someone would actually pretend that RPG Codex is full of love for me! I mean, dude! Google exists! Anyone who cared could look up and see a long litany of hate, going well back.

And, since I like to prove things I say, here is an example, because I dared to write something about a game that wasn't entirely critical ...

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58240

"The guy who wrote this is worthy of clinical retardation papers. "

- Jeff Vogel

Oh god, please, PLEASE tell me he didn't just do this. Someone please tell me he didn't just prove that the Codex hates his games by linking to a thread that is about his review of a BIOWARE GAME.

I actually had to go find his blog post and make sure that this was a real quote. And then I had to make sure this really was the thread he had linked to.

Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies Vogel? Congratulations, you've just managed to make the prophecy, fulfill it AND come out as an utter moron in one single post.

 

[Data4]

I'm a tried and true graphics whore. I'm sorry, but there it is. I played old school games when they were new and shiny, but as graphics improved, so did my tolerance. I won't say that graphics level is equal to mechanics, but for me, it's hard to go back to simplistic and/or pixelated graphics and get any sort of immersion going on.

Yes, immersion. It's a favorite thing to bash around here, and I get the reason. But every one of you fuckers know that if you can't get some sense of immersion from a game, it decreases the amount of enjoyment. It's a subjective thing. You may be able to get immersed with a spreadsheet, but I can't.

I'm saying this because I've been kicking around the possibility of looking into one of Jeff's games. I'd been leaning towards the later Avernum games, and Avadon was also a possibility. The problem was whether or not I could get into the games due to the graphics being what they were. Bash me all you want, but it's my opinion, and my time and money that would be spent.

Thankfully, Jeff has helped me decide. I'll spend my money elsewhere. I'm not going to support whining of this level. And no, I won't even think about torrenting it either. I've got better things to waste my time on torrenting, like Brazillian Fart Porn or something like that.

 

[Fowyr]

Emotional Vampire's prophecy is now true

http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=758798#758798

 

[Clockwork Knight]

@Dan: Oh, one other thing.

"99% of the comments I read on RPGCodex about Spiderweb games (EXCEPT for Avadon) are positive."

Nonsense.

I have actually been following RPG Codex threads about me for a while. It's due diligence, really, though I'm about to stop. That RPG Codex has always been full of love for me is demonstrably untrue. Just look at old threads about my games and blog articles. You will find long stretches of nothing but pure, undiluted bile.

I honestly was surprised by your comment. I completely did not expect that someone would actually pretend that RPG Codex is full of love for me! I mean, dude! Google exists! Anyone who cared could look up and see a long litany of hate, going well back.

And, since I like to prove things I say, here is an example, because I dared to write something about a game that wasn't entirely critical ...

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58240

"The guy who wrote this is worthy of clinical retardation papers. "

- Jeff Vogel

Oh god, please, PLEASE tell me he didn't just do this. Someone please tell me he didn't just prove that the Codex hates his games by linking to a thread that is about his review of a BIOWARE GAME.

I actually had to go find his blog post and make sure that this was a real quote. And then I had to make sure this really was the thread he had linked to.

Ever heard of self-fulfilling prophecies Vogel? Congratulations, you've just managed to make the prophecy, fulfill it AND come out as an utter moron in one single post.

That's because Vogel apparently can't distinguish between "love for me" and "love for my games".

 

[bhlaab]

Is his argument really "don't judge my game based on the demo"

THAT'S WHAT A DEMO IS FOR

so criticism doesn't count if you only play the demo, or if you pirate it. So I guess the only way you can possibly have an opinion is by giving Vogel $25. Nice how that works out.

 

[Nim]

To be fair I wonder how I would feel if I had spent all my time and energy for close to two years making a game. I'd probably be very defensive about it.

Considering how sensitive Jeff seems to be, maybe he should have made this topic after some more time had passed after release.

Also didn't he make a post saying that he never visited threads about his games on forums? Seems like he can't help but let curiosity get the best of him.

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/ ... never.html

Over the years, I've developed a pretty thick skin. And yet, if you read lots of people dumping on you, unless you have super-human emotional control, it's eventually going to get to you. Sometimes I'll get weak and look at a forum and see some nasty cheap shot and it'll throw me off my game for hours.

What I don't get is why is he so butthurt about the codex reactions if Avadon is selling very well ?

 

[Aikanaro]

Feeling generally disappointed at Vogel. Probably not enough to affect my purchasing decisions, but still makes me a bit less enthusiastic about it. If he wants to defend his design decisions, that's fine - but insulting the community and telling them that they're wrong for not liking his game is stupid.

Why does he think we don't like his other games, anyway? I really don't understand that one.

 

[Pope Amole]

What I don't get is why is he so butthurt about the codex reactions if Avadon is selling very well ?

Maybe because it is not selling very well? After all, we've got to trust his word on this one and, seeing how angry he was at the codex, he could've been a wee bit dishonest on this part just to spite us. Of course, this may be wishful thinking, but if my new game were selling as hot cakes despite the old fanbase ramblings, would I give a damn about those ramblings? Nope, and no one would. So...

Of course, it could be another thing - perhaps Bioware and it's followers (one of whom Vogel definitely is) want to turn Codex into an online bogeyman, meaning that here we're hateful/homophobic/misoginyc/etc., basically, that we're bastards and if we hate something then it's definitely good for your average casual fag. That's quite a danger, to be honest, because it will kill the meaning of proud codexian rage since said rage will only further agenda of the decliners - oh, if they rage at it, it's good, if they praise it, it's also good, a truly biowarian choice implemented in reality.

 

[Elwro]

perhaps Bioware and its followers (one of whom Vogel definitely is) want to turn Codex into an online bogeyman, meaning that here we're hateful/homophobic/misoginyc/etc.,

We managed to do that ourselves.

 

[curry]

Not gonna even download his garbage games now.

 

[MuscleSpark]

it will kill the meaning of proud codexian rage since said rage will only further agenda of the decliners - oh, if they rage at it, it's good, if they praise it, it's also good, a truly biowarian choice implemented in reality.

You just blew my mind dude.

 

[Crooked Bee]

The most insightful post in this thread.

Anywayz. Jeff is full of lies. There's a been A LOT of praise for his previous games on the Codex; there was a lot of bile and trolling as well, true, but that's just the way it is around here, and provided this is the Codex we can, I think, safely say his previous games were generally liked here; some liked the Geneforge series better, some the Avernums or Exiles, but what Jeff doesn't seem to get is that he's probably received more praise on the Codex than any other contemporary dev apart from Obsidian. Too bad he's in denial as he is and only wants unanimous praise.

 

[thesisko]

I think the main beef RPG Codex people have is that I didn't bring out those crazy, complex fights at the beginning. This would be pleasing a tiny handful and excluding everyone else. Not good design, in my book.

I admit that Avadon simply might require more patience from hardcore gamers than a lot of them will be willing to give. I just might not write games you/they will like anymore. More's the pity.

Maybe the uncomplex, boring part of the game could be called "tutorial" and be optional and skippable.

I wonder how he came to the conclusion that the majority of his customers have never played a game before in their life and having more than 1 button to push at the start would be too overwhelming. I guess he doesn't expect many repeat customers.

 

[Trash]

Demos of rpg's always seem to be of the tutorial and rpg tutorial's are inevitably lame. Any rpg's out there that had a fun tutorial? Baldur's Gate 2 anyone? Fallout 2? Bloodlines? Arcanum's beginning?

The only rpg I remember to have had a good demo was Fallout. Then again, they especially made a small village for it that never became part of the real game.

 

[Spectacle]

I think the main beef RPG Codex people have is that I didn't bring out those crazy, complex fights at the beginning. This would be pleasing a tiny handful and excluding everyone else. Not good design, in my book.

I admit that Avadon simply might require more patience from hardcore gamers than a lot of them will be willing to give. I just might not write games you/they will like anymore. More's the pity.

Maybe the uncomplex, boring part of the game could be called "tutorial" and be optional and skippable.

I wonder how he came to the conclusion that the majority of his customers have never played a game before in their life and having more than 1 button to push at the start would be too overwhelming. I guess he doesn't expect many repeat customers.

Seems like he's imagining that he can sell to the casual crowd rather than a "tiny handfull" of hardcore RPG lovers who follow gaming media closely enough to know his games even exist. If he want's to sell to the casual crowd then he's going to need AAA development and marketing budgets. Maybe he should simply get a job at Bioware?

 

[Johannes]

I've been arguing with Jeff about Avadon on his blog and he asked me to post the following here on the Codex for your enjoyment. It's his position that we're drawing conclusions without seeing more of the game. In my opinion a game, like a book, should be enthralling from the start. I shouldn't be working to reach a point that I enjoy. He should have worked to bring that point of enjoyment to me from the start.

@John: So when you say "Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in Avadon."

what you mean is

"Positioning. Smart usage of resources. Puzzle solving. Cleverness. I just don't see it in the first 15% or so of Avadon."

I'm sorry you didn't like the game and the first little fraction of it bored you. But this, THIS is why I have been neglected feedback from your corner of the internet. By not mentioning what portion of the game you played, your post was so misleading as to be borderline libelous.

If they don't like the demo, they don't like it, but they shouldn't pretend they comprehend the whole game.

You see, I've gotten and read tons of feedback about Avadon. Most gamers I've heard from find the Shadow Beasts (about where you quit the game) fights to be challenging and an appropriate ramping up of complexity.

That is part of designing a good game, you know. Designing for everyone, not just the super-hardcorez. The later fights in Avadon ARE more complicated and require careful tactics, but the place where you quit is the wrong place for those fights. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I think the main beef RPG Codex people have is that I didn't bring out those crazy, complex fights at the beginning. This would be pleasing a tiny handful and excluding everyone else. Not good design, in my book.

I admit that Avadon simply might require more patience from hardcore gamers than a lot of them will be willing to give. I just might not write games you/they will like anymore. More's the pity.

Dammit Vogel, that's what the difficulty slider is for. The highest difficulty should be brutal throughout the game, so that you cater to the super-hardcorez better. Sure the same issue about too easy early-game regardless of difficulty is a common one in your previous games too, but don't try to say it has to be that way. It was always the worst thing about his games, only a handful of fights are truly interesting and somehow he says that's the proper way to do it...

I do realize that big portion of his audience is actually pretty casual, more than people here might think, but I don't think even they'd mind complexity in itself, if the fights are easy on their difficulty level. Did people actually complain to him that there's overwhelmingly many spells to try in the beginning in Avernums or Geneforges, I doubt it.

 

[Kraszu]

Yes, immersion. It's a favorite thing to bash around here, and I get the reason. But every one of you fuckers know that if you can't get some sense of immersion from a game, it decreases the amount of enjoyment. It's a subjective thing. You may be able to get immersed with a spreadsheet, but I can't.

Based also on some other post of yours, you seem like a somebody who doesn't believe that other people may actually experience things differently then you. And no what you had written about immersion is completely untrue for me I find more abstract things way more engaging. Nice graphics, and art does make exploration more appealing but not because of immersion.

Demos of rpg's always seem to be of the tutorial and rpg tutorial's are inevitably lame. Any rpg's out there that had a fun tutorial? Baldur's Gate 2 anyone? Fallout 2? Bloodlines? Arcanum's beginning?

The only rpg I remember to have had a good demo was Fallout. Then again, they especially made a small village for it that never became part of the real game.

Didn't Gothic/G2/Risen had good demos? It is sad that even with game controlled by few buttons you have retards who can't figure out how to play the game without a tutorial. Tutorials in crpgs are not for casual, they are for mentally challenged, there is nothing intellectually challenging in paying say FO as your first crpg without a tutorial.

 

[Data4]

Yes, immersion. It's a favorite thing to bash around here, and I get the reason. But every one of you fuckers know that if you can't get some sense of immersion from a game, it decreases the amount of enjoyment. It's a subjective thing. You may be able to get immersed with a spreadsheet, but I can't.

Based also on some other post of yours, you seem like a somebody who doesn't believe that other people may actually experience things differently then you. And no what you had written about immersion is completely untrue for me I find more abstract things way more engaging. Nice graphics, and art does make exploration more appealing but not because of immersion.

What? I think you need to re-read my posts. Starting with the bit you quoted, but evidently summarily dismissed before saying what you did.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2011/01/three-reasons-creators-should-never.html

Over the years, I've developed a pretty thick skin. And yet, if you read lots of people dumping on you, unless you have super-human emotional control, it's eventually going to get to you. Sometimes I'll get weak and look at a forum and see some nasty cheap shot and it'll throw me off my game for hours.

What I don't get is why is he so butthurt about the codex reactions if Avadon is selling very well ?

pretty thick skin

makes a self-reassuring "you're just HATERS" blog post after reading some negative criticism on a forum known to have strong opinions

I don't think so, Tim.

 

[Kraszu]

Yes, immersion. It's a favorite thing to bash around here, and I get the reason. But every one of you fuckers know that if you can't get some sense of immersion from a game, it decreases the amount of enjoyment. It's a subjective thing. You may be able to get immersed with a spreadsheet, but I can't.

Based also on some other post of yours, you seem like a somebody who doesn't believe that other people may actually experience things differently then you. And no what you had written about immersion is completely untrue for me I find more abstract things way more engaging. Nice graphics, and art does make exploration more appealing but not because of immersion.

What? I think you need to re-read my posts. Starting with the bit you quoted, but evidently summarily dismissed before saying what you did.

If you would define immersion as simply findings things more engaging, then it is rather obviously needed to enjoy something. People that talk about immersion on codex talk about it in the meaning of feeling like being there, that isn't the same thing as finding something abstract engaging.

You either the world with one of the meaning or the other, you can't flip flop, and use the term in different meaning. It doesn't construct an argument, or a coherent though it just make an appearance of one, big part of philosophy covers that.

 

[felipepepe]

Yes, immersion. It's a favorite thing to bash around here, and I get the reason. But every one of you fuckers know that if you can't get some sense of immersion from a game, it decreases the amount of enjoyment. It's a subjective thing. You may be able to get immersed with a spreadsheet, but I can't.

Based also on some other post of yours, you seem like a somebody who doesn't believe that other people may actually experience things differently then you. And no what you had written about immersion is completely untrue for me I find more abstract things way more engaging. Nice graphics, and art does make exploration more appealing but not because of immersion.

What? I think you need to re-read my posts. Starting with the bit you quoted, but evidently summarily dismissed before saying what you did.

The re-read the post was clearly about him saying that yes, he belives that other people have diferrent experiences, but FOR HIM it doesn't work like that. As he said, immersion "it's a subjective thing". I don't know how so many guys here say they love text-heavy RPG's, but are unable to understand a simple 2 lines post.

And yeah Data4, I agree with you. Some people here just can't stand games like Etrian Odissey, just because the art-style is japanese (even though is a western style dungeon crawler), and it breaks their immersion. They are the same as the ones that hate roguelikes ASCII graphics. Neither of them are "graphics whores", they just have different tastes. Something is quite hard for people here to understand, it seems.

 

[Kraszu]

The re-read the post was clearly about him saying that yes, he belives that other people have diferrent experiences, but FOR HIM it doesn't work like that. As he said, immersion "it's a subjective thing". I don't know how so many guys here say they love text-heavy RPG's, but are unable to understand a simple 2 lines post.

Oh god, let me try to streamline the thinking for you, he first say that:
1)Yes, immersion. It's a favourite thing to bash around here, and I get the reason.
So in other words he is talking about immersion in the meaning of "feeling to be there" that is criticizing on the codex.
2)But every one of you fuckers know that if you can't get some sense of immersion from a game, it decreases the amount of enjoyment.
To make it relevant to the first sentence he must define immersion as in the first sentence. Notice that he had said every one so no he doesn't acknowledge that people have different experiences when it comes to immersion.
3)It's a subjective thing. You may be able to get immersed with a spreadsheet, but I can't.
He gets confused, and uses the world in different meaning then before, or else nothing that he had written makes any sense, it is a common mistake so I had ignored that attempt at making an argument.

If he meant to define immersion differently, then how he defines it? Maybe I am wrong, and I just didn't read people criticizing immersion defined differently then "feeling to be there" on the codex.

 

[WetWorks]

Demos of rpg's always seem to be of the tutorial and rpg tutorial's are inevitably lame. Any rpg's out there that had a fun tutorial? Baldur's Gate 2 anyone? Fallout 2? Bloodlines? Arcanum's beginning?

The only rpg I remember to have had a good demo was Fallout. Then again, they especially made a small village for it that never became part of the real game.

The KOTC demo was a pretty good too, told you everything about the games design, its system, graphics and difficulty. Of course it also dealt with a portion that wasnt in the game.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Why is he focusing on the negative criticisms about his game so much? If they are such a minority as he claims, then why make an issue of it? He needs thicker skin. He comes off as very childish and unprofessional. Not everyone is going to like your game. In fact, at least half of the people that play it will likely either think it is mediocre or hate it. I think the fact he blasts the codex shows some sort of insecurity on his part. If the game is doing well and he is making sales, he shouldn't fret over the harsh nature of the Codex. The Codex is a place full of anarchy and expecting people to hold their tongues here is an silly expectation. I also think it is unfair for him to focus on the Codex as a whole and not give credit to those that do give useful feedback. If someone posts nothing but insults towards your game, of course you should consider ignoring them as if they can't offer even a single thing they liked, they would have to clearly show that said game truly is of such a level of being an abomination.

Vogel, you need to take the Codex with a grain of salt. Chill out, be objective about your work and your fans and continue to work on your games.