Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[Prime Junta]

Resting between every encounter shouldn't be viable but maybe the unrestricted resting itself is the root of the problem?

The problem is trying to solve that by designing around it.

Don't allow resting in dungeons? Players will just trek back to the village to rest after every fight -> rote and boring.
Require resting resources? Players will hoard them and then trek back to the village to buy more -> rote and boring.
Add timers? That can lead to players losing and we can't have that now, can we?
Add time-based attrition, e.g. the MotB spirit eater curse? Well we know how that was received.*
Eliminate per-rest resources? -> yeah, well, Deadfire.

*by the unwashed masses; as it is it's a terrific retard detector, if you rage about it, you're a retard

...and so on and so forth.

After thinking about this very important shit really hard I've come to the conclusion that the only way to go is to ignore the problem. Have unrestricted resting. If players want to rest-spam, let them rest-spam. If players don't want to rest-spam, more power to them. Any attempt to solve it will do nothing at best, or make the game actively worse at worst.

Personally I like resources and time-based attrition, but neither materially affects my behaviour because I already don't rest-spam, they just reward me for doing what I'd do anyway, so I can't say they address the problem. They're minor enough however that they could be an optional "survival" mode, with the base game balanced around the assumption that players will rest between every fight.

 

[ga♥]

I don't believe that Pillars of Eternity 1 success was merely because of the kickstarter hype and nostalgia factor, sure it was part of it but not quite all of it, because to this day PoE 1 is still active.
[...]
PoE 1 had an appeal... a spirit of the old games

 

[Desolate Dancer]

Holy shit! Does using Elmex makes me a soyboi too? I use only the green one though!

 

[molotov.]

I don't believe that Pillars of Eternity 1 success was merely because of the kickstarter hype and nostalgia factor, sure it was part of it but not quite all of it, because to this day PoE 1 is still active.
[...]
PoE 1 had an appeal... a spirit of the old games

Boomer's humour... even worse when they are american.

 

[Cross]

I was instantly disinterested with PoE 2 due to the premise: your fortress is destroyed. The crowning achievement of the first game is destroyed off-screen. You've completed the first game? Fuck you.

It's Disney Star Wars all over again.

Don't forget resetting the player back to level 1, thus defeating the whole point of making a sequel with the same protagonist. (Though if Deadfire's sales are any indication, nobody was interested in continuing the Watcher's adventures in the first place.)

 

[Desolate Dancer]

The problem is trying to solve that by designing around it.

Don't allow resting in dungeons? Players will just trek back to the village to rest after every fight -> rote and boring.
Require resting resources? Players will hoard them and then trek back to the village to buy more -> rote and boring.
Add timers? That can lead to players losing and we can't have that now, can we?
Add time-based attrition, e.g. the MotB spirit eater curse? Well we know how that was received.*
Eliminate per-rest resources? -> yeah, well, Deadfire.

*by the unwashed masses; as it is it's a terrific retard detector, if you rage about it, you're a retard

...and so on and so forth.

Again, you may have the following solution:
- resting in urban areas are possible at Inns (this costs money)
- resting in dungeons are possible in Reinforced Rooms (this may be limited to once per dungeon per room, or alternatively punish "extra resting" with respawning enemies/interruptions that further drains the party's resources)
- resting in wilderness areas are possible at Campsites/Caves (which may or may not have random interruptions, depending on your difficulty setting/options)

So no infinite resting, no "camping supplies", no timers and no gimmicks. Just traditional, visual and intuitive resting locations and defensible shelters.

Even then, you may always decide to backtrack ofc to a nearest inn, but this is a decision that we cannot affect in any shape or way, and why would we care about it in the first place in a single-player game?

 

[Tigranes]

I wonder if you could simply design resting options/resources into each dungeon in an organic way.

E.g. some dungeons might simply involve finding blockadable rooms that are strategically placed - beat a boss, that room turns out to be blockadable, after a single rest it's no longer usable because you have to break down another section of the wall to go deeper into the dungeon or someshit.

Or another dungeon where you find a stack of wooden beams or someshit that you pick up and use to blockade & rest at a room of your choosing.

All of which involves a small degree of contrivance, but the point would be that every single dungeon, the designer has thought about what kind of resting might be made available to the player, and can take that into account to design better paced areas, and discourages backtracking and other bullshit without being annoyingly draconian about it.

Obviously, no matter what you do, some people will insist on traveling back to city to rest then complain it takes 20 minutes, but who cares? That's their prerogative, no need to go out of one's way to forbid them.

 

[Removal]

E.g. some dungeons might simply involve finding blockadable rooms that are strategically placed - beat a boss, that room turns out to be blockadable, after a single rest it's no longer usable because you have to break down another section of the wall to go deeper into the dungeon or someshit.

Gold Box did this to an extent, there was always one or two rooms in a dungeon that were "safe" resting areas, preventing ambush and some dungeons once cleared/boss killed were safe resting as well. They were unlimited though

 

[Steamboat Willie]

I'm glad that I never have to play PoE ever again.

 

[Quillon]

I'm glad that I never have to play PoE ever again.

Damn, what did you do to the guy pointing a gun at your head?

 

[Trashos]

Hold up... if Sawyer’s problem is that pre-buffing “creates a gulf” between newbies and more experienced players, making the game too hard for people who don’t know the mechanics, that’s easily solved. Why not use the game’s plentiful loading screens to give players a tip? I mean, Jesus F. Christ, he’s saying pre-buffing is bad because too many players don’t know they’re supposed to to do it. Just fucking tell them!!!

Imagine it. As you wait for the dungeon to load, the game gives you a helpful hint: “If you encounter a battle that’s too difficult for you to beat, try casting buffs on your whole party before combat.” There, I fixed pre-buffing.

He tried to design a system to be used by people who are not interested in the system at all. With such an attitude, there is no point in trying to teach anyone anything, he just cut everything that could make any player uncomfortable.

And I am not being edgy.

 

[Tigranes]

Hold up... if Sawyer’s problem is that pre-buffing “creates a gulf” between newbies and more experienced players, making the game too hard for people who don’t know the mechanics, that’s easily solved. Why not use the game’s plentiful loading screens to give players a tip? I mean, Jesus F. Christ, he’s saying pre-buffing is bad because too many players don’t know they’re supposed to to do it. Just fucking tell them!!!

Imagine it. As you wait for the dungeon to load, the game gives you a helpful hint: “If you encounter a battle that’s too difficult for you to beat, try casting buffs on your whole party before combat.” There, I fixed pre-buffing.

He tried to design a system to be used by people who are not interested in the system at all. With such an attitude, there is no point in trying to teach anyone anything, he just cut everything that could make any player uncomfortable.

And I am not being edgy.

Sure. We also have people in this same thread saying it was up to Sawyer/Obsidian to build a new and bigger market for games like this, and they failed because they couldn't sell a million copies of Deadfire.

I fully agree with you that POE franchise struggled throughout with what it was supposed to be for whom, and it only got worse with Deadfire. A 1:1 BG clone? A 'modernised casualised' version with bells and whistles (DOS1/2, let us note, have much much simpler systems, we just don't compare it to old school games because it was always a brand new franchise from a studio not known for complex systems)? In the end they failed what was always going to be a tricky balancing act.

 

[Jezal_k23]

I'm wondering, what exactly carried DOS 2 into massive sales and absolute stardom among even casual gamers?

• Was it coop? First game had it also.
• Was it the combat system or gameplay in general? Similar to the first game, and in a lot of cases worse.
• Was it the graphics? It looks good, but DOS 1 looked pretty similar.
• Was it the writing and plot? Uh, Larian has never been very good at this, so I think not.
• Was it the difficulty? I don't think so, and if anything I think the game would still be pretty hard for casual players who have never played a TB game before.
• Was it the full VO? Well. It surely helped, but by all means it doesn't look like this carries a game to massive sales on its own, as Deadfire proved.

I still don't know what exactly happened with DOS 2. Obsidian clearly tried to replicate it, but I don't think they even understood whatever it was that Larian did so well when marketing it, so their attempt failed.

 

[fantadomat]

I'm wondering, what exactly carried DOS 2 into massive sales and absolute stardom among even casual gamers?

• Was it coop? First game had it also.
• Was it the combat system or gameplay in general? Similar to the first game, and in a lot of cases worse.
• Was it the graphics? It looks good, but DOS 1 looked pretty similar.
• Was it the writing and plot? Uh, Larian has never been very good at this, so I think not.
• Was it the difficulty? I don't think so, and if anything I think the game would still be pretty hard for casual players who have never played a TB game before.
• Was it the full VO? Well. It surely helped, but by all means it doesn't look like this carries a game to massive sales on its own, as Deadfire proved.

I still don't know what exactly happened with DOS 2. Obsidian clearly tried to replicate it, but I don't think they even understood whatever it was that Larian did so well when marketing it, so their attempt failed.

The first game carried it. It was an improvement yet the same as the first game. People did enjoy it and then they told their friends,so the thing cached on. A success of a game is weighted by its sequel.

 

[Desiderius]

E.g. some dungeons might simply involve finding blockadable rooms that are strategically placed - beat a boss, that room turns out to be blockadable, after a single rest it's no longer usable because you have to break down another section of the wall to go deeper into the dungeon or someshit.

Gold Box did this to an extent, there was always one or two rooms in a dungeon that were "safe" resting areas, preventing ambush and some dungeons once cleared/boss killed were safe resting as well. They were unlimited though

Cf. Death Knights of Krynn Easter Egg dungeon (NW corner of map), later Pools of Darkness endgame.

 

[Desiderius]

Hold up... if Sawyer’s problem is that pre-buffing “creates a gulf” between newbies and more experienced players, making the game too hard for people who don’t know the mechanics, that’s easily solved. Why not use the game’s plentiful loading screens to give players a tip? I mean, Jesus F. Christ, he’s saying pre-buffing is bad because too many players don’t know they’re supposed to to do it. Just fucking tell them!!!

Imagine it. As you wait for the dungeon to load, the game gives you a helpful hint: “If you encounter a battle that’s too difficult for you to beat, try casting buffs on your whole party before combat.” There, I fixed pre-buffing.

He tried to design a system to be used by people who are not interested in the system at all. With such an attitude, there is no point in trying to teach anyone anything, he just cut everything that could make any player uncomfortable.

And I am not being edgy.

Sure. We also have people in this same thread saying it was up to Sawyer/Obsidian to build a new and bigger market for games like this, and they failed because they couldn't sell a million copies of Deadfire.

I fully agree with you that POE franchise struggled throughout with what it was supposed to be for whom, and it only got worse with Deadfire. A 1:1 BG clone? A 'modernised casualised' version with bells and whistles (DOS1/2, let us note, have much much simpler systems, we just don't compare it to old school games because it was always a brand new franchise from a studio not known for complex systems)? In the end they failed what was always going to be a tricky balancing act.

What’s simpler about them? Stripping two types of armor before you can CC is actually pretty convoluted.

Like Diablo 2 and BG 2, D:OS 2 is overflowing with content. The devs obviously love their game and couldn’t help themselves. Deadfire... doesn’t have that same ambiance.

Lesson: don’t forget to populate you opening island with fun stuff.

 

[Xeon]

I think DOS1 got a lot more successful because of the blue ocean thing Larian talked about, where it got released with no competition for a few months iirc. People tried it and enjoyed it.

I am still in favor of pre-buffing, like several people said, just make time the resource for sleeping so people stop spamming all their spells and sleep after for every fights and then complain about degenerative plays or whatever.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

What’s simpler about them? Stripping two types of armor before you can CC is actually pretty convoluted.

Character building! You also have far fewer potential options in combat.

 

[Roguey]

Or you could, you know, let the dude get his joy of discovery from learning how to pre-buff. Like you did Josh. So much that you played too much at University.

"I've been trying to get through this for two and a half hours."

I doubt Brian Mitsoda (that's who it was) would have been able to figure it out on his own.

Require resting resources? Players will hoard them and then trek back to the village to buy more -> rote and boring.

A limited-but-generous (not too generous obviously) set amount could fix this, but Sawyer's also deathly afraid of the idea of any player hitting a strategic brick wall through playing badly over a long period of time.

 

[Tigranes]

POE is a party-based CRPG with a dozen classes and many different builds - where, regardless of other merits & faults, it is possible to create quite a variety of builds from melee wizards to leaping carnage barbarians, many of which are then amplified by itemisation that is significant enough to make tangible differences in your character. DOS1 had far fewer options to the point that there wasn't really a lot to think about or try in terms of replayable builds; DOS2 had more but was so quickly exhausted that a full 4-person party was overkill.

Again, that's not a comment on the final quality or attractiveness of these games. DOS1 had the sheer pleasure of stringing together overpowered but superfun environmental effects that would have pleased grognards and casuals alike, for example. The point was, DOS was never expected to have a really robust character system built for fun theorycrafting, it wasn't going to be compared to BG, and they found their own way of opening up a new market of players that - at least for DOS1 - succeeded in pleasing many grognards and casuals alike. I think POE was far less successful at this, and that comes down to how they tried to be more ambitious about an old school systems-heavy D&D-inspired system while also trying to modernise and making several bad missteps in how they went about it.

 

[Trashos]

Sure. We also have people in this same thread saying it was up to Sawyer/Obsidian to build a new and bigger market for games like this, and they failed because they couldn't sell a million copies of Deadfire.

I fully agree with you that POE franchise struggled throughout with what it was supposed to be for whom, and it only got worse with Deadfire. A 1:1 BG clone? A 'modernised casualised' version with bells and whistles (DOS1/2, let us note, have much much simpler systems, we just don't compare it to old school games because it was always a brand new franchise from a studio not known for complex systems)? In the end they failed what was always going to be a tricky balancing act.

Yes, I am one of those people.

Personally, I am not buying this excuse anymore. People find New Vegas' hardest difficulty too hard and avoid it, but it did not stop New Vegas from selling several million copies. Some people complain about it, but so what. It did not hurt the financial bottom line.

Secondly, there are franchises that are hard and much more successful than what Obsidian was able to achieve or was shooting for. Going for the retarded crowd was a choice, not necessarily a need.

Lastly, they kinda forgot not to make all companions ugly (talking about PoE1 here, haven't played Deadfire). Somehow they stack to their silly principle that companions have to be ugly for whatever reason, even though it meant that they might lose customers this way, but they didn't stick to any principle regarding game difficulty.

My conclusion is that their efforts have nothing to do with any half-reasonable plan. They just have a retarded culture at the company, that gets more and more retarded as they employ more and more retards, and they act accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised if their local testers are the retarded nieces of their writers.

 

[Nano]

Lastly, they kinda forgot not to make all companions ugly (talking about PoE1 here, haven't played Deadfire).

? Eder, Grieving Mother, Pallegina, etc. aren't ugly (in Pillars 1 at least, Pillars 2's portaits suffer from Baldur's Gate 2 syndrome).

 

[Tigranes]

Sure. We also have people in this same thread saying it was up to Sawyer/Obsidian to build a new and bigger market for games like this, and they failed because they couldn't sell a million copies of Deadfire.

I fully agree with you that POE franchise struggled throughout with what it was supposed to be for whom, and it only got worse with Deadfire. A 1:1 BG clone? A 'modernised casualised' version with bells and whistles (DOS1/2, let us note, have much much simpler systems, we just don't compare it to old school games because it was always a brand new franchise from a studio not known for complex systems)? In the end they failed what was always going to be a tricky balancing act.

Yes, I am one of those people.

Personally, I am not buying this excuse anymore. People find New Vegas' hardest difficulty too hard and avoid it, but it did not stop New Vegas from selling several million copies. Some people complain about it, but so what. It did not hurt the financial bottom line.

Secondly, there are franchises that are hard and much more successful than what Obsidian was able to achieve or was shooting for. Going for the retarded crowd was a choice, not necessarily a need.

Lastly, they kinda forgot not to make all companions ugly (talking about PoE1 here, haven't played Deadfire). Somehow they stack to their silly principle that companions have to be ugly for whatever reason, even though it meant that they might lose customers this way, but they didn't stick to any principle regarding game difficulty.

My conclusion is that their efforts have nothing to do with any half-reasonable plan. They just have a retarded culture at the company, that gets more and more retarded as they employ more and more retards, and they act accordingly. I wouldn't be surprised if their local testers are the retarded nieces of their writers.

Why do you think it is an "excuse"? I am not interested in excusing Obsidian, a company which I once greatly liked but has very obviously lost almost all semblance of vision and talent.

I don't think it excuses Obsidian to point out that DOS1/2 are not systems-heavy/complex games, that they do not offer a lot of replayability based on build variety & theorycrafting, and that their success came from other points of appeal.

And that is the point. There is no simple rule as "more complex, less sales". Casuals will be perfectly fine with relatively complicated systems if they can be enticed with other points of appeal. DOS1 came in with instantly delightful packets of environmental chaos that visually and viscerally set it apart from other RPGs, wrapped in a colourful cartoony style (which I despise but I understand to be popular), the allure of co-op (which people love the idea of more than they actually use), and several other strong points besides. Importantly, DOS1 often could do so while offering convincing olive branches to grognards like nonlinear solutions to quests.

It would be nonsensical to claim that POE failed to be as successful because its systems were more complex. And I don't think anyone said so. The point is that POE had to try and create points of appeal for a wider market in its own way, distinct from how DOS did - and it was not able to do so. Was part of it due to the baggage around it being a BG successor? Yes, of course. But they also profited a great deal from that association, so it's not exactly an excuse, is it?

 

[Steamboat Willie]

Damn, what did you do to the guy pointing a gun at your head?

He tried to make me play PoE. The authorities will never find a trace of him.

 

[Xeon]

If Obsidian asked WotC to make a D&D game, they will obviously pay for the rights, but the IP or the game still belong to WotC as well or Obsidian? Because I think Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale games belong to WotC and not Bioware or Black Isle or something like that, no?