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Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

S.torch

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 4, 2019
Messages
1,116
Seems to me like regardless of this forum's feelings

And how your data contradict the forum's feelings? Pillars of Eternity series is in the 45th position on the Codex 101 Top RPGs. So people here don't totally hate it. But is obvious that the game is very, very far behind games like Kingmaker(13th) or Divinity(29th).

Coincidentally, those two games did it better, too.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,719
KotOR 2, Mask of the Betrayer, and Alpha Protocol are nu-Obsidian according to this.

I imagine the tone of the writing and the player/bisexuality might be the biggest factors here. Companion romances of the past were heterosexual (though Chris wanted Gann to be bi) and written by masculine heterosexual men.
 

Trashos

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2015
Messages
3,413
Instead, pirates and a wondering God was slapped on a New Vegas-like faction-based setting.
This sounds awesome, though. Just not in the way they did it.

I think it sounds exceptionally silly. In a bad way. But I 'll tell you what: You should have been in charge of it. PoEs never looked like the developers enjoyed making them (except maybe the graphics team).
 

LizardWizard

Prophet
Joined
Feb 14, 2014
Messages
1,012
But it was a disaster, FIG investors are not even getting 40% back from their shares,

FIG is stupid and they should have used Kickstarter. Also nobody actually cares about FIG investors getting scammed


Deadfire was commercial disaster I dont think enough of people actually realise this but Deadfire was such epic fail that they sold themselves to Microsoft

It sold less than the POE1, but far from a commercial disaster. Objectively. They turned profit. Obsidian was in a much better finacial position after Deadfire than they were after Fallout New Vegas. Getting bought out was always the end game for ownership.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,732
Pathfinder: Wrath
I think it sounds exceptionally silly. In a bad way. But I 'll tell you what: You should have been in charge of it. PoEs never looked like the developers enjoyed making them (except maybe the graphics team).
Imagine Eothas being a Lady of Pain type god who wanders around the Archipelago trying to do something, but also maybe ...politely suggesting to the inhabitants to follow his portfolio. That's a narrative gold mine right there. Then we have the various factions either trying to work around that or being fanatically devoted to him, or being against it, or not particularly caring but it's affecting them either way etc. It's not the best thing they could've done, but I think it's a better idea if Eothas had to be the center of the conflict, instead of the luminous adra trade or something else.
 
Last edited:

vortex

Fabulous Optimist
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
4,221
Location
Temple of Alvilmelkedic
Imagine Eothas being Lilith

960x0.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,845
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It sold less than the POE1, but far from a commercial disaster. Objectively. They turned profit. Obsidian was in a much better finacial position after Deadfire than they were after Fallout New Vegas. Getting bought out was always the end game for ownership.

So they made their money on the front end, but were more than disappointed with the back end.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
Patron
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
Messages
14,845
Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
KotOR 2, Mask of the Betrayer, and Alpha Protocol are nu-Obsidian according to this.

I imagine the tone of the writing and the player/bisexuality might be the biggest factors here. Companion romances of the past were heterosexual (though Chris wanted Gann to be bi) and written by masculine heterosexual men.

Which is the bulk of the player base. All are welcome... to not take over the joint and act like you own the place.

If the fashion world decided they needed a lot more masculine straight men designing their shit and it was time to get rid of the fags for a change, people wouldn’t like that either.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
34,374
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I'm sure it cost more to produce than Tyranny did. I honestly think the reason Deadfire sold so poorly comes entirely down to PoE having a weak opening. The game does such a bad job of enticing players into its world, most casuals never stuck with it. Then they were supposed to be excited about a direct sequel to the game they didn't finish?

Deadfire's beginning isn't much better either, imo.

The "your ship is attacked by pirates, you wreck on an island and have to repair it" part is cool and a decent beginning to give you motivation.

But the whole "walk slowly along some ghostly path while flashbacks from the first game flash in the back of the screen, then talk to some goddess about some destiny shit before you can even create your character" part was utter shit.

I didn't finish PoE1, but wanted to give Deadfire a try. Why swamp me with exposition about shit I don't care about right in the first couple of minutes? Just let me create my character, drop me on the ship during the pirate attack, and let's go. This is the worst kind of intro you can give to a direct sequel.

People who played the previous game will remember the most important moments. If not, they can be reminded of them when it becomes important. Forcing every player to sit through a 5 minute flashback scene before char gen is just lame. Who cares about that shit?
People who didn't play the first game will have no connection to anything said during this scene, and will feel like they won't get the story if they haven't played the first game. This potentially puts off newcomers to the series.

Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 2 was also a direct sequel that continued the first game's story, but it starts like this:
- some weird creepy dude performs torturous experiments on you
- he tells you that he's doing this because you're the son/daughter of a god
- you have to escape from captivity

It's cool. It tells you the most important plot points (you're a Bhaalspawn, that makes you special and powerful, but also motivates some people to work against you). Short and concise, you know what's going on, the details that don't matter aren't mentioned until they matter. You are introduced to the main antagonist within the first minutes of the game. Nobody throws exposition at you, everything is experienced by your character directly. The only thing you're told is "You're a Bhaalspawn". The torture you are subjected to is shown in a cutscene. You explore Irenicus' lab and pick up notes and books along the way. You exit the lab, there's a fight with cowled wizards who take Imoen in for using magic. Your goal is to get her back and get revenge on Irenicus.

Zero exposition. Only directly experienced plot that gives you an incentive to go forwards.

Meanwhile PoE2: here, have 5 to 10 minutes of mandatory exposition about stuff you don't care about at this point, since you haven't even created a character yet. It's deep, complex stuff about gods, souls, and other metaphysical shit. No, you haven't seen the actual world yet. You have to sit through this metaphysics lesson first.

Who thought that was a good idea?
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
It sold less than the POE1, but far from a commercial disaster.

I guess investors getting less than 40% back from what they originally invested into Deadfire is "far from commercial disaster" I guess Obsidian selling out to Microsoft because Deadfire did not sell at all is once again "far from commercial disaster"

Once again :thisisfine:
 

Butter

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 1, 2018
Messages
8,623
I'm sure it cost more to produce than Tyranny did. I honestly think the reason Deadfire sold so poorly comes entirely down to PoE having a weak opening. The game does such a bad job of enticing players into its world, most casuals never stuck with it. Then they were supposed to be excited about a direct sequel to the game they didn't finish?

Deadfire's beginning isn't much better either, imo.

The "your ship is attacked by pirates, you wreck on an island and have to repair it" part is cool and a decent beginning to give you motivation.

But the whole "walk slowly along some ghostly path while flashbacks from the first game flash in the back of the screen, then talk to some goddess about some destiny shit before you can even create your character" part was utter shit.

I didn't finish PoE1, but wanted to give Deadfire a try. Why swamp me with exposition about shit I don't care about right in the first couple of minutes? Just let me create my character, drop me on the ship during the pirate attack, and let's go. This is the worst kind of intro you can give to a direct sequel.

People who played the previous game will remember the most important moments. If not, they can be reminded of them when it becomes important. Forcing every player to sit through a 5 minute flashback scene before char gen is just lame. Who cares about that shit?
People who didn't play the first game will have no connection to anything said during this scene, and will feel like they won't get the story if they haven't played the first game. This potentially puts off newcomers to the series.

Meanwhile Baldur's Gate 2 was also a direct sequel that continued the first game's story, but it starts like this:
- some weird creepy dude performs torturous experiments on you
- he tells you that he's doing this because you're the son/daughter of a god
- you have to escape from captivity

It's cool. It tells you the most important plot points (you're a Bhaalspawn, that makes you special and powerful, but also motivates some people to work against you). Short and concise, you know what's going on, the details that don't matter aren't mentioned until they matter. You are introduced to the main antagonist within the first minutes of the game. Nobody throws exposition at you, everything is experienced by your character directly. The only thing you're told is "You're a Bhaalspawn". The torture you are subjected to is shown in a cutscene. You explore Irenicus' lab and pick up notes and books along the way. You exit the lab, there's a fight with cowled wizards who take Imoen in for using magic. Your goal is to get her back and get revenge on Irenicus.

Zero exposition. Only directly experienced plot that gives you an incentive to go forwards.

Meanwhile PoE2: here, have 5 to 10 minutes of mandatory exposition about stuff you don't care about at this point, since you haven't even created a character yet. It's deep, complex stuff about gods, souls, and other metaphysical shit. No, you haven't seen the actual world yet. You have to sit through this metaphysics lesson first.

Who thought that was a good idea?
Only an absolute madman would draw inspiration from BG2 when making a sequel to a BG homage.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,296
extinct IE style crap
of which dragon age is a spiritual successor......lol you are retarded.

A successful spiritual successor. Bioware didn't just take the formula and made it in better resolution with some QoL stuff, they made the right changes to how the game plays to stay relevant, people/media didn't try/cover it out of nostalgia, they liked it. But go ahead and argue how it was Sawya's rule system ruined the game for another 345678 posts tho.
 

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