Eternity Josh Sawyer wants to make Pillars of Eternity 3, but only if...

[luj1]

He needs to return (to get some attention)

 

[whydoibother]

Why talk about it (New Vegas), it's completely out of his hands.

Well, now Microsoft owns both Bethesda and Obsidian. And Bethesda had a humbling launch, as well as a few primadona departures, which might make them more available for cooperation.

 

[Yoomazir]

I have a confession to make, I actually wouldn't mind a PoE3, I always liked PoE's lore. Sadly, they'll probably have pink colored side haircut writers for the main story, and companions, too busy jerking about "modern gayming audiences" rather than developing an actual plot.

 

[Rhobar121]

The plot of PoE (as well as the rest of the writing in this game) was so boring that after a month I couldn't remember what the game was about, let alone any of the characters.
I have no idea who this pseudo-philosophical crap they produced was aimed at.
I'm sure the developers were jerking off to this deep and wonderful story.
PoE 2 was only more bearable because the voice acting greatly reduced the amount of crappy text.

 

[Roguey]

PoE 2 was only more bearable because the voice acting greatly reduced the amount of crappy text.

Full voice acting happened mid-development and had no bearing on how much text there was (Deadfire actually has a higher word count than PoE, 900,000 vs 600,000)

 

[AwesomeButton]

I have no idea who this pseudo-philosophical crap they produced was aimed at.

It's the result of designing-by-committee with the objective "it has to be deep and philosophical. Like PST".

 

[Morality Games]

I have a confession to make, I actually wouldn't mind a PoE3, I always liked PoE's lore. Sadly, they'll probably have pink colored side haircut writers for the main story, and companions, too busy jerking about "modern gayming audiences" rather than developing an actual plot.

Sawyer's "D&D but everyone has the mindset and morality of historical early modern civilizations" has its charms if you're extremely patient and dig for it. I have to admire the sheer of amount of thoughtfulness they put into things that aren't part of the game and barely anyone could ever care about (demographics and main import/exports in the enter/exit menu for every hub in the Deadfire, for example). But they still had someone sit down and reason out the trivia anyway.

There's nothing else really quite like it, but it can be hard to get invested in anything when the gods who are trying to monopolize the power of gods and the mortal civilizations who want the power of the gods are all completely unworthy of the power. When quests in RPGs are generally predicated on helping people, it's a problem when the the majority of the quests are about mediating or otherwise resolving disputes between parties none of whom a reasonable person would be interested in helping. In the end, I just had to roll with a Goldpact Knight because the person who seemed most worth helping was myself and it gave me a pretext to explore storylines without having to cultivate a stake in any of the game's in-world ideologies.

I think they are aware of this, which is why they gave the lolz Wael option at the end of the first game and let you have a "No faction" ending in the second game.

My assessment of the in-game ideologies in Deadfire

Huana - their culture (based on caste systems) is dysfunctional and they generally come across as hypocrites. The only reason why they have a nascent nation-state in the first place is because of the decades (centuries?) spanning assistance of the Valians who essentially put Deadfire on the map and made it part of global trade structures. Still, it's "their country" and they have a deeper connection to the land and its mysteries than anyone else, so if you ever fantasized about liberating any of the undeveloped colonies of the early modern period, this is your chance.

Valian Trading Company (front for the Valian Republics) - their position vaguely reminds me of the USA in 1900. They aren't interested in the territorial conquest version of Imperialism but they want to exploit the strategic resources of an undeveloped country. Despite being the continent's most powerful empire in the past, they seem comfortable with their fragmentation into a confederation of republics and don't seem to possess any drive to be an organized military superpower again. Instead, they are classical liberals who think everyone will benefit (but themselves first and foremost) if they can build a global order based on commerce and "the new science" (animacy).

Royal Deadfire Company (front for the Rauatai Empire) - their position reminds me vaguely of Prussia under Frederick the Great, or Rome after conquering Italy, or Macedonia/Greece under Alexander -- they grew up in a tough neighborhood with limited resources and developed an extremely meritocratic and ruthlessly pragmatic military machine to compensate. Contra the Valians (their principal rivals), they represent the "old way" of geopolitical power based on military supremacy and seem to want to use the strategic resources of the Deadfire to create the largest territorial empire they can, with the long term view of conquering all of Eora. The Valians failed, the Aedyran Empire is failing, the Age of the Shark-Orc has come. If you ever wanted to be a naval officer and explorer for any of history's great expansionist empires in order to "build something great", this is your chance.

Principi sen Patrena - basically two factions in one, "Pirates of the Caribbean" pirates (under new blood elf lady Aeldys) and "Black Sails" nation building pirates with a generations spanning wish for their own country (under old guard Furrante, descendant of Valian refugees who resorted to piracy out of material necessity). Aeldys' anarchism just feels like the "No faction" ending with the main character sharing the fame and glory of the age's greatest discovery (the main positive of the No faction ending epilogue is that the entire continent sees the Watcher as an amazing hero and explorer for finding Ukaizo all by himself). Furrante's route feels like the best political outcome for the Deadfire because it solves the pirate epidemic in a proactive, positive way. As an added bonus, because Furrante has the weakest relative position of any of the faction leaders, giving him the power of the gods doesn't do much except put him on parity with the other factions, engineering a regional stalemate -- therefore the threat of looming war that hung over the Deadfire throughout the game is averted and none of these generally unworthy people are able to monopolize the region or threaten Eora as a whole. Everyone survives and can continue pursuing their national interests on a limited basis.

Of course, Furrante built his new state covertly on the backs of slaves, so there's that mark on his record. In addition, it feels like the worst end for you personally because it loses you the most companions and/or leads your companions into their bad endings.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer's an "everyone is terrible" doomer and while that may be realistic, it doesn't make for compelling faction design (as Chris Avellone has pointed out, if you're making factions in a game there should be something about them that makes at least some players excited about wanting to join them).

 

[cyborgboy95]

https://www.gamesradar.com/asked-on...-baldurs-gate-3-features-hed-like-to-riff-on/

Asked once again about Pillars of Eternity 3, Obsidian RPG veteran Josh Sawyer shares what Baldur's Gate 3 features he'd like to riff on​

By Hirun Cryer
published about 3 hours ago
Sawyer points to Baldur's Gate 3's movement as a standout feature
Obsidian studio head Josh Sawyer has revealed which features from Baldur's Gate 3 he'd love to riff on and transplant into a theoretical Pillars of Eternity.

Obviously, Obsidian isn't working on Pillars of Eternity 3 - it's all in on Avowed. That hasn't stopped Sawyer from repeatedly being asked about the possibility of a third game, though, only this time, in the video below, he's taken the time to outline which features from Larian's Baldur's Gate 3 he'd love to use in Pillars of Eternity 3, should it ever get made.

"As a game developer, a lot of times when I look at games, I can't really play them without trying to break down why they're doing what they're doing, and a lot of the success of BG3 is very good execution," Sawyer begins. The Obsidian head believes these things in Baldur's Gate 3 are elements that we've seen before in other games - they're just executed very well in Larian's RPG.

"The things that I think do stand apart in BG3 that I'd like to incorporate into a party-based fantasy game are movement, the way movement works and the jumping, the ability to fly, basically to be able to move through the terrain and more than just walking around," Sawyer continues.

The reasoning behind this is that is "adds a lot not only to the feeling of the world," but also the options the player has for approaching situations and solving problems. It's true: I've seen countless Baldur's Gate 3 player simply jump through or around problems, not to mention quite literally jumping through the entire game in speedruns.

"There's just a very dynamic world, so the fact that the world has so much dynamism in it mechanically," Sawyer continues. "So there's a lot of different things you can do with properties, things being wet or burning or what have you. The ability to pick up so many objects and move them around or break them, that sort of dynamism is very cool."

The Obsidian head reasons that Larian has nailed elements like this in its latest game, because it iterated on them from work on its past games like Divinity: Original Sin and its sequel. With practice comes perfection, so it's not like a new team of developers could just pick up Larian's neat concepts and replicate them perfectly in another game.

Sawyer has previously said he'd love to make Pillars of Eternity 3 - it'd just take a Baldur's Gate 3-sized budget to convince him. If you are after more Pillars of Eternity-shaped action though, then Obsidian's new game could very well be the cure you're after: Avowed is set in Pillars of Eternity's world, and pulls things like spells from the older CRPG into the new experience.

 

[AwesomeButton]

So we are going in circles reinventing forgotten wheels from the 1990s, and saying "wow, great execution"?

I go back to that thread we have about RPGs with immersive sim borrowings

 

[Azarkon]

Sawyer's an "everyone is terrible" doomer and while that may be realistic, it doesn't make for compelling faction design (as Chris Avellone has pointed out, if you're making factions in a game there should be something about them that makes at least some players excited about wanting to join them).

His fixation on realism is precisely why Sawyer will never be able to make a Baldur's Gate 3 or anything close to it.

Could probably make a great turn-based, tactical war game set in 13th century Europe though.

 

[user]

Sawyer's an "everyone is terrible" doomer

Besides the rather meh Eothas chasing thing and how reuniting with your soul didn't make much sense for me, I liked Deadfire narratively. And the impression it left me was the opposite of doom realism - thought it was more on the optimistic side.
I got other minor gripes, but this and especially its system, is what prevents me from really liking the game. If he designs a PoE3, I hope he decides to improve its system as well.

 

[Roguey]

And the impression it left me was the opposite of doom realism - thought it was more on the optimistic side.

Any optimism would be on the players' side. Even when faced with the idea that Eothas is going to destroy the wheel and force kith into a sink-or-swim scenario, none of the factions of the game can agree to work together and still insist on fighting each other to the bitter end. This is the Sawyer way.

 

[Gargaune]

And the impression it left me was the opposite of doom realism - thought it was more on the optimistic side.

Any optimism would be on the players' side. Even when faced with the idea that Eothas is going to destroy the wheel and force kith into a sink-or-swim scenario, none of the factions of the game can agree to work together and still insist on fighting each other to the bitter end. This is the Sawyer way.

Which only further emphasises how Eothas's gambit is batshit crazy. Try telling a live service's sysadmin to shut the servers down without a backup and he'll chase you out with a broomstick, but the supposed "god of wisdom" goes all YOLO on the world's life service and he doesn't even put up a downtime notice.

But if Deadfire's main plot is dubious, it's the narrative design that really scuttles the skiff. I originally meant to write a long screed on the subject but I've long since lost the interest to expend too much effort over Deadfire, so riddle me this - what if the Watcher doesn't pursue Eothas? How do the plot's critical events change if you just decide to kick your feet up on a Neketaka beach and sip margaritas? Nothing, Eothas goes on and destroys the Wheel. All you're doing is chasing after him, your only role in the main event is to find out what he's up to. Oh, sure, you get to make one (and only one!) side request 'cause he admires your persistence, but who gives a crap?

Concerning the final "battle", and this what really vexed me about Sawyer's reaction to this criticism, I remember seeing a response from him along the lines of "we literally told you that you couldn't beat him, what more do you expect?" Yes, Josh, you did! In the final act, the other gods literally tell you something like "I dunno, go see if you can talk him down, not sure what else you could do", there are repeated suggestions through the game that Eothas is beyond your power. One problem, though... "nobody can make that shot on the Death Star", "no way you can carry the Ring across Mordor", "no chance in hell Ford can take Ferrari at Le Mans" etc. etc. et-fucking-cetera! You implemented the precise pattern of setting up impossible odds to overcome in a heroic plot and now you're surprised that the consumer expected the rest of that pattern to play out to the end!

Basically, Deadfire's an RPG about futility. You never stood a chance to begin with, and that's a hard concept to centre yourself around in a genre that's essentially the videogame equivalent of the Bildungsroman. CDPR arguably did a better job in Cyberpunk by shifting the focus, at least in retrospect, to the protagonist's struggle with their own inevitable mortality, how they cope with that, but Deadfire remains fixated on a main event you play no part in. You can make an RPG about failure, but futility?... Your narrative had better sing, and Obsidian's didn't. Oh, and just to twist that knife in, I'll remind you that Durance, in the first Pillars of Eternity, already killed Eothas - that's right, a former companion achieved more than you get to... in his backstory!

Now indulge me for just one more paragraph with what could've been... Eothas is basically a big rock colossus, right? Hey, you know what people have used in the past to "fight" rock? Cannon! Which is to say, exactly the sort of crap you've got lying around on all those ships littering the game. So here goes - you forge an alliance with one or more factions, sail through the storm and then blast Eothas with cannon shot! As his legs crumble under him, he gets one last blow in and smashes the Wheel and they both plummet into the depths. Or, if you chose to go it alone, you arrive at Ukaizo but you don't have enough guns to do the job, Eothas still destroys the Wheel and you've snuck in a nice little Saturday morning cartoon message about the importance of friendship. Either way you achieve two things: 1) you meaningfully rope the factional conflict into the resolution of the main plot, and 2) you turn a story of futility into one of failure. You failed, Eothas succeeded regardless of whether he also fell, and the setting moved where Obsidian wanted it to, but the task was doable!

And I'm not even saying this is how it should've been, this is just an example of what I came up with waiting for the office kettle to boil a few days after I finished the game and I'd expect professional writers and designers to do better. But enough, I ended up writing more than I meant to here anyway.

 

[AwesomeButton]

You implemented the precise pattern of setting up impossible odds to overcome in a heroic plot and now you're surprised that the consumer expected the rest of that pattern to play out to the end!

That's the point. Josh subverts our expectations in his infinite wisdom. "Fuck You: Suck My Dick", Josh Sawyer's ultimate RPG experience.

What annoys me a lot more is nuggets of wokeshit writing genius such as this:

They are practically everywhere. I don't need to search, or cherry-pick. Men incompetent fools, women run the world is an overarching theme.

 

[Quillon]

was "moving in" a thing in 1600-1700s? to be spoken so liberally in a random convo

 

[Butter]

was "moving in" a thing in 1600-1700s? to be spoken so liberally in a random convo

"liberally" being the keyword. California shitlibs write every story and every character the same way. "Oh, this is supposed to be mid-Renaissance? I'll take out the Netflix reference." is about as close as they come to understanding or respecting the setting.

 

[santino27]

It's hard to write in different voices or from different perspectives when your idealogy demands that all other perspectives be rendered invalid and deleted from existence.

 

[AwesomeButton]

was "moving in" a thing in 1600-1700s? to be spoken so liberally in a random convo

"liberally" being the keyword. California shitlibs write every story and every character the same way. "Oh, this is supposed to be mid-Renaissance? I'll take out the Netflix reference." is about as close as they come to understanding or respecting the setting.

That is what I mean when I say the setting is fine but the "narrative designers" are just functionally illiterate zoomers, being kept on the payroll as a form of corporate responsibility. While Avellone has been forced out, mind you. Top managerial strategizing.

Naturally, knowing this makes me very excited about Avowed and about a prospective PoE3.

#yourworldyourway #yassmecwyn

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

was "moving in" a thing in 1600-1700s? to be spoken so liberally in a random convo

They write what they know and want their personality to show in the writing, unfortunately they don't know very much about anything and their personality is horrible. Perhaps all the wokeness in video games isn't being pushed on purpose. It's just all human interaction these people have is pointless small-talk and twitter.

 

[Roguey]

That is what I mean when I say the setting is fine but the "narrative designers" are just functionally illiterate zoomers,

Millennials. There are no zoomer narrative designers at Obsidian to my knowledge.

 

[AwesomeButton]

That is what I mean when I say the setting is fine but the "narrative designers" are just functionally illiterate zoomers,

Millennials. There are no zoomer narrative designers at Obsidian to my knowledge.

Sorry, I just use "zoomer" to designate "the latest brand of stupidity".

 

[Quillon]

That is what I mean when I say the setting is fine but the "narrative designers" are just functionally illiterate zoomers,

Millennials. There are no zoomer narrative designers at Obsidian to my knowledge.

zoomers will save the industry and redefine the rpg!

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

was "moving in" a thing in 1600-1700s? to be spoken so liberally in a random convo

Marriage ceremony was for a long time a thing only rich people did. Commoners were usually just agreeing that they want to be together and then moving in and that was it. However during that time period the ceremony customs might be already gaining popularity among commoners, it's something one has to check out to be sure.

 

[Beastro]

The way JS completely ignores the idea of Fallout NV2 is sad. For whatever reason he prefers not to mention it.

The way he's gone since NV, it's for the best.