Development Info Josh Sawyer's Pillars of Eternity II Postmortem at Digital Dragons 2019

[Deleted Member 22431]

So now every medium studio must spend what they don’t have in order to implement decline features from Dragqueen: Gay Sin 2.

Only indie studios can develop cRPGs without these stupid compromises nowadays.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

He admits that he failed to realize that turn-based RPGs were now more popular than real-time-with-pause

this is kind of bullshit, but ok.

the problem with poe's combat wasn't the lack of turn based, it was that it was boring and uninspired.

you can get a real and fun strategic feel you get from a turn-based game in a rtwp game, but you need to have it be more than various kinds of DPS in different wrappers.

that said, I never got poe2 as I never finished poe1, but unless they completely redid the combat, I can't imagine that it would have been much different.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

at 19:00 he's pretty clear about what I've always said about how the player motive in POE1 was unclear and the pacing poor, especially at the start.

 

[luj1]

He blames the unengaging story, he blames the ship combat, he blames the game being real-time instead of turn-based.

Fine but those things aren't the worst. If the game was mechanically sound and actually... fun to play, all that would be much more bearable.

He doesn't blame balance, or any of his changes to the D&D formula.

Ah, so he blames only that which he didn't have control over. Interesting...


Let's examine some of his "brilliant" ideas (speaking of PoE 1 since that directly made PoE 2 sell like shit).

Imagine exterminating a whole castle full of enemies and getting no EXP? Makes you feel great doesn't it (explanation was controlling over-leveling i.e. maintaining balance). Moving on...

That per-encounter garbage. Directly takes away a tactical layer and makes every encounter identical and banal. Don't need 20 years of tabletop experience to understand this, just common sense. Moving on...

Endurance. One of the most bizarre ideas in the history of RPGs. Clutters gameplay and implemented purely so that players could "not waste time resting and continue playing". Moving on...

Stat gains give no sense of growth. So 1 point of Strength gives 0.03% more DMG. That would make sense in a Diablo game where progression is fast and max level is 100, not 10. Again, just common sense.

Etc, etc.



All that said however, I do not think Sawyer is a bad game designer or anything. I do however think he is an absolutely dreadful lead.

 

[Roguey]

-Most invested demographic are hardcore, and neglecting difficulty is a mistake.

I think it comes down to–in a lot of cases–that instead of people listening to criticism they just know there is criticism and then they decide independent of it that they’re going to change some stuff. So like you said, you made a modest impact, you really struck home with some people that really liked the game, and maybe the execution needed some work. So why not just make the execution of what you were going for so that the next one is totally awesome and those things that people loved about it is now even better. Then if there’s stuff that’s janky about it, yeah change the janky stuff, but not if it’s something that those people that loved the game really liked. Just make it better. I think there’s where things go wrong. People look at something and go, “Ok, so we have this core of people that love the game and this other group that fundamentally hates it, so let’s make it a different game.” And it’s like, “Well… no. They hate the game. They didn’t like anything about it. You’re not going to win those people over. They don’t even like the idea of what you’re making.”

It is my sincere belief that the dissolution of a more-than-decade-long romantic relationship gave him brain damage. It will take him many more years to recover, if he ever does.

 

[HeroMarine]

-Most invested demographic are hardcore, and neglecting difficulty is a mistake.

I think it comes down to–in a lot of cases–that instead of people listening to criticism they just know there is criticism and then they decide independent of it that they’re going to change some stuff. So like you said, you made a modest impact, you really struck home with some people that really liked the game, and maybe the execution needed some work. So why not just make the execution of what you were going for so that the next one is totally awesome and those things that people loved about it is now even better. Then if there’s stuff that’s janky about it, yeah change the janky stuff, but not if it’s something that those people that loved the game really liked. Just make it better. I think there’s where things go wrong. People look at something and go, “Ok, so we have this core of people that love the game and this other group that fundamentally hates it, so let’s make it a different game.” And it’s like, “Well… no. They hate the game. They didn’t like anything about it. You’re not going to win those people over. They don’t even like the idea of what you’re making.”

It is my sincere belief that the dissolution of a more-than-decade-long romantic relationship gave him brain damage. It will take him many more years to recover, if he ever does.

You were not that good.

 

[Zeriel]

-Most invested demographic are hardcore, and neglecting difficulty is a mistake.

I think it comes down to–in a lot of cases–that instead of people listening to criticism they just know there is criticism and then they decide independent of it that they’re going to change some stuff. So like you said, you made a modest impact, you really struck home with some people that really liked the game, and maybe the execution needed some work. So why not just make the execution of what you were going for so that the next one is totally awesome and those things that people loved about it is now even better. Then if there’s stuff that’s janky about it, yeah change the janky stuff, but not if it’s something that those people that loved the game really liked. Just make it better. I think there’s where things go wrong. People look at something and go, “Ok, so we have this core of people that love the game and this other group that fundamentally hates it, so let’s make it a different game.” And it’s like, “Well… no. They hate the game. They didn’t like anything about it. You’re not going to win those people over. They don’t even like the idea of what you’re making.”

It is my sincere belief that the dissolution of a more-than-decade-long romantic relationship gave him brain damage. It will take him many more years to recover, if he ever does.

Josh Sawyer, the Baker:

"People who expect bread from us will never like what we bake. Therefore, we will continue making kebabs. Fuck those losers."

tfw your entire job is to clone a 20 year old game and then once you have the money you decide to just make something completely different, and then act like the people upset by your bait-and-switch are just unpleasable assholes

 

[HeroMarine]

Also not using MCA to write the story/characters seems to be a big mistake in hindsight.

 

[Zeriel]

Also not using MCA to write the story/characters seems to be a big mistake in hindsight.

I mean not so much when you consider the owners just wanted him to die and fuck off while using his name to get money. You can't say it's a mistake when its an intentional strategy to blackball someone.

 

[Quillon]

According to MCA, not using Ziets was the mistake.

 

[Mr. Hiver]

that said, I never got poe2 as I never finished poe1, but unless they completely redid the combat, I can't imagine that it would have been much different.

It is effectively, all things considered, almost a completely different combat system in final execution and the feel of playing it. It actually plays pretty alright.

 

[Reader]

I don't know why he did this.
A man should never admit his faults in public. Now his fans are disappointed, haters point finger and say "haha", and there are those who pat his head and like "it's okay, the most important thing is that you learned a lesson". The latter group is the most disgusting.
Blame Fergus, blame Avellone, blame Todd. But don't blame yourself.
It's just not healthy.

 

[hexer]

It is my sincere belief that the dissolution of a more-than-decade-long romantic relationship gave him brain damage. It will take him many more years to recover, if he ever does.

What? How could you possibly know anything about his love life?
Anyway, I think as a dev he's evolving in the right direction - he's becoming more humble and self-reflective than he used to be.

I don't know why he did this.
A man should never admit his faults in public. Now his fans are disappointed, haters point finger and say "haha", and there are those who pat his head and like "it's okay, the most important thing is that you learned a lesson". The latter group is the most disgusting.
Blame Fergus, blame Avellone, blame Todd. But don't blame yourself.
It's just not healthy.

Taking some of the blame is OK, not all of it of course.
Otherwise, if you think "you're never wrong", you'll end up becoming a narcissist who'll get SERIOUSLY offended at a slightest remark.

 

[Reader]

you're never wrong

This mindset not only helped to a number of rulers, but also to wild west pioneers.
Also the term "narcissist" was created by average crowd to supress geniuses.

 

[Urthor]

To be fair there was like, 50 different things he didn't talk about that went pretty well overall.

These were just the ones that didn't.

 

[hexer]

you're never wrong

This mindset not only helped to a number of rulers, but also to wild west pioneers.

Of course, let's hope they were good and fair people too.

Also the term "narcissist" was created by average crowd to supress geniuses.

I wouldn't mix the two.
A genius is an individual whose creation (product, theory, etc.) is highly useful or pleasing.
A narcissist is a person who thinks he's better than the rest because he was raised that way or his ego got crushed so she/he's using it as an ego-defense system.

 

[Reader]

you're never wrong

This mindset not only helped to a number of rulers, but also to wild west pioneers.

Of course, let's hope they were good and fair people too.

Also the term "narcissist" was created by average crowd to supress geniuses.

I wouldn't mix the two.
A genius is an individual whose creation (product, theory, etc.) is highly useful or pleasing.
A narcissist is a person who thinks he's better than the rest because he was raised that way or his ego got crushed so she/he's using it as an ego-defense system.

Let's not go deeper. Seriously, this discussion leads nowhere anyway.
My point is Josh shoudn't do it in public. It is not only inefficient, but also looks like those tvshows for housewives.
Of course there is a room for doubts. Discuss it with a friend, dad, mom, Todd etc.

 

[Ninjerk]

Machiavelli over here

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

My point is Josh shoudn't do it in public. It is not only inefficient, but also looks like those tvshows for housewives.

The game bombed. A lessons learned presentation is not only reasonable, but expected. Moreover, Obsidian was sold, so he can say some bad things about the owners, otherwise everyone will think that all the fuck ups were his fault. He is right. Urquart and the other idiots were getting away with this nonsense for years.

 

[Roguey]

What? How could you possibly know anything about his love life?

People share enough about themselves on the internet.

 

[Josh SJWyer]

Paradoxically, Pillars of Eternity is the franchise that both saved Obsidian and ended them. The successful kickstarter campaign of the first game kept them afloat during a rough time and that kickstarter was the only thing that saved them. The sequel's crowdfunding campaign was also successful, but the game itself fell far short of expectations. That is the reason they were forced to sell out to Microsoft and have lost their independence. Say what you will about Sawyer, but if not for him they would have went under and been bought years ago. He couldn't stop it forever, but he delayed it from happening for a few years. Maybe this was inevitable no matter what, but a lesser man would have failed this Herculean task much sooner. If you're familiar with Greek mythology, there's a myth of Hercules carrying the heavens on his shoulders for a period of time, but it was too much for him to handle and then Atlas had to step back in and resume the responsibility. Josh Sawyer was kinda like Hercules in that sense. He had to carry the weight of the entire company on his shoulders after Chris Atlas Avellone left. Any lesser man would have been crushed like a bug in an instant, but Josh managed to hold out for several years. He is still only mortal after all, but he still deserves credit for lasting as long as he did.

Josh also deserves credit for his honesty and humility in acknowledges the games failings. Many of these things were decisions forced on him by upper management. It's the same sort of issues that made Chris Avellone leave years earlier. I'm not sure why Chris seems to hate Josh so much. They both were hampered by the cruel Hera of upper management throwing hurdles their way and forcing them to complete trials and labors that no mortal man could possibly handle. The community seems to be divided into Avellonians and Sawyerites, but this sort of division should not exist, in my opinion. The real enemy is the gods (upper management) who are making these shitty decisions. But that is neither here nor there.

Now the question is what is going to happen with the Pillars franchise moving forward. I do recall reading in an interview a few years ago where Feargus said he wanted to transform Pillars into a "Skyrim-like" I.P. So I think what we will see happen with POE3 is like what happened with Witcher 3 in the Witcher series. Obsidian now has sugardaddy Microsoft to fund such a project, and considering how successful Skyrim and Witcher 3 are, I can pretty much guarantee that's what you'll see out of POE3. Gone are the days when Obsidian turned to crowdfunding to just barely subsist. Mark my words, about a decade from now a bunch of obnoxious kids will be as obsessed with Pillars of Eternity as kids are with Skyrim nowadays. Maybe they'll pick up POE1 and POE2 thinking for a similar experience, and be disappointed by the top-down perspective and think to themselves "what is this gay shit?"

 

[hexer]

The real enemy is the gods (upper management) who are making these shitty decisions. But that is neither here nor there.

Is the upper management even considering retirement?
I feel after all the shitty decisions that's long overdue.

 

[Roguey]

The successful kickstarter campaign of the first game kept them afloat during a rough time and that kickstarter was the only thing that saved them.

PoE was a morale boost, but the MMO stuff was what kept the company running during those years.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

Look Josh had it rough, and I have nothing against the guy. But POE success or not is enterally his fault. Fucks sake again he made Pallegina.
The seeds of greatness were there and I like what they were trying to go for with fantasy 30 years war in a new world. But they simply didn't have either the programming\ writing and even directing power. Much like most entertainment made there honestly.

I saw this whole vid and Josh is done. You could tell, and the reference to Avellone was telling.

 

[hexer]

I think he'll stick around for some time to come, he's still young.
We'll see what they can REALLY do now that Microsoft is funding their games.