Kingdom Come: Deliverance II - Henry's coming to see us on February 4th

[Swen]

Post on reddit with this screenshot has been locked and removed. The official reason for the lock/removal is leaking a spoiler that doesn't originate from Warhorse Studios. I am curious to see if this news spreads around the Web and how Vavra himself will react to it, provided there will be any official reaction at all (the release is still roughly a month away).

That said, there was an official interview with IGN, in which Tobias Stolz-Zwilling (Warhorse PR Manager) said:

As mentioned already, Henry is embarking on a journey from the countryside and local quarrels to a relatively cosmopolitan city that is besieged and occupied by the invading king. Naturally, in a place like this, people can expect a wide range of ethnicities and different characters that Henry will meet on his journey.

So "a relatively cosmopolitan city", one "that is besieged and occupied by the invading king" had a black doctor in it (because he was, apparently, a traveler) and after Sigismund took the city he needed an imported surgeon? Frankly, that's pretty far-fetched reason for this inclusion to me. But I guess all the talk about cosmopolity and "a wide range of ethnicities" does make sense now.

Haven't seen 1 black or brown person in the recent gameplay footage of Kuttenberg.

I'm quite sure it's fake, especially if it's coming from 4chan

 

[Shin]

ChatGPT is trained on woke internet datas:
-------
3) Bohemia in the 15th century: a crossroads?

Bohemia at the time of King Sigismund (late 14th–early 15th century) was part of the Holy Roman Empire, but Sigismund himself was also King of Hungary from 1387. Hungary shared a border with the Balkans, which had connections to the Ottoman and Byzantine worlds—so by extension, there was at least some broader movement of peoples.

Sigismund was known for traveling and for forging alliances across Central/Eastern Europe. Could he have theoretically hired or encountered an African doctor? It’s not out of the question, although direct documentary evidence is slim.
The fact that he was also King of Hungary gave him more contact with southeastern Europe, where trade and mercenary routes from the Mediterranean or even Mamluk Egypt might intersect.

4) Realism vs. Probability

If the game’s second installment is set in a more “urban” or cosmopolitan part of Bohemia or among the king’s retinue—who’d be coming from multiple parts of Europe—it’s plausible they could introduce a single Malian or North African doctor, soldier, or court official. It wouldn’t be common, of course—but for narrative purposes, a single outlier is not inherently “unrealistic.”

Historical accuracy: If the developer’s argument is “Hey, we found a reference (or even a rumor) that Sigismund had a foreign doctor from Africa,” that might be enough to justify it in a story.
Tokenism vs. reality: If it’s just jammed in to tick a diversity box and it doesn’t reflect some plausible route by which that character might have arrived, that can feel forced to players who value historical fidelity. On the flip side, automatically rejecting the possibility of any person of African descent is also inaccurate, given that medieval Europe did have occasional (if rare) visitors of African origin.

Bottom line​

• Were there large Black communities in 15th-century Bohemia? Extremely unlikely.
• Could there have been an African doctor (or any person of color) in Sigismund’s service? Not outside the realm of plausibility—uncommon, but plausible if the backstory fits (e.g., trained in the Islamic medical tradition, came via diplomatic connections, or had been traveling through southern Europe).
• Is it “historically accurate” enough for a game? Quite possibly yes, as long as it’s presented as the exception rather than the norm.

So if Kingdom Come: Deliverance 2 wants to include a character of color in a big city or at the royal court, it’s not “unrealistic nonsense.” But it would be unrealistic if the game suddenly portrayed Bohemia as having lots of African or Middle Eastern communities. A rare individual in a high-profile or specialized role, though, fits neatly into that small but real slice of medieval multicultural history.

-------

Personally, I don't really mind the inclusion of a black person in the game, as long as it's done tastefully and realistically. I do truly hope the dialogue shown is fake though, as it does reek of awful woke-ism. On the other hand, we don't know the context - it might be the scene just before a golden haired Aryan lops of his dick and head before stripping his black flesh and sewing it unto a pig's corpse. I'm interested to see some explanations from Vavra, as this is obviously a heated topic. I won't be throwing Warhorse under the bus just yet though (although pre-ordering something is retarded either way you spin it, it's not like your digital game will be out of stock).

 

[Hag]

No there wasn't. The reason why Marco Polo (14th century btw) was such a big deal was precisely because it was not something people would normally do. "Trade" between China and Europe wasn't done by some dude loading up shit in China and selling it in Europe. It was made by a dude in China selling his shit somewhere in central asia, where another dude sold it in persia, where another dude sold it in Syria, where it got loaded on a ship and finally reached a European port. They really weren't doing some ridiculous monster trek where they'd go all the way there and back, and similarly, a trader from Mali would've sold his shit in northern Africa and go back, and certainly wouldn't travel to central Europe.

Of course, one could argue he was an explorer rather than trader, as making such treks was indeed possible. I do not know of any Malian explorers from the 14th century, but I don't deny their existence either. But does such ridiculous exception really merit representation in the game? For what purpose? It doesn't illustrate how life was back then, as the overwhelming majority of people would've gone their whole lives without meeting such an explorer. Why is there a desire to find however improbable excuse to include nigs in the game?

You're right about trade I guess, however about the broader subject of explorer you've made me check my reference book "le Peuple des Steppes" (Grousset), where among other examples, it reviews European influence in China under the Yuan dynasty :
- In 1291 Petrus de Lucalongo, an Italian merchant, settled in Beijing.
- in 1305 he offers land to the Franciscan Jean de Montecorvino
- Andalo de Savignano went twice to China, second time around 1338
- In 1313 3 more Franciscan arrived in Beijing, where two churches had been built by Montecorvino and many an heathen converted, and 3 others to various closer Asian places.
- The missionary Odoric de Pordenone traveled through most of Asia before landing in China, extensively exploring the place for a couple years before coming back.
- 2 other priests were sent after Montecorvino death. Nicolas died on the way, while Jean de Marignolli travelled in Asia and China for 14 years.
- Party ended when the Ming took power in 1368.

I won't be arsed to look for more details but there were also some European craftmen detained at the court of some Khan (that was met by a fellow Westerner). Deporting or offering prisoners skilled in arts or craft has always been done and let to interesting stories, such as Greek settlements in Bactria made of population deported by Darius, that lived and evolved and mixed and whose culture was still around in the Oasis States in Tarim around 4th century AD.

I may have strayed away a little, but my point is that people have always moved around, and it makes for fascinating stories.

 

[cvv]

Personally, I don't really mind the inclusion of a black person in the game

Just... no. You should always only include people that are clearly documented for the place and time. There are historical writings about Czechs, Germans, Poles, Italians, Jews, Hungarians. That's it. Afaik there aren't any documents about anyone else. There MIGHT'VE been other nationalities or ethnicities but in a game like this you should stick to what we know for sure.

Otherwise you might as well include Inuits, Bushmen or fucking aliens because you never know right?

 

[damager]

They would probably burn a nigga for thinking he is a witchmaster

 

[cvv]

They would probably burn a nigga for thinking he is a witchmaster

More like a demon.

 

[Yosharian]

Yeah I'm firmly in the camp of 'i don't really give a shit, but that dialogue looks wank'.

If they did a character like this but actually made him interesting, I wouldn't mind.

Like for example if he had an actually amusing or interesting personality. He could be one of those asshole doctors who take the piss out of their patients or something like that.

It won't be that though, he'll be safe and sanitary to appeal to the DEI crowd. So I'll probably hate it.

 

[thesecret1]

No there wasn't. The reason why Marco Polo (14th century btw) was such a big deal was precisely because it was not something people would normally do. "Trade" between China and Europe wasn't done by some dude loading up shit in China and selling it in Europe. It was made by a dude in China selling his shit somewhere in central asia, where another dude sold it in persia, where another dude sold it in Syria, where it got loaded on a ship and finally reached a European port. They really weren't doing some ridiculous monster trek where they'd go all the way there and back, and similarly, a trader from Mali would've sold his shit in northern Africa and go back, and certainly wouldn't travel to central Europe.

Of course, one could argue he was an explorer rather than trader, as making such treks was indeed possible. I do not know of any Malian explorers from the 14th century, but I don't deny their existence either. But does such ridiculous exception really merit representation in the game? For what purpose? It doesn't illustrate how life was back then, as the overwhelming majority of people would've gone their whole lives without meeting such an explorer. Why is there a desire to find however improbable excuse to include nigs in the game?

You're right about trade I guess, however about the broader subject of explorer you've made me check my reference book "le Peuple des Steppes" (Grousset), where among other examples, it reviews European influence in China under the Yuan dynasty :
- In 1291 Petrus de Lucalongo, an Italian merchant, settled in Beijing.
- in 1305 he offers land to the Franciscan Jean de Montecorvino
- Andalo de Savignano went twice to China, second time around 1338
- In 1313 3 more Franciscan arrived in Beijing, where two churches had been built by Montecorvino and many an heathen converted, and 3 others to various closer Asian places.
- The missionary Odoric de Pordenone traveled through most of Asia before landing in China, extensively exploring the place for a couple years before coming back.
- 2 other priests were sent after Montecorvino death. Nicolas died on the way, while Jean de Marignolli travelled in Asia and China for 14 years.
- Party ended when the Ming took power in 1368.

I won't be arsed to look for more details but there were also some European craftmen detained at the court of some Khan (that was met by a fellow Westerner). Deporting or offering prisoners skilled in arts or craft has always been done and let to interesting stories, such as Greek settlements in Bactria made of population deported by Darius, that lived and evolved and mixed and whose culture was still around in the Oasis States in Tarim around 4th century AD.

I may have strayed away a little, but my point is that people have always moved around, and it makes for fascinating stories.

So we've got explorers numbering in the dozens spread out across decades, among a population of millions. Sorry but that just proves my point - it'd be incredibly rare and extraordinary to meet an european in 14th century China, ergo there's no "realism" angle that would force one to include them in a game about said 14th century China.

Now if you want fascinating stories, I'd expect Marco Polo himself to be included, not some made-up european stand-in, and for his stories to mirror his real-life adventures. If it turns out Sigismund really had an explorer-turned-field doctor from Mali, I don't think there'd be much to criticize, but otherwise, it's just blatant tokenism

 

[NecroLord]

I expected a ottoman traveller, chronicler or merchant, but not a sub-saharan.

 

[Alienman]

The guy who posted it on 4chan is saying the Malian guy is the doctor at Sigismund's war camp.

Just Bohemians getting H-1B doctors.

 

[Ryzer]

Look how quick 'based' Vavra grovelled to the woke, hey The Wall where are you retard? give us another schizo take to explain this. I'm sure you will.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah I'm firmly in the camp of 'i don't really give a shit, but that dialogue looks wank'.

Yeah, although there is a faint glimmer of hope that its all very ironic and the nigger turns out to be some smug, outspoken exotic medicine doctor scammer.

 

[Hag]

So we've got explorers numbering in the dozens spread out across decades, among a population of millions. Sorry but that just proves my point - it'd be incredibly rare and extraordinary to meet an european in 14th century China, ergo there's no "realism" angle that would force one to include them in a game about said 14th century China.

Now if you want fascinating stories, I'd expect Marco Polo himself to be included, not some made-up european stand-in, and for his stories to mirror his real-life adventures. If it turns out Sigismund really had an explorer-turned-field doctor from Mali, I don't think there'd be much to criticize, but otherwise, it's just blatant tokenism

My point was more along the line of "Weird shit happens all the time, and whether true or not it could have very much happened".

Furthermore, a quick internet search shows there were travelers from Africa to Europe and Asia from all times since Roman times (why wouldn't there be ? Also Japanese ambassy to Somalia in 1587), although I haven't found anyone going to Bohemia.
Let's give the devs some slack, maybe this African guy is here for a solid reason, if he exists at all. It's not like the first KCD was much realistic to start with.

 

[Beowulf]

Vavra will now as strongly defend his historically accurate black merchant doctor vision as he previously strongly defended historically accurate lack of token characters.
Greed gets them all in the end.

I'm not inherently opposed to such characters if they have their role and presence tactfully integrated into the story. It's a work of fiction anyway.

 

[NecroLord]

Vavra will now as strongly defend his historically accurate black merchant doctor vision as he previously strongly defended historically accurate lack of token characters.
Greed gets them all in the end.

I'm not inherently opposed to such characters if they have their role and presence tactfully integrated into the story. It's a work of fiction anyway.

Warhorse initially banked themselves on being original and not giving in to the post Gamergate sjw culture and pressure.

Vavra damn better provide an explanation for why he decided to include a random sub-saharan in his semi historically accurate depiction of medieval Bohemia.
Ottoman I can believe, but sub-saharan?
C'mon now...
Apparently diversity consists of just putting crimers everywhere, God forbid you actually putting different white ethnicities or even asian ones.

 

[Ibn Sina]

Mali in Bohemia is retarded. The most far away destination any malian of influence could reach is Mecca and Medinah in Arabia. In fact one of their most famous kings outside of the Mansa Mousa meme was a guy who travelled to Mecca and Medina 3 times in his lifetime at 1300+, which is considered a very impressive feat and was only possible because of his extreme wealth.

Realistically Vavra could have added moors, Turks or Mameluke traders, not a fucking malian.

 

[Ibn Sina]

>Black dude in a medieval setting in the middle of Europe
>Instead of a trader he is an explorer (jogger), scholar and doctor
>Its the camp's doctor, so presumably someone with authority among whites or there is a whole camp of negroes
>Lectures you about how so much better his country is and that you should treat woman better in yours

Yeah, thanks 'based' Vavra

Yes its fucking retarded. Malian traders greatest extent of reach was Cairo. And that was the greatest extent of their trade reach. The Timbuktu gold and slave caravans to Cairo was the most famous trade route in Africa. There where certainly no Malian women traders or physicians that's just lol. In fact they sold their women in the markets as pleasure slaves.

 

[Swen]

It's obviously fake lol, imagine believing 4chan posted images.

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Yeah, although there is a faint glimmer of hope that its all very ironic and the nigger turns out to be some smug, outspoken exotic medicine doctor scammer.

If you talk to this guy and he tells you just how much better Mali is compared to 1400s Bohemia, only for a fully barded warhorse to drop on his head out of the blue killing him instantly, Monty Python style, then sure, I'll give Vavra a pass. I wouldn't bother acknowledging the people who screeched about "representation" in the first game even with a joke, but whatever.

The chance of this being obvious satire is about as big as the chance of this being fake. Not impossible, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm not inherently opposed to such characters if they have their role and presence tactfully integrated into the story. It's a work of fiction anyway.

Yeah, but that's not going to happen. Kingdom Come's core themes are rooted in the early formative period of modern Central European national identities and inter-Christian conflict tied to those identities. There's is virtually nothing that an itinerant Moslem from Mali can add to the subject. He can't even fulfil the neutral observer role, since he'd naturally lack any in depth understanding of the subject matter at hand. He can never not be a token.

 

[thesecret1]

So we've got explorers numbering in the dozens spread out across decades, among a population of millions. Sorry but that just proves my point - it'd be incredibly rare and extraordinary to meet an european in 14th century China, ergo there's no "realism" angle that would force one to include them in a game about said 14th century China.

Now if you want fascinating stories, I'd expect Marco Polo himself to be included, not some made-up european stand-in, and for his stories to mirror his real-life adventures. If it turns out Sigismund really had an explorer-turned-field doctor from Mali, I don't think there'd be much to criticize, but otherwise, it's just blatant tokenism

My point was more along the line of "Weird shit happens all the time, and whether true or not it could have very much happened".

Furthermore, a quick internet search shows there were travelers from Africa to Europe and Asia from all times since Roman times (why wouldn't there be ? Also Japanese ambassy to Somalia in 1587), although I haven't found anyone going to Bohemia.
Let's give the devs some slack, maybe this African guy is here for a solid reason, if he exists at all. It's not like the first KCD was much realistic to start with.

Weird shit happens all the time, therefore there need to be niggers in medieval Bohemia? What's next, historically documented cases of deranged retards cutting their cocks off, therefore every game set in the middle ages has to feature trannies?

I'm sick and tired of far-fetched excuses being used to shove niggers everywhere. Can a setting be faithfully represented without niggers in it? If the answer is yes, then they shouldn't be there.

 

[Ibn Sina]

Another thing, the concept of Malians recognizing they are from a "country" is stupid. It was not even called Mali at the time, and the people there never recognized they lived in a "country". This isn't 1950 anti colonial movement awakening. The people greatest extent of loyality at that time would be to their local village or tribal elder, and the most "learned" among them or the elites who could read would be Muslim, and they would have a notion of the Islamic Ummah as a thing (but never truly experience it unless they travel to Meccah, which was rare because travelling in the Sahara at that time was extremely dangerous, unless in large trade caravans).

What happened to Vavra? how such obvious thing are ignored?

 

[Konjad]

Hold your judgements until KCD2 is released, it might as well be bollocks. Time will tell.

Just one more month.

 

[Oreshnik Missile]

Vavra must disavow NIGGERS immediately, otherwise DoA.

 

[Swen]

Does someone have a verified/payed X account? Then you can pm Vavra to ask.

 

[Cpt. Dallas]

What happened to Vavra?