Development Info Knights of the Chalice 2 Development Update

[Lhynn]

Well, it steems from the fact that the adventuring life style simply isnt suited to be a crafter.

I don't really give a shit what adventuring life is suited for in my strictly combat focused, tactical RPG. I don't ask for realistic toilet-mechanics either.

Fair enough, but you do face the problem that if you make crafting underpowered no one is going to take it, if you make it even slightly overpowered its going to be a must have. And you will be killing one of the best hooks ever to actually go out and explore unless you do the whole "cleverly hide the materiales required", which is good.
Fact of the matter is, i can think of a huge amount of features that would take as much work as coding an interesting crafting system. But i can relate, crafting makes it a lot easier on you, you dont have to actually think and design magical items interesting and varied enough, and the locales where they can be found.

Plus enjoying the fruits of your own crafted equipment feels awesome.

 

[tuluse]

Just steal from LotR like you're doing anyways with your shitty RPG, and have crafting let you fix the broken magical swords of awesomeness that you find.

 

[Grunker]

I don't really give a shit what RPG design is suited for in my OGL tech demo.

What? That made no sense.

Same thing either way, Josh.

Glorious. We've now reached a point where arguing that mechanics is the only important concept in a game strictly about mechanics gets stapled as Sawyerism. You people hate him and Roguey so much the blood flows from all holes now.

Fair enough, but you do face the problem that if you make crafting underpowered no one is going to take it, if you make it even slightly overpowered its going to be a must have.

Yeah, it's not like that was the exact point I made in the developer Q&A we had recently.

Crafting should be seperate from other systems for exactly this reason, but it has nothing to do with bullshit excuses of 360 degree realism.

But i can relate, crafting makes it a lot easier on you, you dont have to actually think and design magical items interesting and varied enough, and the locales where they can be found.

Evidently you missed the spot where I said KotC crafting was shit for mechanical reasons.

 

[Roguey]

Unfortunately crafting is necessary in a 3.fail adaptation that doesn't do away with the super-specialized weapon feats. Otherwise the burden is on the content creator to make enough magical versions of every weapon you can focus/specialize in.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think the keys to a good crafting system are finite materials. Unlimited crafting is where things get stupid and cheesy. Crafting should make the best equipment available, but should require some limited resource so you have to pick and choose what you want your best piece of equipment to be, and weigh the pros and cons of having says, the best weapon, since that is your most useful piece of equipment, or the best boots, since that is the equipment which offers the largest gap in quality, etc.

Getting some dragon scales off of a boss and having the option to craft a single suit of heavy armor, a couple suits of lighter armor, an exceptionally strong shield or a pair of gauntlets and boots, would be really cool. You could have similar scenarios with all sorts of other things; rare metals, magical gems, various bits of monster flesh or bone, and you can hide this shit in secret stashes or offer them as quest rewards or all sorts of cool shit.

Crafting has huge potential for interesting gameplay, provided you build the game around it properly.

 

[Grunker]

I think the keys to a good crafting system are finite materials. Unlimited crafting is where things get stupid and cheesy. Crafting should make the best equipment available,

That (specific recipe crafting), or you could just set it apart from other systems... like in all games where crafting actually works.

 

[Excidium]

I don't really give a shit what RPG design is suited for in my OGL tech demo.

What? That made no sense.

Well, it's what it is if you strip everything and leave only the "tactical combat RPG", a glorified tech demo. I fucking hate people that think like that. "Combat RPG" "Exploration RPG" "C&C RPG". Please stop shitting my genre.

Same thing either way, Josh.

Glorious. We've now reached a point where arguing that mechanics is the only important concept in a game strictly about mechanics gets stapled as Sawyerism. You people hate him and Roguey so much the blood flows from all holes now.

It is intense Sawyerism because like him, you only think things in terms of gameplay mechanics like they exist in a vacuum. But RPG systems exist to simulate the fiction.

Crafting should be seperate from other systems for exactly this reason, but it has nothing to do with bullshit excuses of 360 degree realism.

Yeah, the Sawyerist way would be to spend nights coming up with arbitrary reasons to limit crafting, when the best limiting factor is rather simple: crafting takes time that adventurers usually don't have.

Of course with d20/OGL the problem with crafting is that it goes against what D&D is about and is rather broken specially if you implement it 1:1 in a computer game.

 

[Damned Registrations]

like in all games where crafting actually works.

Games such as?

 

[tuluse]

RPG systems exist to simulate the fiction.

This is one of the best sentences I've ever read

 

[Grunker]

Well, it's what it is if you strip everything and leave only the "tactical combat RPG", a glorified tech demo.

Why is a "tactical combat RPG" a glorified tech demo? Because you don't like tactical combat RPGs?

Yeah, then fuck off. "This elephant is not a table, I am outraged!"

It is intense Sawyerism because like him, you only think things in terms of gameplay mechanics like they exist in a vacuum. But RPG systems exist to simulate the fiction.

KotC is a tactical combat game with light fantasy elements for context. There is almost no simulationism. The context provides something different than abstract symbols to fight, that is literally it. You are trying to put things into it which the game is not about at all. Unlike both you and Sawyer I am completely capable of enjoying a multitude of ways to play and make RPGs. I don't think there is "the one truth of RPG construction."

like in all games where crafting actually works.

Games such as?

The Witcher's alchemy system. KotOR's upgrade system. In both cases, crafting does not compete with other systems, and thus exists without problems. Whatever issues the games may have otherwise, the crafting works.

RPG systems exist to simulate the fiction.

This is one of the best sentences I've ever read

It's also complete bullshit. "I like to play RPGs this way therefore only this is RPG" is such blatant bullshit I expect it only from the faggiest of newfags.

There are plenty of ways to handle RPG systems, plenty of ideals to strive towards and plenty of ways to make RPGs fun. Patenting an arbitrary, one-liner definition on one of them and claiming that's all every RPG ever is or should be about is retarded on the level of metal fans arguing which one of them listens to the right albums.

The one common theme between them is that they all require a solid set of mechanics to work. You can't make any sort of RPG no matter what your aim or scope is without a compelling set of core system mechanics, no matter what your goal is.

The interesting discussion isn't "is tactical RPGs, simulationist RPGs or narrativist RPGs better?", the interesting discussion is "OK, so we have an X RPG. Is it well designed and fun to play given what it's trying to do?"

 

[Mastermind]

You blame crafting, I blame the fact that there wasn't awesome stuff to be found in dungeons. It's easy to have a proper crafting system and still place unique artifacts, which cannot be replicated by crafting, into the dungeons imo.

I'd like to see the ability to create unique artifacts yourself. After all, the artifacts in the game world were made by someone (or something) at some point too. Maybe have some quests designed around retrieving extremely rare ingredients that can only be used to make one item

But adventurers who specialize in combat and magic shouldn't be expert smiths.

I really don't give a fuck about realism, I just like designing my own shit.

 

[tuluse]

It's also complete bullshit. "I like to play RPGs this way therefore only this is RPG" is such blatant bullshit I expect it only from the faggiest of newfags.

There are plenty of ways to handle RPG systems, plenty of ideals to strive towards and plenty of ways to make RPGs fun. Patenting an arbitrary, one-liner definition on one of them and claiming that's all every RPG ever is or should be about is retarded on the level of metal fans arguing which one of them listens to the right albums.

The interesting discussion isn't "is tactical RPGs, simulationist RPGs or narrativist RPGs better?", the interesting discussion is "OK, so we have an X RPG. Is it well designed and fun to play given what it's trying to do?"

The beauty of the idea was that it's not "there is only one way to do things". Each "fiction" would have it's own mechanics to support it the best.

 

[Lhynn]

I really don't give a fuck about realism, I just like designing my own shit.

BW dev? im onto you

 

[Excidium]

Well, it's what it is if you strip everything and leave only the "tactical combat RPG", a glorified tech demo.

Why is a "tactical combat RPG" a glorified tech demo? Because you don't like tactical combat RPGs?

Yeah, then fuck off. "This elephant is not a table, I am outraged!"

I like tactical combat. I don't like when it's used as an excuse.

It is intense Sawyerism because like him, you only think things in terms of gameplay mechanics like they exist in a vacuum. But RPG systems exist to simulate the fiction.

KotC is a tactical combat game with light fantasy elements for context. There is almost no simulationism. You are trying to put things into it which the game is not about at all. Unlike both you and Sawyer I am completely capable of enjoying a multitude of ways to play and make RPGs. I don't think there is "the one truth of RPG construction.".

I don't know why "simulation" in RPGs became something only associated with the darkest recesses of GURPS splatbooks.

Simulation in the context I'm using has fuck all to do with that GNS theory bullshit. When you roll 1d20+modifiers against AC to attack a goblin you're WHOA!! simulating what happens when your dude hits a goblin based on his abilities, the goblin's abilities with this and that equipment and those circumstances. This works rather logically (keeping in mind game system abstractions) so why can't crafting work too? Because it's easier to come up with arbitrary bullshit than implementing something as basic and essential as the passage of time in a CRPG obviously.

 

[Lhynn]

Simulation in the context I'm using has fuck all to do with that GNS theory bullshit. When you roll 1d20+modifiers against AC to attack a goblin you're WHOA!! simulating what happens when your dude hits a goblin based on his abilities, the goblin's abilities with this and that equipment and those circumstances. This works rather logically (keeping in mind game system abstractions) so why can't crafting work too? Because it's easier to come up with arbitrary bullshit than implementing something as basic and essential as the passage of time in a CRPG obviously.

I like you.

 

[Grimlorn]

People suggested on his website that he sell it on GOG or Steam, but for some reason he thinks he can still make more money keeping it on his website. I guess he doesn't want to drop it down to $10 when he can sell it on his website for $25. I think that's crazy because everyone who knows about it has bought it if they wanted it, he can only make money by putting it on GOG or Steam.

 

[Overboard]

I think that's crazy because everyone who knows about it has bought it if they wanted it, he can only make money by putting it on GOG or Steam.

There's too much sense and logic in that statement to fit into the world of indie game development.

 

[GlutenBurger]

Do we know how many copies of the game have sold over the past year or so? The sensible guess would be "not many," but I prefer a little bit of concrete data behind my unnecessary snarkiness.

 

[Darth Roxor]

that's one of the worst arguments for arbitrary realism i've seen this month and i've seen a couple

Crafting in KotC makes treasure uninteresting. That's a stronger argument than "omg adventurers should be smiths".

Because, to everything, there is always only one precise and exact golden argument, and all the other ones are shit, unnecessary and shouldn't even be brought up without risk of torture, AMIRITE.

 

[Grunker]

Because, to everything, there is always only one precise and exact golden argument, and all the other ones are shit, unnecessary and shouldn't even be brought up without risk of torture,

The fact that supposedly an adventurer isn't a smith is completely irrelevant with regards to KotC, so you can stop roxoring. Noob. R00fles!

 

[Cosmo]

Despite the turn of the conversation and Excidium's bout of hysteria, i think crafting in KotC is more a local problem, than one concerning the queston of "whatsaCRPG?". Namely it was a way (an artificial and not very good one) to bridge the gap between late-game fighters and mages. There could have been better solutions, but those would have required a lot more work and sytem designing, and the guy is on his own.
I still think what he did system-wise with the 3.5 rules was very good, and as for the world, it may be simple but still manages to evoke early D&D modules effectively. For a lone programer that's already a whole range of successes.

 

[mondblut]

like in all games where crafting actually works.

Games such as?

Unreal World, duh.

Except it doesn't have any advanced weapons and armor to make, but it could be an easy addition. Melting metal out of occasionally found/bought/looted ore and other metal items, spending hours on forging, ending up with something of shit quality, melting it again, all functionalities are there.

 

[JarlFrank]

It might be a completely irrelevant, but that doesn't change the fact that crafting in KotC is kind of a crappy mechanic.
Way to overreact over a short sentence like that. Nevertheless, it has some truth to it concerning all games: if the party can create more powerful items than you can find in the dungeons of legendary wizards, without much effort, something is very wrong with your crafting system, both because it is unbelievable (OMG REALISMFAG) as well as making exploration kinda pointless as you will never care about a +4 item you find because you already crafted a superior +5 one.

 

[Charles-cgr]

It might be a completely irrelevant, but that doesn't change the fact that crafting in KotC is kind of a crappy mechanic.
Way to overreact over a short sentence like that. Nevertheless, it has some truth to it concerning all games: if the party can create more powerful items than you can find in the dungeons of legendary wizards, without much effort, something is very wrong with your crafting system, both because it is unbelievable (OMG REALISMFAG) as well as making exploration kinda pointless as you will never care about a +4 item you find because you already crafted a superior +5 one.

What if you can craft better gloves but find more powerful swords?

 

[JarlFrank]

I generally prefer finding stuff to crafting stuff. From a gameplay perspective, crafting should best be restricted to utility items and useables. Potions, scrolls and wands, arrows and crossbow bolts, other usable items like fairy dust you can throw at enemies, or even gunpowder...
Not stuff you equip, but stuff you use in certain situations.