Development Info Knights of the Chalice 2 Development Update

[Cosmo]

crafting should best be restricted to utility items and useables

Or at the very most to specialized followers residing in your keep/hideout...

 

[JarlFrank]

But is it actually fun to *craft* legendary artifacts?
I'm not talking about finding pieces of legendary artifacts and then combining them, that was an awesome feature of BG2 for example. But crafting something super-awesome that can be repeatedly crafted by means of non-finite resoruces (gold, experience, simple crafting resources like iron ore) is boring. Crafting something mediocre that is quickly obsolete by something you find is pointless.

Consumables are the only craftables that make sense.

 

[Damned Registrations]

like in all games where crafting actually works.

Games such as?

Unreal World, duh.

Except it doesn't have any advanced weapons and armor to make, but it could be an easy addition. Melting metal out of occasionally found/bought/looted ore and other metal items, spending hours on forging, ending up with something of shit quality, melting it again, all functionalities are there.

Oh yeah, spending hours making wooden bowls to sell and exchange for anything you want was a great fucking system.

I generally prefer finding stuff to crafting stuff.

If you need to find stuff to craft (instead of just buying/farming the materials), you get the best of both worlds. It makes the find exciting for everyone, not just people who happen to find a battle axe of undead slaying or whatever to be useful.

Equipment you find should be generally useful to most parties. Things like a ring/cloak of protection, permanent stat bonuses, boots of speed, etc. Equipment you craft should have more niche applications. Things like a polearm weapon few characters can use or specialized vs certain enemies, armor with specific resistances, a staff aligned with a particular school of magic, etc. It gives the player the same kind of interesting decisions they have when creating their party, instead of just hoovering up every bit of bling they find and dropping whatever their weakest bit of equipment they can replace.

There are literally no legitimate complaints about this kind of system. Everyone is bitching about crafting systems where you obsolete everything else you find, which doesn't have to be the case. It's like bitching about NPCs being so powerful they render your player created character useless, so all games shouldn't have parties. It's fucking retarded.

 

[Cosmo]

Consumables are the only craftables that make sense.

No. Between one-shot items and Legendary Swords of the Chosen One there's a world of possibilities : forging cold iron weapons to hurt demons and whatnot can be a good way to make players overcome challenge without overpoweringing them and trivializing true magic items.
But for that to be meaningful, you'd have to have a world where magic items are truly rare : they're so numerous in most of D&D inspired games that adding crafting systems on top can't really do any more harm...

 

[Lhynn]

What about a system with limited crafts.
As in, your character not only needs to get the materials for the item, but he will be able to make (In the case of blacksmithing):
80 Common iron weapons
40 Steel weapons
35 Of any "fragile" material (Cold iron, silver, etc)
...
1 Masterpiece (a weapon for the ages, your masterwork, the one that will bring your name to future generations.

This would be to emulate the passage of time, keeping the mass production out while at the same time being able to craft a powerful and memorable item, even going as far as naming it.

Anyway, the numbers are probably retarded, but what do you think of the idea?

 

[Cosmo]

What about a system with limited crafts.
As in, your character not only needs to get the materials for the item, but he will be able to make (In the case of blacksmithing):
80 Common iron weapons
40 Steel weapons
35 Of any "fragile" material (Cold iron, silver, etc)

Crafting being already a chore in most games, it just would be simpler to limit crafting scope IMO : no to building complex objects from the ground up, but yes to repairing, enhancing, embuing minor charms in equipment...
That would feel satisfying without getting in the way of found magic items. And on truly special occasions, quests to craft special items could even built on this foundation (forging your own suit of full plate, etc).

 

[mindx2]

Never understood why people like crafting so much and almost never do it unless it's quest driven. I like finding extraordinary items in the game world, be it from tough encounters, clues or "off the beaten path" exploration.

 

[Lhynn]

What about a system with limited crafts.
As in, your character not only needs to get the materials for the item, but he will be able to make (In the case of blacksmithing):
80 Common iron weapons
40 Steel weapons
35 Of any "fragile" material (Cold iron, silver, etc)

Crafting being already a chore in most games, it would be simpler to limit crafting scope IMO : no building complex objects from the ground up, but repairing, enhancing, embuing minor charms in equipment...
That would feel satisfying without getting in the way of found magic items. And special (meaning rare) quests to craft special items could even built on this foundation (forging your own suit of full plate, etc).

True, but we are kinda past that, so if we are keeping the old aproach, limiting it somehow seems the smarter move. it validates exploration, keeps the party from having too many powerful items while at the same time having one or two of those motherfuckers in the backpack thus allowing you to wreck shit and still find an excuse to search for stuff.

 

[Cosmo]

True, but we are kinda past that, so if we are keeping the old aproach, limiting it somehow seems the smarter move.

You confuse me.
We're only evoking possibilities why would we be beholden to the old approach (or to any kind of approach for that matter) ?
Also if that wasn't clear i advocated limiting power of enhancements : crafting should give you a edge, not turn you into a demigod.

 

[Lhynn]

True, but we are kinda past that, so if we are keeping the old aproach, limiting it somehow seems the smarter move.

?!
I don't see how we'd be beholden to the old approach (or to any kind of approach for that matter)...
Also if that wasn't clear i advocated limiting power of enhancement : crafting should give you a kick, not turn you into a demigod.

The aproach in the old game cosmo...
If crafting doesnt give you items as or more powerful than the one that are available, no one will take it. If it does, everyone will. the answer, limit the number of crafts per playtrough, and the quality of the item crafted and let the players decide if its worth getting the feats for that, reward those that do, dont punish those that dont.

 

[Cosmo]

where did i defend the opposite view ?

Seriously, take another look at my posts because i really don't know what it is you read in them...

 

[Lhynn]

where did i defend the opposite view ?

Seriously, reread my posts because i really don't know what it is you read in them...

Grunker seems to wants to keep it, so im working around that. Or thats the impression it gave me with all his "shits" and "i dont give a fuck". Im not looking for the ultimate answer on whether there should be crafting and blacksmithing or if it should be artifact reforging, etc.
Just keeping in mind that you want to craft the items yourself, it would be wiser to limit the amount of item said crafter can make, especially of the strongest kind.

 

[Cosmo]

Personally i'd say that crafting being a problem is a systemic thing ; as such it should be addressed at the roots, rather than adding new rules and limitations that'll make the whole thing clunkier and unwieldy...

 

[Lhynn]

Personally i'd say that crafting being a problem is a systemic thing ; as such it should be addressed at the roots, rather than adding new rules and limitations that'll make the whole thing clunkier and unwieldy...

I personally enjoyed crafting when playing dark messiah.

 

[mondblut]

Oh yeah, spending hours making wooden bowls to sell and exchange for anything you want was a great fucking system.

As opposed to spending hours looting rusty knives from the mobs to sell and exchange for anything you want? Games not having remotely reasonable economic models is unrelated to viability of their crafting system.

At least in URW, you have to (1) have several proper tools to procure wood and work with it, (2) have a couple of decent skills to actually produce something worth selling, (3) spend a shitload of time doing it all while getting hungry (and needing food and rest) and risking being attacked by wandering hostiles. Lowering value of identical items as their quantity increases is a minuscule change, and making crappy items cost nil is even less than that.

 

[Damned Registrations]

URW is like playing dwarf fortress with a single dwarf. No changes to the economy can fix that. You still have access to infinite resources, the problems of hunger and shelter are utterly trivial, and the crafting is just pointless grinding.

There's nothing interesting about crafting if it's just another means of converting time (aka patience) into resources. The whole point of games is to force the player to make decisions about a limited resource and how to use it. How to best command characters, who to best allocate experience or money, which goals to prioritize in situations where one cannot do everything.

URW lets you do everything if you're just willing to sit around long enough.

Something like IVAN does things a million times better. Things like change/harden material scrolls, or wishes, are very rare, finite resources. The player needs to make important decisions about what items to craft using these things. Is it more important to have an unbreakable weapon, or armor? Should you upgrade your limbs instead? Do you hold onto the scrolls and wait for other items to combine them with for better results, or use them now so you can live long enough to find more materials? Those are interesting decisions. URW has no choices to make. If you need to make something, you just get more wood or whatever. It costs you nothing but time and food, and you have infinite supplies of both.

 

[Gregz]

Unfortunately crafting is necessary in a 3.fail adaptation that doesn't do away with the super-specialized weapon feats. Otherwise the burden is on the content creator to make enough magical versions of every weapon you can focus/specialize in.

Did you guys miss this post a page back? ^

It's spot on. This is also true for more than weapons. If a Helm of Brilliance is set to drop from a boss, but you rolled a Sorcerer, (whose primary attribute is CHA), how badly does that suck? A lot. Give me crafting any day over shit like that.

 

[Lhynn]

Unfortunately crafting is necessary in a 3.fail adaptation that doesn't do away with the super-specialized weapon feats. Otherwise the burden is on the content creator to make enough magical versions of every weapon you can focus/specialize in.

Did you guys miss this post a page back? ^

It's spot on. This is also true for more than weapons. If a Helm of Brilliance is set to drop from a boss, but you rolled a Sorcerer, (whose primary attribute is CHA), how badly does that suck? A lot. Give me crafting any day over shit like that.

if you defeat a warrior you should get what the warrior is wearing, shouldnt you?

 

[FeelTheRads]

If a Helm of Brilliance is set to drop from a boss, but you rolled a Sorcerer

What if maybe a Staff of Kickassing will drop from some other boss? Or do you want all loot targeted at your characters. And remember, in a party RPG it's characters so you can give the loot to whoever can use it. This only really matters in single character RPGs. Can't really think of anything else besides Diablo clones where I thought "man, too bad I don't play this class" when finding a class-specific item.

 

[tuluse]

if you defeat a warrior you should get what the warrior is wearing, shouldnt you?

Not if you have to break it to defeat him.

 

[Gregz]

If a Helm of Brilliance is set to drop from a boss, but you rolled a Sorcerer

What if maybe a Staff of Kickassing will drop from some other boss? Or do you want all loot targeted at your characters. And remember, in a party RPG it's characters so you can give the loot to whoever can use it. This only really matters in single character RPGs. Can't really think of anything else besides Diablo clones where I thought "man, too bad I don't play this class" when finding a class-specific item.

Point is, the more flexible the class/weapon spec system, the more the gameworld has to be littered with katanas and exotic weapons to satisfy people who chose those builds.

Or, you can implement crafting and the player can compliment their build they way they want to.

To me that's far more fun than having 'buyers remorse' after 40 hours of gameplay because you didn't specialize in bastard sword (Scather & Fragarach from Co8)

 

[FeelTheRads]

It doesn't have to be littered and not all classes should have the exact same access to items. It's actually way more fun to dig for strong items than just go.. hurr.. well I maek one for next to nothing.

 

[Gregz]

Some games, like Might and Magic, do it right. Lots of AD&D games do it wrong.

This thread is about KoTC2 using the new system. The shear number of feats and hybrid classes insists that a new paradigm be introduced to satisfy that variety. The system's answer is crafting.

Now, you can penalize or 'charge' for crafting in different ways. Pierre chose XP expenditure, MoTB used spirit essences.

Crafting is fun, and necessary. How accessible you make it is where the balancing work should be focused. Maybe KoTC 1 was a bit too craft heavy, that can be fixed without doing away with crafting entirely.

 

[Lhynn]

If a Helm of Brilliance is set to drop from a boss, but you rolled a Sorcerer

What if maybe a Staff of Kickassing will drop from some other boss? Or do you want all loot targeted at your characters. And remember, in a party RPG it's characters so you can give the loot to whoever can use it. This only really matters in single character RPGs. Can't really think of anything else besides Diablo clones where I thought "man, too bad I don't play this class" when finding a class-specific item.

Point is, the more flexible the class/weapon spec system, the more the gameworld has to be littered with katanas and exotic weapons to satisfy people who chose those builds.

Or, you can implement crafting and the player can compliment their build they way they want to.

To me that's far more fun than having 'buyers remorse' after 40 hours of gameplay because you didn't specialize in bastard sword (Scather & Fragarach from Co8)

If you chose to build towards katana wielding on a medieval setting, then you should be fucked when it comes to procuring new katanas
Firs comes coherent world building, then comes player builds. This is the very fucking definition of

 

[tuluse]

If you chose to build towards katana wielding on a medieval setting, then you should be fucked when it comes to procuring new katanas
Firs comes coherent world building, then comes player builds. This is the very fucking definition of

Yeah man I know what you mean. Medieval Japan was totally katana free amirite?