KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Butter]

You can lead a fag to incline...

 

[mediocrepoet]

I don't know. Does someone who thinks that Disco Elysium is a masterpiece even in the right audience for KOTC2? Does he know it's not a visual novel?

 

[Pink Eye]

Tweed Does this look like a kobold to you?

Also, is it just me or has the music gotten better? I'm hearing new tracks being played that I've never heard in original backer version. That's pretty cool.

 

[Sacibengala]

Yeah, if he is comparing it with disco elysium, Pierre is doing him a favor not changing the price. Imagine the butthurt when he sees the tutorial. lol.

Does this look like a kobold to you?

Yeah, I would romance the hell out of this one. lol

 

[Tweed]

Tweed Does this look like a kobold to you?

Also, is it just me or has the music gotten better? I'm hearing new tracks being played that I've never heard in original backer version. That's pretty cool.

No, not even if you squint. Pierre said he'd be getting more paperdolls later, but I don't expect it to look any good given what the updated kobolds look like.

 

[PorkaMorka]

He's right though, buying at this price point is rewarding bad behavior, the only way Pierre is going to learn is through pain, the pain of having a 24 hour peak of 15 active players on steam.

 

[Sacibengala]

He's right though, buying at this price point is rewarding bad behavior, the only way Pierre is going to learn is through pain, the pain of having a 24 hour peak of 15 active players on steam.

Last that I've heard is that he's incapable of learn.

 

[Tweed]

Last that I've heard is that he's incapable of learn.

Pierre is proud of his work and he should be. It's not his fault normies want pretty graphics. How many more people do you think this niche game will get even if he cuts the price by half?

 

[Pink Eye]

the pain of having a 24 hour peak of 15 active players on steam.

That number doesn't factor in the fact the game was out a couple years ago for kickstarter backers or those who got the game by emailing him. Plus there's GoG users too.

 

[mediocrepoet]

the pain of having a 24 hour peak of 15 active players on steam.

That number doesn't factor in the fact the game was out a couple years ago for kickstarter backers or those who got the game by emailing him. Plus there's GoG users too.

This title is going to be super niche no matter how you slice it. Given that there is very little hope in grabbing a mass market, the best bet for profit is to charge as much as the niche would be willing to pay.

I think it's a fair price and many backers paid more than that. The fact is, there's basically nothing that's really competing in the same niche as KotC2, except arguably the Pathfinder games if played in turn based mode. But even then, KotC2 has more options for tactical play such as grappling, etc.

Since it's highly unlikely that Pierre can compete against the Pathfinder graphics or budget, it looks as it is and his best bet is to just own it and look for the people who actually want this type of experience, not just +1 RPG for the backlog and monocle harvesting.

tl;dr It's a fair price, buy it and support actual quality RPGs, you shits!

 

[PorkaMorka]

Turn based tactics isn't that niche and neither is 3rd edition D&D.

Sure, turn based tactics is less popular than the mainstream genres, but it's not 51 people small. Battle Brothers peaked at 8k online and had long periods where it was hitting 2-3k peaks every day, with a home brew system, no magic, 2d sprites with no animation and no legs. And it had a $29.99 price most of the time although there were some sales.

Obviously not every game can expect that level of success, but Pierre chose to make his game overly niche with his design and marketing decisions, like gameplay based on reload spamming, a tiny hideous interface, pogs for graphics and a $44.99 price.

Obviously there's a huge audience for D&D based games as Pozzfinder illustrates.

Of course only a small percentage of those people would buy a more prestigious game, but it's still possible for a developer to tap into some portions of that audience if his game is marketed and priced right. Heck, the Pozzfinder devs actually promoted KOTC2, so it was definitely a possibility that some of those people would buy a well done D&D combat simulator.

But $44.99 + current marketing is outside of impulse buy range for most people who are interested in the genre but not specifically familiar with the Dev. It's a huge leap of faith to shell out that much for a game that *looks* prosperian in every respect.

Saying "this game is limited to a niche audience, therefore we should overpay for it" is whale mentality and it rewards bad behavior, encouraging the Dev to continue sabotaging himself. That's how you end up in the same situation that war gamers are in.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

The game doesn't looks like it would justify the bad Europe and USA pricing. People buy based on first impression. When they see token and/or the bad graphical asset, the first impression is shovelware. If not for knowing KotC1 and Codex badge of approval, I would never think to buy this game especially if it's at USA/WE pricing. People would never know the quality of the gameplay, thus 1st impression is important.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Turn based tactics isn't that niche and neither is 3rd edition D&D.

Sure, turn based tactics is less popular than the mainstream genres, but it's not 51 people small. Battle Brothers peaked at 8k online and had long periods where it was hitting 2-3k peaks every day, with a home brew system, no magic, 2d sprites with no animation and no legs. And it had a $29.99 price most of the time although there were some sales.

Obviously not every game can expect that level of success, but Pierre chose to make his game overly niche with his design and marketing decisions, like gameplay based on reload spamming, a tiny hideous interface, pogs for graphics and a $44.99 price.

Obviously there's a huge audience for D&D based games as Pozzfinder illustrates.

Of course only a small percentage of those people would buy a more prestigious game, but it's still possible for a developer to tap into some portions of that audience if his game is marketed and priced right. Heck, the Pozzfinder devs actually promoted KOTC2, so it was definitely a possibility that some of those people would buy a well done D&D combat simulator.

But $44.99 + current marketing is outside of impulse buy range for most people who are interested in the genre but not specifically familiar with the Dev. It's a huge leap of faith to shell out that much for a game that *looks* prosperian in every respect.

Saying "this game is limited to a niche audience, therefore we should overpay for it" is whale mentality and it rewards bad behavior, encouraging the Dev to continue sabotaging himself. That's how you end up in the same situation that war gamers are in.

I think you make a few good points and it's true that Pierre could have priced somewhat lower in order to have tried to reach the sweet spot of maximal rewards. I'm sure he tried to. I suppose my main point is that I don't think the sweet spot is as low as some seem to think it is and that even if he priced it at $2, this isn't going to reach some sort of critical mass like Minecraft or Angry Birds or something.

I'm not sure that 3E D&D or hard turn based tactics are as popular as you seem to think. The Pathfinder games had two or three things going for them that KOTC2 doesn't: RTWP that reminded people of the Infinity Engine stuff, pretty pictures, arguably licensing. Yet, people whined about the difficulty, the fact that it was more complicated than the Infinity Engine games, etc. Even games that are more popular like the nu-XCom stuff got there in large part by being relatively easy and streamlined/dumbed down compared to the originals. I think in order to turn this corner, you'd have to look at what people tend to say about the original Fallouts now. (Hint: many of them can't believe that anyone wanted to play them and figure Fallout starts at Fallout 3). Really where I'm going with this is that the exact type of content that appeals to people about the KOTC games (character building, approaching encounters and trying to figure out how to solve them with the abilities and resources the party has) is exactly what you're talking about shaving away in order to make more money.

I won't pretend to speak with experience on exactly what happened with the war game market, however, tastes do change. That stupid Dragon Age tactics minigame they used to promote the release of Origins years ago was ridiculously easy. I sent feedback saying it was a lot of fun, I just wished they made the hardest difficulty actually challenging. Later, Bioware discussed the feedback received and it was overwhelmingly that the game was too hard on normal. So... YMMV, but understand that the vast majority of people, while (perhaps) not being borderline retarded, aren't very good at tactical thinking or attention to details that is important in this sort of game. In order to appeal to a broader market, you start grinding down the difficulty and appeal of the game to its niche. I think it's been pretty clear since the beginning what sort of game Pierre was keen on making.

On top of that, the fact that it's coming with a complete toolset to build your own dream adventure, perhaps with a far more relaxed difficulty and/or some nicer art assets also warrants consideration.

The niche audiences aren't being punished or rewarding bad behaviour. It's a simple fact of business that if you're chasing a niche market segment that has a very small amount of people, you need to charge more and roll the dice that that niche will be underserved enough and want it enough to pay for it. If you want broader appeal, you can design with those considerations and a lower price point. You see this all over the gaming industry. Do note though, that I'm not at all suggesting that there aren't things that Pierre could have done/could do to try and broaden the appeal of the game. I'm just not entirely convinced that changing the price is the highest priority on that list.

 

[Reinhardt]

no magic, 2d sprites with no animation and no legs

like it's something bad.
i'm playing kotc2 using tokens showing only head and it's gud!

 

[Serus]

I think some miss an important issue. What I, as player of KotC2 who like it the way it is, for the most part - want? Because personally, as long as Pierre gets enough to pay for his roots and make new contents, I don't care that much about his sales. The question is obvious - will he get enough money with his legendary marketing skills? If the answer is "yes" then there is no problem for me. It would be nice if he could earn good money on this, I like the man for making those games but i like even more those games staying the way they are in the future. Saying that i don't mean technical aspects but then being niche and NOT appealing to wider audience. Even Pierre, as crazy as it sounds, could someday succumb to decline. He wouldn't be the first indie developer. Maybe not considering his... personality but entropy consumes everything so better be on the safe side.

 

[Reinhardt]

i'm only angery because with this price he killed potential modding community before it even started.

 

[Serus]

i'm only angery because with this price he killed potential modding community before it even started.

True, that is something to consider but I'm not sure if better chances existed for a real community to form even if he had priced it lower. Say 30$, let's be reasonable here, this is a game that took a long a time to make and we are talking Pierre here.

 

[JarlFrank]

I don't know. Does someone who thinks that Disco Elysium is a masterpiece even in the right audience for KOTC2? Does he know it's not a visual novel?

I consider Disco Elysium a masterpiece and I pledged 500 bucks to the KotC2 Kickstarter and think it was worth it

 

[Reinhardt]

On top of that, the fact that it's coming with a complete toolset to build your own dream adventure, perhaps with a far more relaxed difficulty and/or some nicer art assets also warrants consideration.

my main problem with both kotc games is that they are too caster-oriented, so that's why i'm so interested in toolset.

 

[mediocrepoet]

On top of that, the fact that it's coming with a complete toolset to build your own dream adventure, perhaps with a far more relaxed difficulty and/or some nicer art assets also warrants consideration.

my main problem with both kotc games is that they are too caster-oriented, so that's why i'm so interested in toolset.

I tried to do the optional battle at the end of KOTC1 with 2 knights. It wasn't nice.

 

[Tweed]

my main problem with both kotc games is that they are too caster-oriented, so that's why i'm so interested in toolset.

It's 3.5, what did you expect? Honestly though my gladiators were just as vital to my success as my casters. At no point do they fall by the wayside.

I need a gud mapping utility that actually works so I can try to make some kobold brothel modules.

 

[JarlFrank]

Also, as someone who pledged 500 bucks to the Kickstarter I obviously don't have a problem with the price on a personal level. But I still believe Pierre should lower it in order to attract a larger audience, which will only be beneficial to his finances and the game's modding scene. 40 Eurobucks is way too fucking much and not priced competitively at all. There are many other tactical RPGs out there, and while KotC2 is definitely the best gameplay-wise (but not visually), it shouldn't be priced so much higher than everything else in the genre. People who play games like this are likely familiar with what the average price for a tactical RPG looks like, and will notice that KotC2 is way overpriced compared to its peers.

Let's compare, shall we:

The recently released Telepath Tactics Liberated costs 20,99€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1849820/Telepath_Tactics_Liberated/

It's got a similar level of complexity to its combat as KotC2, but with a ruleset that's more inspired by Japanese SRPGs like Fire Emblem. Really good game, and a fair price that justifies an impulse purchase.

The Age of Fear games cost 24,99€ and there's a discounted bundle to get them all. Pierre should have done a bundle like that for KotC 1 + 2, too.
https://store.steampowered.com/bundle/622/Age_of_Fear_Series_Bundle_Complete/

Age of Fear also has a very simple top-down look that could be compared to KotC2. Considering each game in the series has over 100 user reviews and a positive overall review score, the games are doing pretty well for this niche. I discovered the series when I bought Age of Fear 2 during a summer sale at a massive discount, I only paid 2 bucks for it or so. Loved the game and ended up also buying Age of Fear 3 and 4 when they came out, as well as their DLCs. That's how you create an audience: offer a low barrier of entry, lots of people will impulse buy your game, then the ones who love it will keep buying your stuff. There's also a free version of Age of Fear which only offers random battles rather than a hand-designed campaign, which serves as an extended demo. Anyone can try out the gameplay for free and get a taste of how it plays before shelling out 25 bucks for one of the full-fledged games. Great business model, and the fact that the dev keeps shitting out new Age of Fear titles shows that it works.

The Dungeon of Naheulbeuk, a French parody tactical RPG with pretty good production values, costs 34,99€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/970830/The_Dungeon_Of_Naheulbeuk_The_Amulet_Of_Chaos/

This one is priced at the higher end of the subgenre, yet it's still 5 bucks cheaper than KotC2. Just look at it. As a casual fan of the genre browsing through Steam, you see this for 35 bucks and then you see KotC2 for 40 bucks. Which one will you buy? What are you going to think about KotC2's pricing? You're gonna scratch your head and wonder what's going on, for sure.

Battle Brothers is 27,99€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/365360/Battle_Brothers/

I wouldn't really compare Battle Brothers with KotC2 because they're different types of games: BB has a procedural campaign with no hand-made encounters, which plays very differently to a hand-designed game like KotC. But it's a widely popular tactical RPG... that costs 12 bucks less.

And then you have the lower end of the pricing spectrum with games like these:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/643900/Alvora_Tactics/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1188270/The_Curse_of_Feldar_Vale/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1174030/Hero_Lodge/

So, within the context of the subgenre, KotC is definitely overpriced. And there already have been voices on the Steam forums claiming they would have bought it if the price weren't so high. I talked to a guy I met on the Mobygames Discord who loves the classic Dark Sun games and showed him KotC2. Had him read my positive review for the game. He got pretty excited about it... and put it on his wishlist to be notified of a future sale, because at the current price point it's too expensive for him. There are many such cases. KotC2 is as indie as it gets, yet it's priced like a big budget production.

What I would suggest is to price KotC2 at 24,99€ and KotC1 at 9,99€ and offer a bundle that gives you a 10% discount for buying both. That way, Pierre would be more in line with the average pricing of the subgenre and fewer people would be put off by it.

 

[Tweed]

Let him get the big money he's going to get from devoted fans who missed the KS, then let him drop the price. Remember, Cleve didn't want to cut the price on Grimoire either and now it's 10bux.

 

[Reinhardt]

imagine making porn module to split profits with pierre and selling it for 50$

 

[AdolfSatan]

I need a gud mapping utility that actually works so I can try to make some kobold brothel modules.

JarlFrank throw this nigga a bone

Also, KS for your module when