KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Desiderius]

Drawback on any Cloud or Surface spell is opportunity cost. What Cloud or Surface are you not using to apply it?

Grease vs Quicksand, Stinking vs Silent.

 

[Desiderius]

65ft radius Cone vs 30ft radius Ball

13^2/6^2*4 = 169/144

More squares and depending on fight better shape but harder to position at times.

 

[Jvegi]

The only drawback I see is that it is in the same level as Haste, with only one wizard in party it becomes a problem.

3rdE D&D is broken with two mages.

Are any games good? They're not.

 

[Serus]

Change of mind about Reach domain: 5%.

Well, that's high for you so I'll try.

(1) Mysticism is a must for an offensive caster (as opposed to fighting with one of the Martial Domains, say, then just healing and buffing otherwise), so it's not about Mysticism vs Reach. Hard to drop Mysticism in any scenario.

(2) Increasing your reach in general is really good for offensive casters since the hardest fights get spread out all over the place, and especially for Bishop/Cleric because you want your Move actions free for the buffs.

(3) If you want to cast offensively as a Bishop/Cleric there aren't a ton of options in the first few levels (especially 2nd level), and that's where the bulk of your casts are for most of the game. Reach turns on Sound Burst as a viable spell (Close AoEs are a major pain) and turns Smite from good to great.

(4) Damage + disable spells double up your action economy, and both Burst and especially Smite get around Resists/Immunities. Smite being enemies only checks about all the boxes.

(5) Sounds like from the rest of your comments that you haven't done the math yet on how radius effects area. Even Energy Cone for instance 65/50 = 13/10 = 30% more radius, but 13^2/10^2 = 169/100 = 70% more area. The effect is substantially larger from Reach Domain.

"High for me"? Look who is talking.

You are theorising in case of Energy Cone radius. It doesn't matter even if its one million % larger radius with the feat if enemies you really need to target are placed within the basic range of Cone. It is not always the case - but it's close enough to not warrant a feat in my opinion. From practice.

As to Sound Burst, I never thought of that... or I did: "...reach gives some good increases in range/radius [...] for [...] Sound Burst." I agree about Sound Burst. At level 2 options are limited. It's hard to use SB with only 1 range feat. As to Smite, it's a nice buff but not as crucial. However we are talking about one of two domains for a Cleric. When the alternatives are Mysticism, Magic, Flux and more... it doesn't sound that good anymore. I'm not saying Reach is rubbish but that is worse than several other options. I would be more inclined to take it as Bishop.

Another option for level 2 offensive spell for a cleric would be magic stone + still or silent metamagic. That would require a feat though but the ability to cast anything at 1 level higher has its uses. This is purely theoretical from my part and possibly a very bad idea.

 

[Desiderius]

No, my point in giving you the hard time is that often enough you’re the one theorizing. I’ve decided some things aren’t worth it after trying them but the things you dismiss and the way you dismiss them tell me you haven’t.

70% more area isn’t theoretical, it readily quantifiable as a number of squares on the battlefield and if you've ever cast the Improved Cone in the Gob fight or Pizarra fight you’d appreciate the dramatic difference, even if you decide that it doesn’t come up enough to be worth it.

That kind of area of effect is what makes Acorns of Earthquake so game-changing.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s not just some more range/area. Long range is a big part of why the various ball spells are so good. Medium is dramatically different from Close (a lot easier to miss own team), and Long from Medium (can reach enemies who can't reach you).

But the radius is the big thing. 30/20 = 3/2 for radius, which is 9/4 for area. More than double! Completely changes what you’re doing. And if you’ve ever been Slowed you understand how powerful that effect is. Then factor in AoE, enemies only, few things immune to it, stackable with clouds and surfaces, and hard to resist damage all in the same standard action and there are few spells that can beat it.

The Cleric Pierre recommends for tutorial has Mysticism and Reach BTW. Magic gives staying power, Reach dramatically upgrades your top end offense. I get staying power from going Bishop and using my Turning activations. If you’re not you can always dump CHR to do some fighting instead, and Cleric eventually gets the high end spells as well.

 

[Desiderius]

As for Flux, I’ve never played a game outside MMOs where in combat healing is good action economy compared to presenting threats either in the form of damage or debilitation (or both) so it’s not something I’ve tested.

This may be the game where it’s finally worth it but I don’t see where adding three squares to your heals is worth giving up the whole reason you play the class (the free feats and dramatically upgraded spells from other domains).

Conversely I could see a Bishop with Flux, Devastation, Destruction, etc doing a lot of irresistible damage.

 

[Serus]

You ever called other people - not just me - condescending or arrogant. You would think the reality would bend or some cosmic cataclysm would happen due to sheer power of irony.
I love you Desiderius. I'm also somewhat drunk so it might explain some, all, or none of the things i write here

70% more area isn’t theoretical, it readily quantifiable as a number of squares on the battlefield and if you e ever cast the Improved Cone in the Gob fight or Pizarra fight you’d appreciate the dramatic difference, even if you decide that it doesn’t come up enough to be worth it

Fun fact, when i wrote my post you are answering to i thought exactly about Pizarra fight. How things differ from person to person, eh? We use as example, for opposite claims, the exact same thing. Funny. Maybe it depends on perception, or different understanding of some words? Maybe because i had a psionic that used basic Cone and you had an upgraded Cone, assuming not theory on your part. Everyone saw that his approach works so it must be good. Or maybe it's me being theoretical when playing the game and you counting the squares and % are the practical one? Who knows. From my perspective the inability or ability to target some of the weaker enemies that are so far away that they won't even be a problem for one more turn isn't "dramatic" at all.

Try to use something called positioning, will help with ranges, you'll see. [condescending power]


Unless you are drunk like myself, three posts responding to a single one are a bit excessive methinks. No offence - at least in this part of the post. It's a bit annoying in my opinion, that's all.

 

[Tweed]

All this badmouthing about Reach. I found Reach incredibly helpful, but I always pair it with Flux. I want my cleric to be able to heal my guys from anywhere on the field or even hit foes with harm when need be. In my very first victory back in the 1.0 days I did flux with magic which was okay, but I feel saving the three range feats so I can spend them on stuff like smite, penetration and heal boosting is a better investment.

EDIT: I really haven't tried the other domains and I felt like the Bishop class was weak, I want those high level cleric spells.

 

[Serus]

All this badmouthing about Reach. I found Reach incredibly helpful, but I always pair it with Flux. I want my cleric to be able to heal my guys from anywhere on the field or even hit foes with harm when need be. In my very first victory back in the 1.0 days I did flux with magic which was okay, but I feel saving the three range feats so I can spend them on stuff like smite, penetration and heal boosting is a better investment.

EDIT: I really haven't tried the other domains and I felt like the Bishop class was weak, I want those high level cleric spells.

I think You miss the point. Mysticism gives you THREE feats that you need anyway. If you want you can get the same feats that Reach would give You. It all comes to choosing if you want more:
a) better Sound Burst + Smite + Magic Stone
vs
b) better Bless + Bane + Prayer + Greater Prayer - at move speed and +2 concetration.
Which is better, as the previous discussion proved, can be disputed.
The 3x extended range feats are irrelevant in this calculation. The choice is not about feats here because 3=3, duh.

I still find weird the need of having all 3 extended range feats though. So many useful feats that can't be replicated by good positioning and so few feat picks - especially on Archmage.

 

[Tweed]

I think You miss the point. Mysticism gives you THREE feats that you need anyway. If you want you can get the same feats that Reach would give You. It all comes to choosing if you want more:
a) better Sound Burst + Smite + Magic Stone
vs
b) better Bless + Bane + Prayer + Greater Prayer - at move speed and +2 concetration.
Which is better, as the previous discussion proved, can be disputed.
The 3x extended range feats are irrelevant in this calculation. The choice is not about feats here because 3=3, duh.

I still find weird the need of having all 3 extended range feats though. So many useful feats that can't be replicated by good positioning and so few feat picks - especially on Archmage.

Looking at it closer I see what you mean, but reach still gives you additional benefits besides those feats with enhanced to hit on magic stone which is a great spell that requires good to hit to make use of and reach automatically turns sound burst and smite from close to medium and medium to long as well as increasing their radius of effect. 10 to 1 half dozen to the other.

EDIT: My playstyle makes me lean towards having max range on every caster, I want to control as much of the battlefield as I possibly can.

 

[Oligryan]

As for Flux, I’ve never played a game outside MMOs where in combat healing is good action economy compared to presenting threats either in the form of damage or debilitation (or both) so it’s not something I’ve tested.

This may be the game where it’s finally worth it but I don’t see where adding three squares to your heals is worth giving up the whole reason you play the class (the free feats and dramatically upgraded spells from other domains).

Conversely I could see a Bishop with Flux, Devastation, Destruction, etc doing a lot of irresistible damage.

Playing a Bishop laser Jesus build became a lot more appealing to me after learning that the Flux, Life, Curing, and Healing domains all also apply to wands, scrolls, and even that one scimitar that lets you cast heal once per encounter as a SLA. It was, however, annoying to learn that you have to still have to roll for your Jesus lasers even if you're within regular touch range of an ally. You can even miss OoC, though that's likely not intended, and it doesn't lessen the fun of watching your Bishop obliterate any and all undead in their path.

 

[Tweed]

Another benefit of the kobold cleric is that high dex score, touch attacks usually work.

 

[Oligryan]

Kobolds are respectable at it, but Halflings are simply unmatched when it comes to bad touch. Doubly so for molester clerics.

 

[Desiderius]

You don't need all three extended range feats, but you feel the difference between having them and not having them.

The positioning point is moot - you use range to open up areas for your spells that aren't there without it whatever your positioning because something else is in the way. As for weaker enemies in the Pizarra fight: it's exactly the band of casters that can chuck long range spells at you that Improved Cone reaches that regular cone can't. That's the point. Same for killing the Goblin Chieftains, Shamans, and Rangers in the Gob fight before they can even get a spell off. Improved cone reaches across the water while regular doesn't.

Maybe because i had a psionic that used basic Cone and you had an upgraded Cone

No, you're missing my point. I've tested it with both so I get the difference. You haven't. I can tell. So yes I'm condescending on this topic exactly because I'm more experienced than you.

 

[Desiderius]

Unless you are drunk like myself, three posts responding to a single one are a bit excessive methinks.

There were three distinct topics raised. You opened a discussion and now you have several.

 

[Jermu]

I find it very annoying that when some spells say it has 100% chance to hit it can still miss because of touch attack roll

Regarding reach & other domains further discussion is probably not needed considering what it gives should be very easy to understand. There are shitload of great domains and I would rank reach in top5 easily

 

[Darth Canoli]

All this badmouthing about Reach. I found Reach incredibly helpful, but I always pair it with Flux. I want my cleric to be able to heal my guys from anywhere on the field or even hit foes with harm when need be. In my very first victory back in the 1.0 days I did flux with magic which was okay, but I feel saving the three range feats so I can spend them on stuff like smite, penetration and heal boosting is a better investment.

EDIT: I really haven't tried the other domains and I felt like the Bishop class was weak, I want those high level cleric spells.

Flux is amazing for the increased range of all the harm, inflict, cure and heal spells.
Really good paired with Curing, turning cure/mass and heal spells into a move action or Life/healing to get them all empowered for free.
Next time, I'm either picking a Bishop heal bot or a Bishop "paladin".

The cure ability from curing domain sucks though because it requires a ranged touch.

Another benefit of the kobold cleric is that high dex score, touch attacks usually work.

Dex Cleric is an heresy!
Cleric go full WIS/CON and is you want to improve ranged touch, just pick zen archery.

 

[Jvegi]

Building the party. I liked the bard from the tutorial, so I'm creating one. 14/14/12/13/8/18 on human. Looks wrong, but I'm confused by their combat prowess. What to do? I'm thinking about giving her a spear, so she can dish out accidental long range aoo damage from relative safety in medium armor.

Btw, fuck steam reviews, mixed at the moment. Lame crybabies. Although, the high price makes their bitching about the difficulty a bit understandable. Just a bit.

 

[Serus]

You don't need all three extended range feats, but you feel the difference between having them and not having them.

The positioning point is moot - you use range to open up areas for your spells that aren't there without it whatever your positioning because something else is in the way. As for weaker enemies in the Pizarra fight: it's exactly the band of casters that can chuck long range spells at you that Improved Cone reaches that regular cone can't. That's the point. Same for killing the Goblin Chieftains, Shamans, and Rangers in the Gob fight before they can even get a spell off. Improved cone reaches across the water while regular doesn't.

Maybe because i had a psionic that used basic Cone and you had an upgraded Cone

No, you're missing my point. I've tested it with both so I get the difference. You haven't. I can tell. So yes I'm condescending on this topic exactly because I'm more experienced than you.

It's always the Desderius-man who, when he is condescending or theoretical, is always right. When someone else is, it's wrong. In this particular case no one is theoretical and you are being an asshole. I played Pizarra fight very many times, just with one party. It's one of the funniest battles in the game.

I believe I understand your points, I certainly try to. You are not even trying to understand that, perhaps, the point you argue and the point I argue are not about the exact same thing and that yours is not the only one that matters. See if i got it right, ok?
Your claim: Upgraded Cone can reach more squares => damage a lot more enemies/casters => much easier to win => it's great.
My claim: It reaches only some additional secondary targets in few battle => only slightly easier => you can deal with the enemy anyway => not good.
As you can see it all hinges on very subjective notion "some vs a lot" and "slightly vs much". We'd have to agree to an objective measure. Are 2, 3, 5 or 7 additional enemies a lot? What is easier? Less turns? Less HP lost?. And all that on not taking into account additional variables like opportunity cost or number of battles in game where is is useful at all (=very few) - which are not part of your argument, i get it. But I don't ignore them completely.

BTW. What level were you when fighting those battles? Because my cone sure as hell wasn't strong enough to kill any goblin Shaman in one cast. Unless you followed up with a Wizard spell that had similar range and enough power? Then it's a playstyle to nuke everything in site. Maybe if you were able to kill them in one cast then it was truly worth it for you. However if you have to do it in 2 rounds then you are better disable them first and kill them after they disabled. Which you can't do with upgraded Cone because by that time your guys are in the way. Unless you have Cone Shaping too. Which, BTW, i find a much stronger feat, there are very few battles to use effectively 65 range but there many smaller battles to use shaping.
Additionally it was Enchanter for me, maybe on Archmage that would play different.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm not always right. I'm often wrong. That's why I test things to find out which is which.

 

[Jermu]

Building the party. I liked the bard from the tutorial, so I'm creating one. 14/14/14/13/8/18 on human. Looks wrong, but I'm confused by their combat prowess. What to do? I'm thinking about giving her a spear, so she can dish out accidental long range aoo damage from relative safety in medium armor.

Btw, fuck steam reviews, mixed at the moment. Lame crybabies. Although, the high price makes their bitching about the difficulty a bit understandable. Just a bit.

Im only using bard for songs since it is quite hard to make viable melee bard with high/maxed cha/int. But some melee potential should help out early game. Your attribute distribution seems good enough. I would probably lower dex/con for more str/int but that should work out also (my bard is elf with maxed int/cha and then some dex/con)
If you are playing lower difficulty than archmage (with more feats) then reach weapon or whatever should be fine when you got more feats to spare. Not sure about bows since I have never tried to make made decent bow build but I would probably test that.

 

[Jermu]

Your claim: Upgraded Cone can reach more squares => damage a lot more enemies/casters => much easier to win => it's great.
My claim: It reaches only some additional secondary targets in few battle => only slightly easier => you can deal with the enemy anyway => not good.
As you can see it all hinges on very subjective notion "some vs a lot" and "slightly vs much". We'd have to agree to an objective measure. Are 2, 3, 5 or 7 additional enemies a lot? What is easier? Less turns? Less HP lost?. And all that on not taking into account additional variables like opportunity cost or number of battles in game where is is useful at all (=very few) - which are not part of your argument, i get it. But I don't ignore them completely.

BTW. What level were you when fighting those battles? Because my cone sure as hell wasn't strong enough to kill any goblin Shaman in one cast.

lvl 7, playing with all archmage rules. Cone also hitting 1 other goblin which did not fit into screen

 

[Desiderius]

Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Drop INT and play Human (limited to 18 CHR) and you can be pretty good at all three action economies, though I mostly shoot and use weapon slot for Heal Scimitar. Full BAB and Human/Bonus Feats facilitate Rapid Shot ranged well.

Can cast effectively once you get +CHR instrument but Silence and Healing always good.

I don’t like Reach because Bard is one of few classes that can use Heavy Shield.

Alternatively can go Mantis with two-weapon and end up with infinite attacks. Musketeer relic Rapier perfect for this. I’d do this if you aren’t running Rogue.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Bard is a subpar fighter or archer, last time I played one, without any INT, I ran out of songs pretty often, then again, I played without additional campfires.