KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

[Serus]

Strangely quiet here already.

I'll give a subject.

Spells! What are the best non-obvious spells in the game. Leave Haste or and good permanent buffs like Mirror Image alone, everyone knows them. Not using those would be considered stupid or a challenge.

1. Grease - this one actually is in the category of too good to pass, it's a 1st level spell/power that can be used to good effect even late in game.
2. Quicksand - same as above but 2nd level and Druid's spell list only. One of the best "cheap" disabling spells.
3. Glitterdust - blind is a strong debuff, only level 2. I like it. Blinded not only gives 50% concealment but also halves the speed and prevents 5-foot-step. And no spell resistance.
4. Confusion, great AOE disabling spell, comes relatively early at level 4. There is a 30% chance for the target to attack nearest creature which can have great effect but is very random.
5. Energy Missile - 2nd level power, needs a feat and is best situational when there are several wounded enemies to kill fast, which is often. A multi auto-hit attack with good damage is great.

The biggest letdown:
1. Insect Plague - sounds bad ass but for a level 5 spell is meh.

Any favourites of yours? Remember, level is important. A spell that would be great in Chapter 2 and is level 6 is not very good.

 

[Dorateen]

How about Burning Hands, or Flaming Sphere, not for damage but to burn away enemy webs or grease when the party is stuck. Won't be effective on the resilient versions of those spells, but at lower levels, it's a way to counter those pesky terrain effects.

 

[Jermu]

What are the best non-obvious spells in the game.
1. Grease

:D

Anyway Im a big fan of Holy Smite with reach domain which gives mandatory feats also
Different sleep spells are surprisingly great in some encounters
Cone of cold aoe is satisfying
Stomp, silence & energy cone/ball are obvious picks
Fire elemental is great early

 

[Serus]

What are the best non-obvious spells in the game.
1. Grease

:D

Anyway Im a big fan of Holy Smite with reach domain which gives mandatory feats also
Different sleep spells are surprisingly great in some encounters
Cone of cold aoe is satisfying
Stomp, silence & energy cone/ball are obvious picks
Fire elemental is great early

Well, Grease is sort of obvious. What maybe not always obvious is how versatile it can be. It can directly get the enemy prone. If you are lucky to keep it that way for a turn or two. Even if the enemy wont trip he gets "balancing" status, makes him easy to trip/bull rush or even Gust of Wind-him. It can be used to move an enemy to a lower level square from range - which might even be a damage square in a some battles. I don't think there is another spell that has so many interactions. In fact MORE spells should allow so many varied applications, this is what makes magic fun. Sure it's nice to destroy a group of enemies with an AOE damaging spell but it is even more fun to make a powerful demon trip because you made the floor slippery.

Sleep spells, the problem is that - in this game - enemy progression is so fast that the low level wizard sleep spells get unusable very fast.

Stomp is good but it requires a feat to really shine.

Fire elemental is good early that's true. The problem is the action economy which makes other type of summons better later - even when you get higher levels summon elemental spells. For that reason Cleric makes a bad (regular) summoner unless, maybe, you take a related domain.

How about Burning Hands, or Flaming Sphere, not for damage but to burn away enemy webs or grease when the party is stuck. Won't be effective on the resilient versions of those spells, but at lower levels, it's a way to counter those pesky terrain effects.

Yes, sometimes it's the only way, those webs in early game can be nasty. Burning hands can even, on occasions be used as a damaging spell. Good pick. And another example of an additional interaction. Damaging spells used as something else. Give me more.

 

[Desiderius]

(Improved) Mind Hammer and (Improved) Inflict Pain

All three of the Psi spells that let you add additional targets scale really well on a crowded battlefield. Combined with the Range Feats the added Range on Improved versions also give you a lot of command. Pain always does something even on save and helps CMs get there or makes Web/Entangle more effective at stopping both movement and spells.

Delta Waves is a good way to apply Sleep without worrying about HD limits. Improved Energy Cone has a massive area of effect.

Fog Cloud is good in the tutorial against the Golems since Magic Missile doesn't care about Concealment. Could also combo with Psi Improved Energy Missile.

Produce Flame with Fire Mastery (especially on Fire Druid) helps Druid staying power, as of course does Call Lightning. I use Call even on Storm Warrior. Meteors is handy to give Erzimon something decent to do when not casting.

Longstrider is something to keep in mind when playing a slow race.

Magic Arrow, Lesser (Free Action) is good on Ranger with Rapid Shot

Bard Dirge is nice to take a crack at on several bosses once you get the +4 CHR instrument and +2 DC Song. Attk debuff even helps CMs.

 

[Tweed]

Strangely quiet here already.

I'll give a subject.

Spells! What are the best non-obvious spells in the game. Leave Haste or and good permanent buffs like Mirror Image alone, everyone knows them. Not using those would be considered stupid or a challenge.

1. Grease - this one actually is in the category of too good to pass, it's a 1st level spell/power that can be used to good effect even late in game.
2. Quicksand - same as above but 2nd level and Druid's spell list only. One of the best "cheap" disabling spells.
3. Glitterdust - blind is a strong debuff, only level 2. I like it. Blinded not only gives 50% concealment but also halves the speed and prevents 5-foot-step. And no spell resistance.
4. Confusion, great AOE disabling spell, comes relatively early at level 4. There is a 30% chance for the target to attack nearest creature which can have great effect but is very random.
5. Energy Missile - 2nd level power, needs a feat and is best situational when there are several wounded enemies to kill fast, which is often. A multi auto-hit attack with good damage is great.

The biggest letdown:
1. Insect Plague - sounds bad ass but for a level 5 spell is meh.

Any favourites of yours? Remember, level is important. A spell that would be great in Chapter 2 and is level 6 is not very good.

Grease and Improved Grease are my two favorite spells, couldn't possibly be without them. Even if the target doesn't go prone at the start, any good attack or a second spell will topple them. You can even grease the lich pretty easily.
Burning Hands on a red wizard stays relevant for the entire game, especially when you empower it. Plus red wizards get empowered fireballs and the like for cheaper as well as Acid Blast which is killer.
I got a ton of mileage out of magic stone which is a level 1 spell, especially when empowered. It's good for finishing off weakened enemies and of course it wrecks undead. If you take the Magic Domain it gets even better, but I wouldn't sacrifice Reach or Flux for that.
I dunno how popular harm is among everyone, but harm on a flux cleric is deadly when you need extra damage.
And yeah improved mind hammer is a nice finisher if you've been pumping up your psions.

 

[Desiderius]

Forgot about Magic Stone. Wish it were second level since first level gets crowded with Bless (boosted by Mysticism) and your only Summon before lvl four.

With Reach Domain can disrupt casters from across the whole screen and damage scales with level.

 

[Jvegi]

Finished the tutorial. I was pretty easy overall, but I guess it makes sense given how it's supposed to teach you to utilize the mechanics and I know the mechanics. Onto the main adventure.

What worries me is the equipment issue. It's all the same with those 3rd edition games. You have a big table of effects items you find or craft can have and it all feels very gamey, especially when you're showered with +health/dexterity/fire resistance rings etc, like in the tutorial module. In BG items felt more unique and belonging to the world. I say get rid of crafting, or make it optional in appropriate modules.

BTW, can I use healing spells/items outside of combat without going into the spell book or the inventory? A hot-key or smth?

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned stinking cloud yet.

Most of my low level favorites were mentioned already (both stomps, sleep/fascination spells, holy smite, quicksand, burning hands, silence, cone of cold).

So besides these:

• Stinking Cloud (works against Pizarra, the crones, the goblin king, the hydra, many other fights, mostly against mages)
• True Seeing (known as the high level mages bane)
• Greater invisibility (no AOO, concealment, THC bonus)
  
• Vortex of Doom/ Whirlwind / Sirocco / Earthquake
  
• Hideous laughter/ Irresistible dance

Mostly, spells disabling many opponents at once and with side effects like making you fail your check when balancing on a grease tile and spells with ridiculous damage.
Or spells giving you an obvious advantage like greater invi. or accelerated spells.

For a low level campaign, coulour spray on a specialized mage do wonders as well.

BTW, can I use healing spells/items outside of combat without going into the spell book or the inventory? A hot-key or smth?

Not yet but it's planned.

 

[Serus]

Forgot about Magic Stone. Wish it were second level since first level gets crowded with Bless (boosted by Mysticism) and your only Summon before lvl four.

With Reach Domain can disrupt casters from across the whole screen and damage scales with level.

I never use cleric summons past early game but with Magic domain magic stone has some uses occasionally and more slots help too use it as well. Next time (if there will be one) without Magic it will be certainly less useful. I plan taking Flux, it sounds great.
Why is Reach Domain so good? I don't see it.

Agree on the Psion sleep spells, they are better than wizard ones, the limit on had is very bad is such campaign. In a low-level or slow campaign it would be different.

I didn't take Psion Cone with increased aoe feat. How many battles there are in the game where the additional aoe is useful? Before chapter 4, maybe 3 fights. And that's being extremely generous, unmodified cone still covers everything of what you really need. I took cone shaping instead and it served me well.

 

[Serus]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned stinking cloud yet.

Most of my low level favorites were mentioned already (both stomps, sleep/fascination spells, holy smite, quicksand, burning hands, silence, cone of cold).

So besides these:

• Stinking Cloud (works against Pizarra, the crones, the lizard king, the hydra, many other fights, mostly against mages)
• True Seeing (known as the high level mages bane)
• Greater invisibility (no AOO, concealment, THC bonus)
  
• Vortex of Doom/ Whirlwind / Sirocco / Earthquake
  
• Hideous laughter/ Irresistible dance

Mostly, spells disabling many opponents at once and with side effects like making you fail your check when balancing on a grease tile and spells with ridiculous damage.
Or spells giving you an obvious advantage like greater invi. or accelerated spells.

For a low level campaign, coulour spray on a specialized mage do wonders as well.

Stinking Cloud is great, no doubt about it. It was so in other games as well. And is low(-ish) level. The only drawback I see is that it is in the same level as Haste, with only one wizard in party it becomes a problem.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Also, Xadriphar wiped the floor with my party.
Went there with 4 characters already cursed, didn't think about curing them but it didn't proc that much.

Empower/maximise Chain lightning did ridiculous damage, same for empowered or maximized Harm/mass harm, 240 damage on my fighter, others took only half, not sure what happened.

And the skellies finished the job, couldn't resurrect fast enough.

Came back and locked him in a corner, he didn't summon the skellies and died fast, sad and alone...

Stinking Cloud is great, no doubt about it. It was so in other games as well. And is low(-ish) level. The only drawback I see is that it is in the same level as Haste, with only one wizard in party it becomes a problem.

If you have enough skewer weapons, you don't really need haste.
Later, you get 2 pair of boots of haste.

When you do need haste, it's alright to cast it on the second turn, even if it targets less fighters.

 

[Jermu]

You can always pick Celerity domain. Also haste is not too important if you are caster heavy party and if u have 1 or 2 melee you can just use those boosts that give speed
Reach gives 3 mandatory feats (spell ranges) and is beneficial for holy smite and magic stone which both have been mentioned in this page multiple times. Sound burst is also useful spell
Regarding psio cone dont see reason not to pick all beneficial feats for that ability or ball (poison is kinda meh since lightning is so great in most situations). For example in castle area there are enemies in wide space so huge aoe spells are great. But if any spell does not affect allies there is no reason not to have as much as possible aoe in 99% of situations

 

[Serus]

You can always pick Celerity domain.
Reach gives 3 mandatory feats (spell ranges) and is beneficial for holy smite and magic stone which both have been mentioned in this page

Yes, you CAN but a Cleric has only two domain slots and in my opinion there are many better ones than Celerity. Opportunity cost and all that.
I don't believe 3 range feats are mandatory at ALL. Even less so on a cleric. One - sure, two - if you can afford and want it later, three - never took it on anyone, never saw a situation when it would make a real difference.
Compare with Mysticism: 2x focus, 1x penetration and +2 concentration on top. Those are truly must have. Sure reach gives some good increases in range/radius category for useful cleric offensive spells, especially Sound Burst but compared to the ability to cast in practice 2 spells in first round it's weak.
Mysticism >>>> Reach in my opinion. And if take Mysticism then i wan't something better that Reach as second domain.

Change of mind about Reach domain: 5%.

 

[Desiderius]

Change of mind about Reach domain: 5%.

Well, that's high for you so I'll try.

(1) Mysticism is a must for an offensive caster (as opposed to fighting with one of the Martial Domains, say, then just healing and buffing otherwise), so it's not about Mysticism vs Reach. Hard to drop Mysticism in any scenario.

(2) Increasing your reach in general is really good for offensive casters since the hardest fights get spread out all over the place, and especially for Bishop/Cleric because you want your Move actions free for the buffs.

(3) If you want to cast offensively as a Bishop/Cleric there aren't a ton of options in the first few levels (especially 2nd level), and that's where the bulk of your casts are for most of the game. Reach turns on Sound Burst as a viable spell (Close AoEs are a major pain) and turns Smite from good to great.

(4) Damage + disable spells double up your action economy, and both Burst and especially Smite get around Resists/Immunities. Smite being enemies only checks about all the boxes.

(5) Sounds like from the rest of your comments that you haven't done the math yet on how radius effects area. Even Energy Cone for instance 65/50 = 13/10 = 30% more radius, but 13^2/10^2 = 169/100 = 70% more area. The effect is substantially larger from Reach Domain.

 

[Desiderius]

Drawback on any Cloud or Surface spell is opportunity cost. What Cloud or Surface are you not using to apply it?

Grease vs Quicksand, Stinking vs Silent.

 

[Desiderius]

65ft radius Cone vs 30ft radius Ball

13^2/6^2*4 = 169/144

More squares and depending on fight better shape but harder to position at times.

 

[Jvegi]

The only drawback I see is that it is in the same level as Haste, with only one wizard in party it becomes a problem.

3rdE D&D is broken with two mages.

Are any games good? They're not.

 

[Serus]

Change of mind about Reach domain: 5%.

Well, that's high for you so I'll try.

(1) Mysticism is a must for an offensive caster (as opposed to fighting with one of the Martial Domains, say, then just healing and buffing otherwise), so it's not about Mysticism vs Reach. Hard to drop Mysticism in any scenario.

(2) Increasing your reach in general is really good for offensive casters since the hardest fights get spread out all over the place, and especially for Bishop/Cleric because you want your Move actions free for the buffs.

(3) If you want to cast offensively as a Bishop/Cleric there aren't a ton of options in the first few levels (especially 2nd level), and that's where the bulk of your casts are for most of the game. Reach turns on Sound Burst as a viable spell (Close AoEs are a major pain) and turns Smite from good to great.

(4) Damage + disable spells double up your action economy, and both Burst and especially Smite get around Resists/Immunities. Smite being enemies only checks about all the boxes.

(5) Sounds like from the rest of your comments that you haven't done the math yet on how radius effects area. Even Energy Cone for instance 65/50 = 13/10 = 30% more radius, but 13^2/10^2 = 169/100 = 70% more area. The effect is substantially larger from Reach Domain.

"High for me"? Look who is talking.

You are theorising in case of Energy Cone radius. It doesn't matter even if its one million % larger radius with the feat if enemies you really need to target are placed within the basic range of Cone. It is not always the case - but it's close enough to not warrant a feat in my opinion. From practice.

As to Sound Burst, I never thought of that... or I did: "...reach gives some good increases in range/radius [...] for [...] Sound Burst." I agree about Sound Burst. At level 2 options are limited. It's hard to use SB with only 1 range feat. As to Smite, it's a nice buff but not as crucial. However we are talking about one of two domains for a Cleric. When the alternatives are Mysticism, Magic, Flux and more... it doesn't sound that good anymore. I'm not saying Reach is rubbish but that is worse than several other options. I would be more inclined to take it as Bishop.

Another option for level 2 offensive spell for a cleric would be magic stone + still or silent metamagic. That would require a feat though but the ability to cast anything at 1 level higher has its uses. This is purely theoretical from my part and possibly a very bad idea.

 

[Desiderius]

No, my point in giving you the hard time is that often enough you’re the one theorizing. I’ve decided some things aren’t worth it after trying them but the things you dismiss and the way you dismiss them tell me you haven’t.

70% more area isn’t theoretical, it readily quantifiable as a number of squares on the battlefield and if you've ever cast the Improved Cone in the Gob fight or Pizarra fight you’d appreciate the dramatic difference, even if you decide that it doesn’t come up enough to be worth it.

That kind of area of effect is what makes Acorns of Earthquake so game-changing.

 

[Desiderius]

It’s not just some more range/area. Long range is a big part of why the various ball spells are so good. Medium is dramatically different from Close (a lot easier to miss own team), and Long from Medium (can reach enemies who can't reach you).

But the radius is the big thing. 30/20 = 3/2 for radius, which is 9/4 for area. More than double! Completely changes what you’re doing. And if you’ve ever been Slowed you understand how powerful that effect is. Then factor in AoE, enemies only, few things immune to it, stackable with clouds and surfaces, and hard to resist damage all in the same standard action and there are few spells that can beat it.

The Cleric Pierre recommends for tutorial has Mysticism and Reach BTW. Magic gives staying power, Reach dramatically upgrades your top end offense. I get staying power from going Bishop and using my Turning activations. If you’re not you can always dump CHR to do some fighting instead, and Cleric eventually gets the high end spells as well.

 

[Desiderius]

As for Flux, I’ve never played a game outside MMOs where in combat healing is good action economy compared to presenting threats either in the form of damage or debilitation (or both) so it’s not something I’ve tested.

This may be the game where it’s finally worth it but I don’t see where adding three squares to your heals is worth giving up the whole reason you play the class (the free feats and dramatically upgraded spells from other domains).

Conversely I could see a Bishop with Flux, Devastation, Destruction, etc doing a lot of irresistible damage.

 

[Serus]

You ever called other people - not just me - condescending or arrogant. You would think the reality would bend or some cosmic cataclysm would happen due to sheer power of irony.
I love you Desiderius. I'm also somewhat drunk so it might explain some, all, or none of the things i write here

70% more area isn’t theoretical, it readily quantifiable as a number of squares on the battlefield and if you e ever cast the Improved Cone in the Gob fight or Pizarra fight you’d appreciate the dramatic difference, even if you decide that it doesn’t come up enough to be worth it

Fun fact, when i wrote my post you are answering to i thought exactly about Pizarra fight. How things differ from person to person, eh? We use as example, for opposite claims, the exact same thing. Funny. Maybe it depends on perception, or different understanding of some words? Maybe because i had a psionic that used basic Cone and you had an upgraded Cone, assuming not theory on your part. Everyone saw that his approach works so it must be good. Or maybe it's me being theoretical when playing the game and you counting the squares and % are the practical one? Who knows. From my perspective the inability or ability to target some of the weaker enemies that are so far away that they won't even be a problem for one more turn isn't "dramatic" at all.

Try to use something called positioning, will help with ranges, you'll see. [condescending power]


Unless you are drunk like myself, three posts responding to a single one are a bit excessive methinks. No offence - at least in this part of the post. It's a bit annoying in my opinion, that's all.

 

[Tweed]

All this badmouthing about Reach. I found Reach incredibly helpful, but I always pair it with Flux. I want my cleric to be able to heal my guys from anywhere on the field or even hit foes with harm when need be. In my very first victory back in the 1.0 days I did flux with magic which was okay, but I feel saving the three range feats so I can spend them on stuff like smite, penetration and heal boosting is a better investment.

EDIT: I really haven't tried the other domains and I felt like the Bishop class was weak, I want those high level cleric spells.

 

[Serus]

All this badmouthing about Reach. I found Reach incredibly helpful, but I always pair it with Flux. I want my cleric to be able to heal my guys from anywhere on the field or even hit foes with harm when need be. In my very first victory back in the 1.0 days I did flux with magic which was okay, but I feel saving the three range feats so I can spend them on stuff like smite, penetration and heal boosting is a better investment.

EDIT: I really haven't tried the other domains and I felt like the Bishop class was weak, I want those high level cleric spells.

I think You miss the point. Mysticism gives you THREE feats that you need anyway. If you want you can get the same feats that Reach would give You. It all comes to choosing if you want more:
a) better Sound Burst + Smite + Magic Stone
vs
b) better Bless + Bane + Prayer + Greater Prayer - at move speed and +2 concetration.
Which is better, as the previous discussion proved, can be disputed.
The 3x extended range feats are irrelevant in this calculation. The choice is not about feats here because 3=3, duh.

I still find weird the need of having all 3 extended range feats though. So many useful feats that can't be replicated by good positioning and so few feat picks - especially on Archmage.