Let's talk about Lacrymas' homebrew fantasy setting where paladins are eunuchs

[Storyfag]

Mages have quite a repertoire of destructive spells that Clerics and Druids generally don't. Druids get stuff like Call Lightning, Wall of Fire, and Ice Storm, but that pales in comparison to the Wizard's spell list. Conveniences like teleport, fly, invisibility, knock, etc. solve a lot of narrative problems that I wish to not be solved as easily. And yes, I am seeing it from a narrative perspective, not so much a mechanical one. Settings are about the stories possible within it, not about d20s.

Wrong. Pick for eg, nwn1 implosion. It is a save of die AoE which IGNORES deathblock and immunity to insta death effects.

As for the versatility of casters :
1 - You are talking about wizards, sorcerers and warlocks has a far more limited spell selection.
2 - A lot of this spells has counters. Teleport is countered by dimensional door.
3 - Even wizards needs a lot of scrolls to have that versatility. The power of an wizard is proportional to how often an DM allow then to buy scrolls.

Is entirely possible to make a setting where wizards needs to fully commit to a magic school. For eg, in this world, wizards needs to swear loyalty to a mage association which will give to then scrolls for that school. Can you name ONE "game breaking" spell if the wizard is restricted to be an water elementarist?

Puny mortals! Witness the devastation I have wrought! Witness the terror I have summoned!

 

[Lacrymas]

Mages have quite a repertoire of destructive spells that Clerics and Druids generally don't. Druids get stuff like Call Lightning, Wall of Fire, and Ice Storm, but that pales in comparison to the Wizard's spell list.

My Light cleric fireballed a dragon to death recently.

The clerics in my setting don't have access to arcane spells with their domains (obviously).

D&D Clerics as-written and having access to all spell circles, maybe. If their deities allow that to happen.

Don't tell me you also removed the concept of deities yearning for world domination and pushing their followers thusly.

And even if you did, you ALSO said that clerics can use their powers for any goal they please, as long as nobody realises it. So divine disapproval isn't really a factor in your setting, is it?

Yeah, there are no deities as in conscious beings working towards some goal and granting the clergy their powers.

Also, what happened when they invented nuclear weapons? The USA became the leading power in the world. They didn't hesitate to use it in order to ensure victory, I assume mages would be the same.

1) The USA was already one of the leading powers in the world at that point, nukes or no nukes. What nuclear weapons really did was putting direct wars between the major powers (the USA and the USSR) on hold and introducing wars by proxies, because neither side could afford the cold war going hot. It's also the reason why spies played a much larger role than ever before (even more so than during the WW2).

2) Nuclear weapons didn't ensure victory. The USSR attacking Manchuria did - it cut off Japan's resource base that was needed to fuel the industry. Very similar effect was achieved by Red Army capturing Silesia in Europe, because in severely reduced Germany's steel and coal output, meaning the front's requirements couldn't be reached physically, meaning soldiers wouldn't have the means to fight with.

To top it off, the Soviet Union's entry into the war against Japan made it virtually impossible for the Japanese to win for another reason: because they couldn't match two biggest military powers of that time. The USA was also supplying the Allies with equipment and still had a lot of manpower left to throw into the meat grinder, while the Soviet Union was by that point well both equipped and experienced after the long struggle with Germany.

Then it's even worse. They used the nuclear weapons because they could for some other arcane reason.

RE: Summoning animals for food - no, everything summoned in my setting crumbles to dust at the end and has no nutritional value

 

[Storyfag]

Yeah, there are no deities as in conscious beings working towards some goal and granting the clergy their powers.

So your clerics are just mages with slightly modified spell list, ahkay.

What was stopping them from being dominant totalitarian dictatorship forever?

 

[Bara]

Or you summon an animal and kill him and get food. Anyway, spells like create food would have massive impact in the world. Mainly if they are low level ones...

Why... why have I never done this before in a session. MEATS BACK ON THE MENU BOYS.

 

[Lacrymas]

So your clerics are just mages with slightly modified spell list, ahkay.

What was stopping them from being dominant totalitarian dictatorship forever?

Their magical powers depend on something else, not deities. It's a closely guarded secret, though, even most clergy don't know that.

 

[Delterius]

RE: Summoning animals for food - no, everything summoned in my setting crumbles to dust at the end and has no nutritional value

but can you use the dust as soil for agriculture

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

So your clerics are just mages with slightly modified spell list, ahkay.

What was stopping them from being dominant totalitarian dictatorship forever?

Their magical powers depend on something else, not deities.

But that makes them wizards with a different name and spell list.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

So your clerics are just mages with slightly modified spell list, ahkay.

What was stopping them from being dominant totalitarian dictatorship forever?

Their power depends on something else

Which side of the pillow you woke up on that particular morning?

 

[Lacrymas]

RE: Summoning animals for food - no, everything summoned in my setting crumbles to dust at the end and has no nutritional value

but can you use the dust as soil for agriculture

If it doesn't have nutritional value, it can't feed plants either.

 

[Yosharian]

Is entirely possible to make a setting where wizards needs to fully commit to a magic school. For eg, in this world, wizards needs to swear loyalty to a mage association which will give to then scrolls for that school

I actually kinda like this but some schools are so much better than others in terms of the spells they offer, so not sure if it's balanced out of the box

 

[Lacrymas]

But that makes them wizards with a different name and spell list.

Their powers can be taken away. Both political and magical. Some priests who have adventured suspect this, but it's not open knowledge. This is what I've been thinking if they turn out to have the same narrative problems as arcane casters, which I doubt, but we'll see. The "altered spell list" is a huge thing.

 

[Desiderius]

Also, what happened when they invented nuclear weapons? The USA became the leading power in the world. They didn't hesitate to use it in order to ensure victory, I assume mages would be the same.

1) The USA was already one of the leading powers in the world at that point, nukes or no nukes. What nuclear weapons really did was putting direct wars between the major powers (the USA and the USSR) on hold and introducing wars by proxies, because neither side could afford the cold war going hot. It's also the reason why spies played a much larger role than ever before (even more so than during the WW2).

2) Nuclear weapons didn't ensure victory. The USSR attacking Manchuria did - it cut off Japan's resource base that was needed to fuel the industry. Very similar effect was achieved by Red Army capturing Silesia in Europe, because in severely reduced Germany's steel and coal output, meaning the front's requirements couldn't be reached physically, meaning soldiers wouldn't have the means to fight with.

To top it off, the Soviet Union's entry into the war against Japan made it virtually impossible for the Japanese to win for another reason: because they couldn't match two biggest military powers of that time. The USA was also supplying the Allies with equipment and still had a lot of manpower left to throw into the meat grinder, while the Soviet Union was by that point well both equipped and experienced after the long struggle with Germany.

Nobody was conquering Japan by main force. The Manchurian point is a good one but it was almost surely both. The fact that the centers of Japanese Christianity were chosen as the nuke targets told the Chrysanthemum Throne that it's erstwhile allies had become possessed by demonic forces not to be trifled with in it's weakened state.

 

[Desiderius]

Is entirely possible to make a setting where wizards needs to fully commit to a magic school. For eg, in this world, wizards needs to swear loyalty to a mage association which will give to then scrolls for that school

I actually kinda like this but some schools are so much better than others in terms of the spells they offer, so not sure if it's balanced out of the box

That's a design problem that can be readily fixed once each school has a clear identity and purpose.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

But that makes them wizards with a different name and spell list.

Their powers can be taken away. Both political and magical. Some priests who have adventured suspect this, but it's not open knowledge.

Why can't Wizard powers be removed in the same way? If they're not being withheld by the god who granted them there's nothing that could prevent that. So what you're saying that in your settings there is no divine or arcane magic but something completely different? What is it?

 

[Bara]

So your clerics are just mages with slightly modified spell list, ahkay.

What was stopping them from being dominant totalitarian dictatorship forever?

Their magical powers depend on something else, not deities.

But that makes them wizards with a different name and spell list.

Honestly for all the talk the clreics are better because their power is regulated and comes from without not within falls apart flat when there are no dieties in the setting.

Like zero diffrence to mages then as mages are drwaing upon arcane forces from the universe and piriests are drawing upon divine. Both external from their own bodies.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Yeah, there are no deities as in conscious beings working towards some goal and granting the clergy their powers.

Their power depends on something else, not deities.

Their powers can be taken away. Both political and magical. Some priests who have adventured suspect this, but it's not open knowledge.

I mean if so there is no reason the head of the church or whatever wouldn't be a dictatorship like your problem is with Arcane Magic. Heck. it's even worse than arcane magic, which can be learned by anybody, that someone in the church structure (not higher deities, mind you) can "take away your magic"?

If so effectively then your church should be more powerful than any "mage o cracy" you described simply on the virtue that the power is given by insitution not learned independetly.

 

[Reinhardt]

Puny mortals! Witness the devastation I have wrought! Witness the terror I have summoned!

And that's exactly why mages should be castrated.

 

[Lacrymas]

I mean if so there is no reason the head of the church or whatever wouldn't be a dictatorship like your problem is with Arcane Magic. Heck. it's even worse than arcane magic, which can be learned by anybody, that someone in the church structure (not higher deities, mind you) can "take away your magic"?

If so effectively then your church should be more powerful than any "mage o cracy" you described simply on the virtue that the power is given by insitution not learned independetly.

The priests aren't that powerful, though, especially since even the most powerful of living Clerics and Druids only have access to the 5th circle. It is also not A church, there are 3, and they sometimes have conflicting political interests.

But that makes them wizards with a different name and spell list.

Their powers can be taken away. Both political and magical. Some priests who have adventured suspect this, but it's not open knowledge.

Why can't Wizard powers be removed in the same way? If they're not being withheld by the god who granted them there's nothing that could prevent that. So what you're saying that in your settings there is no divine or arcane magic but something completely different? What is it?

This is only speculation on my part, it's not a completed setting yet, I only have a single one-shot created for it. This is just in the back of my mind if it turns out the severely depowered priests have the same narrative problems as arcane spellcasters.

 

[Harthwain]

Then it's even worse. They used the nuclear weapons because they could for some other arcane reason.

You know the saying: "When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

 

[Desiderius]

The power comes from the One who called the Church into being, not the mere church itself.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

This is only speculation on my part, it's not a completed setting yet, I only have a single one-shot created for it. This is just in the back of my mind if it turns out the severely depowered priests have the same narrative problems as arcane spellcasters.

So what exactly is the difference between Clerics and Wizards when besides different dice pool and spell-list from the perspective of a setting? I'm honestly lost.

 

[Lacrymas]

This is only speculation on my part, it's not a completed setting yet, I only have a single one-shot created for it. This is just in the back of my mind if it turns out the severely depowered priests have the same narrative problems as arcane spellcasters.

So what exactly is the difference between Clerics and Wizards when besides different dice pool and spell-list from the perspective of a setting? I'm honestly lost.

Priests can't will whatever magical effects they want, they are always limited. Their spells also have a theme they must follow, either spiritual or natural, depending on whether it's a Cleric or a Druid. The "altered spell list" is actually a huge deal in this case. You can't bless people to death. If I were to limit wizards to the 6th spell circle, bind their magic to something that can be controlled by others, create an elaborate self-regulating social/political system, invent strict ideologies they must follow, and remove their ability to make up additional spells, then maybe I won't be a restless when it comes to arcane spellcasters. But I choose to just focus on divine spellcasters for this setting. I'm also thinking of removing any direct damage spells when I inevitably create my own RPG system, but I digress.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

The priests aren't that powerful, though, especially since even the most powerful of living Clerics and Druids only have access to the 5th circle. It is also not A church, there are 3, and they sometimes have conflicting political interests.

Okay, so you introduced a hard magical power cap of 6th circle with most people only being able to cast 5th circle. That's fine. Then what's the issue with Arcane Magic then? Setting-wise, what you can do is still limited by 6th circle level of magic, even then probably only the Elmnister of your setting is able to cast it. Well in both Divine and Arcane magic there is no clear what consitutes "this spell is xth circle", but in this case you have already introduced a hard power cap on what a spell can more or less do at its maximum. Even if you can research arcane magic, the power is still limited by this "the most powerful of you average mages/clerics/druids can only cast 5th level spell, only uber-powerful mortal can cast 6th level spells.

The fact that you cite that there is more than 1 church acting as a check and balance to each other also makes your "setting with arcane magic will devolve into arcane magic dictatorship" kinda non-sensical. History has proven that people have always vied for power. It's is the crux of our pre-modern history with the war and all. And with the fact that arcane-magic is learnable by everybody means that such divergence will happen. The mages will fight each otehr.

Centuries of history have also shown that when dictatorship emerges, there is no lack of people who will revolt, even internally from the ruling group. A study of Chinese history alone shows that, and I am pretty sure western history is no lacking in examples as well.

 

[Lacrymas]

Oh, there will be blood, don't worry about that. There are 3 churches in order for them to bicker. If one of them becomes too powerful, the other two can team up against it. They aren't the only political powers at play, they are just the only magical ones in the civilization from which most PCs are, and technically the most powerful due to controlling the healing source. There are also external enemies. It is a theocracy because this is what I wanted. I could've easily said the military controls the healing source and the churches are only advisors and tend to spiritual duties. This modularity is what I want because it creates a possibility for change in the status quo. It also creates a possibility for roleplaying and taking sides because every side has the potential to win. Even if toppling the churches will prove to be very difficult indeed. They derive their place not only through physical and magical power, but also through the cultural hegemony. Most people sincerely believe in their dogmas and love them as shepherds and tenders of the soul.

 

[Storyfag]

Oh, there will be blood, don't worry about that. There are 3 churches in order for them to bicker. If one of them becomes too powerful, the other two can team up against it. They aren't the only political powers at play, they are just the only magical ones in the civilization from which most PCs are, and technically the most powerful due to controlling the healing source. There are also external enemies. It is a theocracy because this is what I wanted. I could've easily said the military controls the healing source and the churches are only advisors and tend to spiritual duties. This modularity is what I want because it creates a possibility for change in the status quo. It also creates a possibility for roleplaying and taking sides because every side has the potential to win. Even if toppling the churches will prove to be very difficult indeed. They derive their place not only through physical and magical power, but also through the cultural hegemony. Most people sincerely believe in their dogmas and love them as shepherds and tenders of the soul.

But somehow the presence of arcane magic guilds would eliminate the possibility for change in the status quo.