1eyedking Long-winded dialogues suck

[ERYFKRAD]

AND ELVES

 

[DalekFlay]

Call me a storyfag, but I like all the dialog. I also prefer unvoiced, because you can have more dynamic responses. I can see why someone who mainly plays RPGs for loot and builds would hate it, but I am not that person. The "lore dumps" are interesting to me, and build the world through imagination, which I love.

That said I do dislike when a game has multiple long-winded conversations in a row. Like for example in Shadowrun Dragonfall or Mass Effect (voiced!) when you get with your team at the base and they all have updated companion dialog, and if you do it all at once it feels like it goes on forever. You don't have to do it all at once of course, but there is a sort of time limit before another important quest changes what they're on about. I try to split it up as best I can though.

That said too much story in other genres is a no-no. Doom Eternal has endless lore pages of text to read and it's like... do you know what genre you're in? WTF?

 

[Ismaul]

Call me a storyfag, but I like all the dialog. I also prefer unvoiced, because you can have more dynamic responses. I can see why someone who mainly plays RPGs for loot and builds would hate it, but I am not that person. The "lore dumps" are interesting to me, and build the world through imagination, which I love.

You're not a storyfag, you're a bad writer enabler.

Lore dumps are the worst as a storyfag. Compelled to read rather than skip, yet finding nothing but pointless words not tied to the gameplay and unfolding events. Lore dumps are basically the writer having some interesting background about a character and stopping there, telling you about it by dumping his coolstorybro.txt rather than making it playable, making it into something to discover and interact with as part of the gameplay.

 

[FritzedProcess]

Can't say I'm an expert on the topic, but the British already had encounters with rifles ~30 years prior.

The British used Baker rifles during the Napoleonic wars, although most of the troops were still equipped with muskets back then.

 

[FritzedProcess]

You're not a storyfag, you're a bad writer enabler.

Lore dumps are the worst as a storyfag. Compelled to read rather than skip, yet finding nothing but pointless words not tied to the gameplay and unfolding events. Lore dumps are basically the writer having some interesting background about a character and stopping there, telling you about it by dumping his coolstorybro.txt rather than making it playable, making it into something to discover and interact with as part of the gameplay.

And that is why Shadowrun Hong Kong is superior to Dragonfall: because the loredumps are actually relevant to getting the good ending. Also, some of the characters have backstories that aren't sob stories.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

: because the loredumps are

Only some of them

 

[Harthwain]

I agree that long-winded sucks almost all of the time.

In my opinion it's a good idea to put some limits to writing. Text is short and to the point when it's stripped of needless crap, which is good. It's also less likely to bore people or give you enough time to write something stupid.

And it doesn't mean it has to be primitive (just look at Legacy of Kain's dialogues. They had me looking for a dictionary more than once). It's also better to have text appear more often, but in smaller bites (which is probably why it's easier to swallow actual conversations than huge lore dumps, regardless if they happen during conversations or outside of them).

 

[JarlFrank]

Napoleonic Wars
rifles

No

Can't say I'm an expert on the topic, but the British already had encounters with rifles ~30 years prior.

Yes, rifles were used by light infantry troops, but that's like 1% of an army. The majority of soldiers fought with smoothbore muskets, and some armies even had their light infantry use a mix of smoothbores and rifles (like half of them get smoothbores, half get rifles).

Rifles aren't what you'd usually associate with the Napoleonic Wars. It's kinda like saying "Romans fought with bows and arrows" because they had a couple of auxiliary archer units, but 90% of soldiers never touched a bow.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Napoleonic Wars
rifles

No

Can't say I'm an expert on the topic, but the British already had encounters with rifles ~30 years prior.

Yes, rifles were used by light infantry troops, but that's like 1% of an army. The majority of soldiers fought with smoothbore muskets, and some armies even had their light infantry use a mix of smoothbores and rifles (like half of them get smoothbores, half get rifles).

Rifles aren't what you'd usually associate with the Napoleonic Wars. It's kinda like saying "Romans fought with bows and arrows" because they had a couple of auxiliary archer units, but 90% of soldiers never touched a bow.

Disagree, but I'm probably biased. IMO that's like saying there's no snipers on a battlefield because only 1% of the soldiers have a sniper rifle.

Spoiler

Here's a 1924 article published in the American Historical Review journal about riflemen in the US revolutionary war, pretty interesting read if anyone cares: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1838519

 

[DalekFlay]

You're not a storyfag, you're a bad writer enabler.

Lore dumps are the worst as a storyfag. Compelled to read rather than skip, yet finding nothing but pointless words not tied to the gameplay and unfolding events. Lore dumps are basically the writer having some interesting background about a character and stopping there, telling you about it by dumping his coolstorybro.txt rather than making it playable, making it into something to discover and interact with as part of the gameplay.

If a lore dump is poorly written, then it's just poorly written. That doesn't mean all lore dumps are. The thread is saying it's a bad mechanic, and I disagree. If you're going to throw 5 paragraphs of world-building at me that is interesting then I will enjoy it. If you throw 5 paragraphs of lore at me that suck, then I'll enjoy it much less. It's about execution, not the mechanic itself. Also 90% of the time it's optional and there's a "just tell me where to go" option. You guys are just too autistic to click it.

 

[Ismaul]

If you're going to throw 5 paragraphs of world-building at me that is interesting then I will enjoy it.

But why do that when the game could make you explore that worldbuilding and interact with it? If it's interesting as a wall of text it'll be more interesting to play. Show, don't tell. Same principle here.

 

[DalekFlay]

But why do that when the game could make you explore that worldbuilding and interact with it? If it's interesting as a wall of text it'll be more interesting to play. Show, don't tell. Same principle here.

Sometimes the interesting stuff are things like the pantheon of gods and how they came to be, or the political history of the free state of Berlin, or whatever else. That stuff is very hard to do with environmental storytelling or brief dialogs and notes. If the more expansive lore stories are executed well, as it is in many RPGs, then it's an enjoyable experience. If it is not executed well and is boring then you can skip the vast majority of it. I don't tend to enjoy in-world fiction books for example, so I mostly skip those. I played Mass Effect Andromeda for the pretty sci-fi visuals and sniper popamole, but I skipped 90% of the questions I could ask people because the writing and story were terrible. As long as these things are all optional IMO, everyone wins.

 

[Ismaul]

ometimes the interesting stuff are things like the pantheon of gods and how they came to be, or the political history of the free state of Berlin, or whatever else. That stuff is very hard to do with environmental storytelling or brief dialogs and notes. If the more expansive lore stories are executed well, as it is in many RPGs, then it's an enjoyable experience.

Sure, some things require text because they're hard to do in gameplay, but at the very least they should relate to what you're doing playing the game.

Don't fucking talk to me about gods if it's irrelevant to events unfolding and to upcoming choices.

 

[J1M]

I wonder if anyone has graphed the correlation between the rise of word count as a marketing feature, the decline in writing quality, and the non-male gender ratio of the writing team.

For some inexplicable reason, I have a hard time picturing soy males editing and critiquing the work of all genders with the same level of gusto.

PS: I think Amy Hennig's work on Legacy of Kain is some of the best the industry has to offer. I am casting aspersions at team dynamics, not women.

 

[DalekFlay]

Sure, some things require text because they're hard to do in gameplay, but at the very least they should relate to what you're doing playing the game.

Don't fucking talk to me about gods if it's irrelevant to events unfolding and to upcoming choices.

It's the ultimate role-play dude. If you're playing a character who doesn't give a shit about the gods because they don't relate to his quest, then don't read or ask about the gods. Now you ARE the character!

 

[Zombra]

If a lore dump is poorly written, then it's just poorly written. That doesn't mean all lore dumps are. The thread is saying it's a bad mechanic, and I disagree. If you're going to throw 5 paragraphs of world-building at me that is interesting then I will enjoy it. If you throw 5 paragraphs of lore at me that suck, then I'll enjoy it much less. It's about execution, not the mechanic itself. Also 90% of the time it's optional and there's a "just tell me where to go" option. You guys are just too autistic to click it.

Obviously I agree that good writing is better than bad, but in general good worldbuilding should emerge through play and direct experience, not dialogue (or "lore books"). Long-winded dialogue is a straight up bad mechanic compared to finding ways for the player to participate directly in the story.

Not to say nothing should be explained in any game. Exposition has its place but should be brief and to the point.

 

[JarlFrank]

It's about execution

Exactly.

That's why you shouldn't loredump in dialogue. The best way to do loredumps is with in-game books.

"Yo, can you give me a breakdown about Tarrania's history?"
NPC: "The standard work on our history is Proclius' Historia Tarrania. You can find a copy in the library. I can give you directions to the library if you want."

Stuff about gods can also be in in-game books, stories of mythology etc. But it can also be reflected in rituals, common phrases ("May Ladakia dry up your seed!" when Ladakia is the fertility goddess, "By Hortos' Spear!" when Hortos is the god of war, etc), calendars, day names, etc. Religion should be reflected in the everyday life of a society rather than merely being a list of gods and myths that have no relevance on what's actually happening in the game.

History can also speak through existing relations, at least the history of the last 200 years or so (further back usually has no significant impact on current year anymore, with some major notable events as exceptions - like Romans still remembering the day Rome got sacked by Gauls centuries later; your major empire could have a remembrance rite for a bad thing that happened 500 years ago, for example). NPCs giving 5 paragraph loredumps on the war between their country and a neighbor isn't necessary when you display the aftermath of that war by having people of those two different cultures distrust each other, show them displaying prejudices, have large contingents of guards patrol the border, etc etc. Show that there is tension between the two nations. Have some ruined villages lining the border - they got razed in the war. Etc.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I wonder if anyone has graphed the correlation between the rise of word count as a marketing feature, the decline in writing quality, and the non-male gender ratio of the writing team.

For some inexplicable reason, I have a hard time picturing soy males editing and critiquing the work of all genders with the same level of gusto.

PS: I think Amy Hennig's work on Legacy of Kain is some of the best the industry has to offer. I am casting aspersions at team dynamics, not women.

I'm not sure it's related, last century video games writers were nurtured by good to amazing fantasy/sci-fi novels because the genre wasn't that popular.

A huge part of the current writers grew-up on "pop-fantasy", a mix of retarded lore, romance novels and cheap fantasy/sci-fi because it's now extremely popular, even the worst novel including elves or using the steampunk keyword is a 100% hit ...

Also, and maybe a bit because of the previous points, many people wouldn't recognize a literature masterpiece even if it hit them in the face.
Most readers mix a story or characters they like with literature skills.

 

[JarlFrank]

People need to read more Clark Ashton Smith.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

People need to read more Clark Ashton Smith.

And Howard, and Vance, and the Eddas and what not.

 

[Farewell young Prince into the night]

People need to read more Clark Ashton Smith.

Any suggestion of where to begin?

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Exactly.

That's why you shouldn't loredump in dialogue. The best way to do loredumps is with in-game books.

I am playing devil's advocate here, but in-game books at best is completely optional and frankly missable content. Putting them in dialogue ensure context to be delivered while putting them on books don't.

Stuff about gods can also be in in-game books, stories of mythology etc. But it can also be reflected in rituals, common phrases ("May Ladakia dry up your seed!" when Ladakia is the fertility goddess, "By Hortos' Spear!" when Hortos is the god of war, etc), calendars, day names, etc. Religion should be reflected in the everyday life of a society rather than merely being a list of gods and myths that have no relevance on what's actually happening in the game.

History can also speak through existing relations, at least the history of the last 200 years or so (further back usually has no significant impact on current year anymore, with some major notable events as exceptions - like Romans still remembering the day Rome got sacked by Gauls centuries later; your major empire could have a remembrance rite for a bad thing that happened 500 years ago, for example). NPCs giving 5 paragraph loredumps on the war between their country and a neighbor isn't necessary when you display the aftermath of that war by having people of those two different cultures distrust each other, show them displaying prejudices, have large contingents of guards patrol the border, etc etc. Show that there is tension between the two nations. Have some ruined villages lining the border - they got razed in the war. Etc.

I agree with this. Of course, assuming once again that the writer is capable of executing that. Even then context might still be lost in a completely original setting. "Huh why there is tension here?" "Huh why are these people fighting, etc"

I actually like what Tyranny was trying to do. Instead of putting loredumps dialogue, it tried to limit them by having highlightable words that explain the context of some stuff. PfK also did this.

Honestly in my opinion, video games are more akin to books than movies. If you can't really do what JarlFrank suggested really well, putting opening narration (with cinematics etc as opening movie) for contexts that's important to the story is probably better than putting them on dialogue.

It takes maybe 2 - 3 minutes to do but it ensures the context of the story to be delivered to the player as a hook. If the game is going to be 30 hours long it won't matter if you spend mandatory 2 - 3 minutes on it. It is bad in movies because it breaks pacing and movies are supposed to run on very limited time compared to books or video games. This why moving from book writing to movie writing can often be disastrous if not done well.

 

[JarlFrank]

People need to read more Clark Ashton Smith.

Any suggestion of where to begin?

The Zothique short stories in their chronological order are a good starting point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zothique#Stories

Too bad the story "The Feet of Sidaiva" was only an idea and never turned into a real story

 

[octavius]

JarlFrank should be a games designer (again).

 

[JarlFrank]

History can also speak through existing relations, at least the history of the last 200 years or so (further back usually has no significant impact on current year anymore, with some major notable events as exceptions - like Romans still remembering the day Rome got sacked by Gauls centuries later; your major empire could have a remembrance rite for a bad thing that happened 500 years ago, for example). NPCs giving 5 paragraph loredumps on the war between their country and a neighbor isn't necessary when you display the aftermath of that war by having people of those two different cultures distrust each other, show them displaying prejudices, have large contingents of guards patrol the border, etc etc. Show that there is tension between the two nations. Have some ruined villages lining the border - they got razed in the war. Etc.

I agree with this. Of course, assuming once again that the writer is capable of executing that. [/QUOTE]

Not only the writer. Level designers, encounter designers, etc etc also have to play along with this. When writers work in a vacuum, you could get things like Dragon Age's "blood magic is banned" but then your companion who's a wizard of the order can learn blood magic skills anyway, lol.