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1eyedking Long-winded dialogues suck

Mozg

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
2,033
Using the graphics as a thumbnail/spatial map and then text for deeper description is fine. Like I enjoyed it in PS:T when you're talking to Dakkon or someone and the text goes into detail about the expressions on his face and so on. I don't think that's the wrong way to go about things. It's just a way to go about things. I don't think that's even fundamentally different from using some mocap graphics shit to actually have an actor doing Dakkon's facial expressions. And it's immensely cheaper, so you have have 100x as much writing-acting as mocap whatever.
 

DavidBVal

4 Dimension Games
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And it's immensely cheaper.
I agree on your post except on that part. Writing is teh hard. I doubt a good writer is cheap or easy to find, while good graphic artists are a dime a dozen nowadays.
 

Monkeyfinger

Cipher
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
Messages
779
The dialogue with Dak'kon was especially long by PS:T's standards.

It was centered around two of the main characters and it served a lot of purposes:
- To develop and change dak'kon's worldview and personality
- To reveal some things about his past and TNO's past
- To reveal some ugly truths about the gith's history
- To massage the player's ego by having TNO be smart enough to deduce the ugly truths just by reading the unbroken circle, without ever being shown any of the events

Lesson learned from that - have long winded dialogue and long winded descriptive text if whatever you're writing about is really important within the context of the game

Filler should be a mixture of two things.
Short, matter of fact descriptions and directions (even if they sound unnatural)
Pithy one-liners

I hate long winded minor NPCs.
 

grotsnik

Arcane
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
1,671
"That degg here for da'fights?"

Kruger nods. "Aye, we're here for the fights."

The stranger tilts the torch forward. "Ain't asking if you was, was asking if da'degg was. Is he here to fight'r'not?"

You nod this time. "It's been brought to fight, yes."

The stranger smiles. "Alright then. Right this way, gen-teel-men. Watch yer step. All manner of piss goes downhill."

In an instant, the torch is gone. You will have to follow the man's cackling laughter.

This whole scene is a really interesting example if you look at it as it might appear in a gaming context, and I think it illustrates how the dialogue box can be stifling when it comes to both atmosphere and vulnerability.

Atmosphere because it shuts down your screen and focuses on on a single NPC or element, rather than allowing you to take in your surroundings while you're reading. And in doing so, it creates a disconnect between what you're experiencing and what you're being told you're experiencing.

I think one of the smartest moves for this kind of descriptive writing has always been the loading text, pre-empting the visuals themselves - "You make your way down a little-used path and find yourself in a place both ancient and mystical. It is pristine - untouched by civilization, and there is something else... an eager palpitation you've felt before. There are spirits nearby. The forest is filled with them." It really makes you anticipate what you're about to experience, and it can lend a bit of wonder or dread to the blandest of area design.

And vulnerability, because the dialogue box is a safe space. Nobody's going to attack you until it closes; the game has taught you that, so it feels as if the game has come to a standstill while you read. Again, it isn't that writing is powerless here, but it needs to be considered as part of the overall area design. Stick in a few floats as the player makes their way down the darkening alleyway - "It looks like something bled to death under these steps." "A door slams as you pass by. You can hear bolts being drawn across." That'll make them feel far more like they're getting into deep shit the further down they go, because the writing has become part of their actual progression.

And finally, the really big issue: what's the story here?

The player has found (or bought?) a dog, and is investigating the possibility of winning money from entering it in fights. The dog is probably a real in-game creature, who's been loyally following the player and fighting alongside them up until now.

So at this point, the more sentimental player is going to be feeling bad about 'betraying' the dog by entering it, and potentially getting it killed. The less sentimental player is going to be weighing up the risks of losing a valuable asset in a gameplay scenario they can't control. It's a cool little choice, no matter how invested you are.

Descriptive writing can help to tell that story by:
- Playing up the lowlife character of the dogfighters themselves. Are they scummy enough to cheat you out of your money, or try to rob you? If you back out now, will you get out of this alleyway without a fight?
- Making the dog seem more vulnerable and under threat. (A float text off to one side, as a sobbing man cradles his dying hound, would certainly do that.)
- Equally, playing up the benefits of winning. Maybe the dogfighter has a fat purse of coins at his belt, or the event master is sitting behind bars counting coins?

That's all just complete common sense, I know - but if you always hammer down your broader aims and themes beforehand, that's how you're going to learn to avoid unnecessary description. Because you're explicitly putting your NPCs in service to the overall player experience, rather than letting them be random digressions so you can show off your amazing observational powers.
 

buzz

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
Please game, tell me more about Zombie worker nr 3463, and detailed descriptions of her skin, scars across the body and her vacant stare. I've only met other 10 zombies with similar descriptions and I want to read more flowery details of zombies, especially in the first 10 minutes of playing this game when it's most important to draw players in. Oh, the zombie doesn't say anything and you just gave me "useless" flavor text? Oh.

No Aradesh, I don't give a fuck what Darma said. Can you please fuck off while I go quest in the infinitely more interesting places?

ITT: Thick-fogged nostalgia glasses and people who love JRPG writing

butidontwanna.png


So concise, such Hemmingway.


If you can't handle the bantz, don't play cRPGs. Flavor text and flavor dialogue is always there. I prefer flavor text because I can read it at my own pace and ease to skim through or skip if it's info/lore I already know.
 

Naveen

Arcane
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Messages
1,115
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Is there a way to read/open PoE dialogue or text files, or perhaps there is a wikia with them somewhere?
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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I present a solution for this thread.

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8RVbas9.png




Don't forget


wDEo1Af.jpg
BKrk2qS.png


On the subject: one of the situations I hate most in a videogame conversation is me clicking one word and the character spilling a three sentences which I never expected and have no control over.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
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i read the first 10 or so i ran into, i gave up partly b/c every time i opened one up the game set my subwoofer rumbling so loud i thought the walls would crack

Although to be honest, not every piece of text in the game sucks. One or two of the backer stories were good and I thought that every single one of the NPCs was above average, at least if we consider the standards of the industry. They were all better written that NPCs from NWN2, so that is something. Unfortunately, the main quest is atrocious and most of the side quests are the typical garbage that most developers throw at us.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

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On the subject: one of the situations I hate most in a videogame conversation is me clicking one word and the character spilling a three sentences which I never expected and have no control over.

The developer’s assumption is that if you read that option you will be bored, because you are a fucking causaloid. Therefore, they try to encapsulate the whole meaning of a sentence in one word.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
Descriptive writing can help to tell that story by:
- Playing up the lowlife character of the dogfighters themselves. Are they scummy enough to cheat you out of your money, or try to rob you? If you back out now, will you get out of this alleyway without a fight?
- Making the dog seem more vulnerable and under threat. (A float text off to one side, as a sobbing man cradles his dying hound, would certainly do that.)
- Equally, playing up the benefits of winning. Maybe the dogfighter has a fat purse of coins at his belt, or the event master is sitting behind bars counting coins?

Just as there is a show, don't tell "rule" in writing - "rule" because it is capable of being broken, but only by writers who know what they're doing - so the same goes for games. The difference is that in video games, the best way to "show" is through the player interacting with the game world, while text description = "tell".

Using your examples:

"Playing up the lowlife character of the dogfighters themselves. Are they scummy enough to cheat you out of your money, or try to rob you? If you back out now, will you get out of this alleyway without a fight?"

The way to show this in a game is through dialogue/interaction. For example, the pit master forcing you to make a deposit before the fight, and you having the choice to refuse, and him telling you to "get the fuck out" unless you're willing to pay up front. This instantly makes the player worry about the establishment in a way that a description is never capable of doing.

"Making the dog seem more vulnerable and under threat. (A float text off to one side, as a sobbing man cradles his dying hound, would certainly do that.)"

Just make an actual sobbing man cradling his dying dog off to the side ... instead of describing it.

"Equally, playing up the benefits of winning. Maybe the dogfighter has a fat purse of coins at his belt, or the event master is sitting behind bars counting coins?"

Not useful to play up as the winnings are logically going to be explained to the player before the fight, so they're going to have an idea already of what they're looking to make; and unless the pit master being rich is important - eg there's a quest for it, else it helps develop a theme throughout the game - it's best to just avoid even describing it, because there's no value to the detail and filling your game with useless detail encourages people to skip it all.
 

Naveen

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
On the subject: one of the situations I hate most in a videogame conversation is me clicking one word and the character spilling a three sentences which I never expected and have no control over.

There is something worse yet. It's very difficult to make a funny game or a humorous riposte using that system unless you take the Bard's Tale's direction. In fact, it's very difficult to recreate a real, meaningful conversation. For example, this:

58.jpg


How do you translate that into a 4-button and one-word system? You simply can't. Every possible answer now is a black box so you don't really know what you are roleplaying, and they are grossly classified in (a)agreement, (b) not sure, (c) more info, (d) Do not want options. Those are like levers in some kind of human-sized Skinner Box, but instead of sugar they give you quests to win XP that make the ka-ching sound when you earn them.
 

naossano

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Marseilles, France
The developer’s assumption is that if you read that option you will be bored, because you are a fucking causaloid. Therefore, they try to encapsulate the whole meaning of a sentence in one word.
I guess Bethesda is trying to pay a tribute to George Orwell's 1984 in their own twisted way...
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2015
Messages
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DFW, Texas
Those are like levers in some kind of human-sized Skinner Box, but instead of sugar they give you quests to win XP that make the ka-ching sound when you earn them.

B.F. Skinner actually built an operant conditioning chamber for his daughter and tested his theories on her.

slide_287474_2244546_free.jpg
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
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Location
The end of every place
I agree on your post except on that part. Writing is teh hard. I doubt a good writer is cheap or easy to find, while good graphic artists are a dime a dozen nowadays.
Writing has been an ignored aspect of entertainment for so long that writers now come cheap. Supply and demand, and there's no demand. For mo-capping, you need not just a mo-capper, but an actor and specialized equipment. To hire a writer requires basically putting out an ad. Whether they're good or not is generally considered of tertiary importance, as opposed to whether or not they'll do what you say (and incorporate the car ad into the dialogue) and whether they're willing to write to whatever space needs filling, not to best needs. Even with that, though, writers come way cheaper than regular programmer staff.

Unless - that is - you want a NYT bestseller, which is in another tier of income altogether.
 
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Seattle, WA
Short and concise. Like real life. Get to the point. As to my perspective, it is poor quests that ruin narration, not poor dialogue. Dialogue can be simple, and meanwhile the world weaves its own story. 8)
 

buzz

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
4,234
Really, this has been talked before: fuck dialogue bullshit and lore writing.

Make conversations an actual interesting part of the gameplay.
Like this:
latest


Or this:
127575d1361657367-g_790screen008-jpg



:troll:no but really, I wish someone would finally do a proper implementation of this. Make conversations and intrigue an active and dynamic part of the gameplay, just like the combat and survival aspects. Leave lore bullshit for in-game books and journals.
 

sser

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
1,866,875
This whole scene is a really interesting example if you look at it as it might appear in a gaming context, and I think it illustrates how the dialogue box can be stifling when it comes to both atmosphere and vulnerability.

Atmosphere because it shuts down your screen and focuses on on a single NPC or element, rather than allowing you to take in your surroundings while you're reading. And in doing so, it creates a disconnect between what you're experiencing and what you're being told you're experiencing.

I think one of the smartest moves for this kind of descriptive writing has always been the loading text, pre-empting the visuals themselves - "You make your way down a little-used path and find yourself in a place both ancient and mystical. It is pristine - untouched by civilization, and there is something else... an eager palpitation you've felt before. There are spirits nearby. The forest is filled with them." It really makes you anticipate what you're about to experience, and it can lend a bit of wonder or dread to the blandest of area design.

And vulnerability, because the dialogue box is a safe space. Nobody's going to attack you until it closes; the game has taught you that, so it feels as if the game has come to a standstill while you read. Again, it isn't that writing is powerless here, but it needs to be considered as part of the overall area design. Stick in a few floats as the player makes their way down the darkening alleyway - "It looks like something bled to death under these steps." "A door slams as you pass by. You can hear bolts being drawn across." That'll make them feel far more like they're getting into deep shit the further down they go, because the writing has become part of their actual progression.

And finally, the really big issue: what's the story here?

The player has found (or bought?) a dog, and is investigating the possibility of winning money from entering it in fights. The dog is probably a real in-game creature, who's been loyally following the player and fighting alongside them up until now.

So at this point, the more sentimental player is going to be feeling bad about 'betraying' the dog by entering it, and potentially getting it killed. The less sentimental player is going to be weighing up the risks of losing a valuable asset in a gameplay scenario they can't control. It's a cool little choice, no matter how invested you are.

Descriptive writing can help to tell that story by:
- Playing up the lowlife character of the dogfighters themselves. Are they scummy enough to cheat you out of your money, or try to rob you? If you back out now, will you get out of this alleyway without a fight?
- Making the dog seem more vulnerable and under threat. (A float text off to one side, as a sobbing man cradles his dying hound, would certainly do that.)
- Equally, playing up the benefits of winning. Maybe the dogfighter has a fat purse of coins at his belt, or the event master is sitting behind bars counting coins?

That's all just complete common sense, I know - but if you always hammer down your broader aims and themes beforehand, that's how you're going to learn to avoid unnecessary description. Because you're explicitly putting your NPCs in service to the overall player experience, rather than letting them be random digressions so you can show off your amazing observational powers.

Addressed all this earlier. It's a text adventure of sorts, to be specific, but obviously not all of it. The point wasn't even to illustrate a story, but to illustrate a difference in approaches vis a vis functionality over flair or flair over functionality. One of the reasons I bring up FTL a lot in writing like this is because I've always felt like it did both very well.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
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Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
:troll:no but really, I wish someone would finally do a proper implementation of this. Make conversations and intrigue an active and dynamic part of the gameplay, just like the combat and survival aspects. Leave lore bullshit for in-game books and journals.
hqdefault.jpg
 

Doktor Best

Arcane
Joined
Feb 2, 2015
Messages
2,876
Yeah. Fundamental difference between video game and a novel, is that player eventually wants reading to be over. He's not there to read. He's there to play. He wants to read the text and get on with it.

When you're reading a novel, reading is all there is. If you want to push on the action, you keep reading. If you want to immerse yourself in the world, you keep reading. If you're one of people who enjoy technical aspects of writing, you will reread a passage or a page or two.

In a video game, none of that shit matters. If I want to experience the game world, I go and I fucking look at it. This is what shitty video game writers don't get. Even in a text-based game, text is ultimately secondary, its only there to serve the gameplay. Even PS:T, where reading IS the game, wouldn't work if entire thing was just one location, where you sit in a room and click on text.

This is why overly elaborate descriptions are so infuriating. Don't describe to me things that are on the screen. Worst case scenario, do it only to add detail. And fucking get to the point, keep those metaphors where they belong, like ingame lore books or text-based cut-scenes.

When i am playing text heavy rpgs, i am exactly playing that game for the reading. Descriptive texts, if done right, add alot to isometric rpgs because they transport a level of detail that would never be possible to see from that perspective and with the finite amount of detail one can put into a prerendered background/3d level architecture.

People need to stop assuming what other player want and accept the fact that the target audience for crpgs is a very varied one, thus there are also varied forms of rpgs focusing on different aspects of the genre.
 
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
795
I dislike both pointless walls of texts (like PoE's over-elaborate descriptions that added nothing to it) and the modern AAA fully voice-acted dialogue where people cram all their information into two or three lines, no matter what they're talking about or how complicated the issue is. The former certainly comes off as a poor PS:T imitation, down to the trying-too-hard choice of words that make a description of a wooden chair read like it was Lovecraft conjuring images of some eldritch horrors (except that it isn't any good), the latter is just soulless laziness. You need to have some sense of pacing and common sense in your writing, using the style that is most appropriate for the situation. I wasn't even once bored in PS:T since the dialogues were mostly about some really interesting and/or weird stuff that you wanted to know more about and which justified long-winded descriptions and conversations, but reading about the life story of Peasant #1425262 or a lore dump about The Ancient Hero That Was Relevant A Century Ago At Best is rarely all that exciting.
Well I hated PS:T. Too much dialogue. I never got interested in its flavor. Before I saw your post, I was readying to say the following: Since the dialogues bored me in PS:T then I don't think good writing is necessarily going to make lots of text fun to read. And yet I LOVE to read fiction. I tear through science fiction. I especially crave the digest magazines like Analog, Asimov or Amazing. It's like a hard drug or something at its best. For some reason I don't enjoy it nearly as much in graphical RPGs. Maybe it's because I desire interaction, foremost. Yet I've played text games and enjoyed them, so it might be subtle.

But I'll add this whole topic is good material. I was just research text games and one of the topics on my mind was how long winded room descriptions should be. It tends to be the case the best games have a very short description that allows you to use your imagination while supplying you enough information to absorb into it and progress.

The best writers use the least words to feed our imagination and let it do the rest.

EDIT: There're still many people who play MUDs and text games. I've done both. Some play the old ones on Abandonia or elsewhere. There's even an interaction fiction website located at http://www.ifiction.org/.

I also think gamer psychology matters. Not every gamer is the same. For games you typically have categories like explorer, socializer, achiever and killer. A person can score themselves on these ranges. Myself, for example, I score highest on explorer and secondmost on achiever. Ther're deeper models too which allow for a person to spill into other categories. So basically if you score high on achiever you want to progress. If you're high on explorer you enjoy understanding the systems and functions of the game--it's its own reward. A explorer-heavy game will feel too slow for an achiever-dominant gamer. A killer, by contrast, wants action and sensations and is not unfriendly to cheating. An acheiver will follow the rules, by comparison.

Can read more here (this deserves its own thread):
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6474/personality_and_play_styles_a_.php?print=1
 
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