Game News Lords of Xulima II Development Update: More Casual Or More Hardcore?

[Projas]

You may be an Ultimate Superior Being With Supreme Intellect, but not everyone is on the same level.

Nah mate, I'm not. I'm just able to read.

It wasn't until a bit later I realized that if the game tells you something, it's likely important and directly impacts the game itself.

See, that's the problem right there. That should be common sense. I think the idea that you shouldn't have to listen to what the game tells you is pretty ridiculous. You could simplify the game ad absurdum to the point where the entire game is just you clicking the "next" button. So people who choose to don't have to read anything, don't have to think anything, don't have to do anything. That would be pretty stupid, wouldn't it? That's why I say there's a line that should be drawn somewhere. Those "CRPG vets" you talk about are clear proof that games that cater to idiots actually turn people into idiots.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

No, it just shows that modern RPG design generally means you don't have to pay much attention to the game. Not everyone thinks RPGs are srs bzns as we do.

What I mean in my specific example is that much of RPG text in modern games is flavor text. I.e., "Stay out of that forest, there be killer goblins afoot!" Then you go into the forest and it's level-scaled to you and the goblins are easy. Much different than a design like Gothic. "Stay out of that forest if you wish to live!" Enter the forest, die in 2 shots immediately.

While we could debate the merits or drawbacks of these types of world designs, the bottom line is that the majority of gamers today don't like the Gothic-style design. Whether that's because it's too foreign to them, they never experienced it to really know if they liked it or not or they just want to shut their brain off and just run around in a game. So I say, let them! Their money buys the game just as ours does, and more money for the developers means they can build better games. And if they include options in the games, the casuals can buy them, run around mindlessly and follow quest markers while we enjoy the hardcore options in the game.

Also a reason why I think tutorials and philosophy-related text should be more prevalent in the game. If a casual stumbles upon Xulima and thinks, "Why the hell would I want to only save in town? That's stupid!", there would be some way in the game to explain to them the merits of such a system. Whether it's a tutorial that isn't dry as Pernitia Desert, or some other incentive to explore such options, explanations of the design of these elements in-game could also help.

 

[Projas]

No, it just shows that modern RPG design generally means you don't have to pay much attention to the game. Not everyone thinks RPGs are srs bzns as we do.

That's why modern RPG design is so retarded. The whole idea of selling your game on not having to pay attention to it. Not having to play it. Why even play it if you don't want to pay attention?

While we could debate the merits or drawbacks of these types of world designs, the bottom line is that the majority of gamers today don't like the Gothic-style design.

Because they were never exposed to it. And they never will be if the games keep spoonfeeding everything to them. Gothic was the shit when I was younger. I know plenty of people who never had much interest in games who loved it. No one asked them if they want quest compass or not, it was sink or swim. And it was great. I don't know anyone who would hate the game for being too hard or lacking a quest compass. Thing is, a lot of people don't know they want to be challenged until they are actually challenged. It's just laziness. And they will ultimately have better time when they shed this mindset and play by the rules of the game instead of trying to ignore them. You would be doing these people a disservice by letting them dumb down the game. Look at Dark Souls. That's a game regarded as hardcore among mainstream gamers. Do you think the game would as successful if it included options to decrease the difficulty or if it gave you a quest compass? I don't think so, because people don't really get more enjoyment from the game when they have these options, they just think they do.

And where would you draw the line of dumbing down the game? Would you be alright with the game literally playing itself with no input from the player while you just watch?

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Actually, yes. Since I personally will be playing the game on the hardest difficulty with any extra a la carte difficulty options enabled, I'm fine with someone else playing Story Mode or God Mode. If a player falls in love with the game they may want to explore the harder options more in subsequent playthroughs.

If you don't try to ease them in then you just cut them off and they will hate that style of RPG and never give it a chance. I'm in favor of bringing more people in where possible. As long as my options to play a Hardcore or Ironman mode are not affected, then more power to them. Brings in new fans, new funds for future games and so on.

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[Valky]

Casuals don't deserve video games. They should stick to sports or watching tv.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Hehe.

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[l3loodAngel]

To go further, why do you think Skyrim went completely in favor of quest markers design compared to Morrowind? I could say the same thing about Morrowind - "Learn to read the journal and follow directions!" But guess what? Not a lot of people liked doing that. So what did Bethesda do? They completely changed the design. Made it much more casual and easier to get into. But here's why what I'm saying is important. Had they developed it with my design ideas, we would have a journal that doesn't NEED quest markers, and also an option FOR quest markers for those who want it. That is, the game would be written to be able to be played without markers, with a quest marker option toggle. Instead, we get a journal that is literally unplayable without quest markers. Do you see what I'm saying yet?

Another example. Someone I know is a big RPG fan. He's played more Morrowind than anyone on this board, I guarantee that. He knows it inside and out. Recently I thought, "Hey, let me buy him The Quest. He should like it as it's sort of a turn-based Morrowind." He played it a bit and doesn't like it. Why? He can't figure out where to go too well. He's not a big reader in RPGs, even in Morrowind, so when a quest journal relies entirely on that he may lose interest. So, rather than playing The Quest, which is a fine RPG, he doesn't play it at all. Instead of spreading word of mouth about how much he enjoys the game and getting others to try it, it goes unplayed. The developers have no intention of adding quest markers as an option. Thus they may get a sale from him and then it's a dead end. He won't buy the expansions and he's not interested in future games from them. This is just a simple example but it's clear to see why options like this would help the business model for many indie RPG developers.

Fuck you. Fuck you in the ass and then straigth into your retarded mouth. Your kind is responsible for all of this decline "inovashun" and that there is nothing to play from big developers. Go to fucking watch.

Joe The Plumber aka Joe The Developer: Let's add this "feature" (bread crumb trail), let's dumb things down just a little bit here, let's add quest compass, now the game need this awesome feature called "full retardo level scaling", now let's reduce difficulty, add unnecessary visual effects, let's reduce number of text (people don't like to read), NOW let's remove or make attributes irrelevant, let's make a game where skills don't matter and voilà Oblivion mini game, now let's just improve gfx and increase advertising budget instead of making proper character and combat systems and voilà ici: DA:O 1-2, Obivion, Mass Effect.

And Now Bio and Beth have enough finances to finance those harcore gems with whom they'll soon flood us. We now need to make time in our schedules to play them, because the hardcore goodies are coming and will flow like a waterfall. Maybe tommorow, manjana, any day now.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Actually, if you opened your ears (or eyes in this case) and shut your mouth (or turn off your keyboard) you'd maybe have a chance to start to understand what I am saying.

I'll try one more time for anyone who truly doesn't get it.

Beth made Skyrim more casual in some ways to appeal to a larger audience. That is true. The problem with that was that the old-school options were removed entirely to do so. Had Beth built Skyrim in the way I am suggesting, the game would be playable without quest markers and a compass. The way they currently built it, it is not.

Let me use The Quest example one more time. Again, if they added very simple map markers to the game and a magical compass as OPTIONS, my friend would still be playing, and likely loving, the game. And guess what? Since the core game is made to play without markers and a compass, I could simply not enable those options for my playthrough and also love the game in all its old-school glory. It's literally a win-win. My friend buys more of their games, their expansions, spreads the word more about the game, writes positive reviews and attributes for many more sales. I do the same thing, without ever touching a quest marker or magical compass.

But without adding such an option, my friend's sale is a dead end. He won't spread the word of the game, he won't play it and buy future games and he's essentially done with the series. And for what? It could be easily avoided with simple options in the in-game menu.

So, you either stick with the very niche indie developers who create old-school RPGs (which I adore), but once you get to a point where copies need to be sold you essentially have 2 options. Either developers continue to casualize games to sell copies, or they make the games customizable and modular. In option 1, we all have to suffer with the casualization in the game because we don't have a choice. The core game is built on it. In option 2, we have a choice, since anyone can set the options for the game they want. The core game is not built on casualization but the options exist to make it so.

Again, I don't see how this is controversial. If anything, the Codex should be all for this if they truly want more challenging and complex RPGs to be made.

 

[Valky]

Better dead than a sellout.

 

[Celerity]

Lol. I didn't quit because I got rekt by Hastrana or Khornil, if that's what you're implying. Silly guy. I get bored after 100 hours with the same RPG and move on to something else generally. I will return to Hastrana in the future, and I have plenty more Xulima videos to upload, that go way past Khornil.

You haven't spent 100 hours on any game, and if you did Gothic isn't that long. 100 hours for the entire game, not the first 20%. That means a lot of time spent derping.

Well to be fair I can see where Fluent is coming from, but I think it's a fools errand to try and appeal to casualfags. Waste of time. They either get on board or they stick with Skyrim. Look at Grimrock: you can make a game pretty and the casualfags will pick it up but no amount of streamlining and casual modes compensated for the fact that in action it wasn't a game that appealed to them and this is a realtime blobber, not even TB. The fact that the second game despite being a far superior experience, only sold 1/3rd of the first shows that there just isn't the inherent mass appeal of these games no matter what concessions are made to the casual audience.

Xulima has what? 50k sales on steam and from all sources, doubt it's anywhere close to 100k. How did making an 'easy mode' help here? A couple of thousand extra copies that only result in bad experiences and almost guarantee no repeat sales? The Xulima guys would have done better to put the game in a Humble Bundle and that would not only guarantee more exposure and income, but I'd wager they'd end up getting more converts to TB blobbers(even if just 5% on the 200k+ that buy the bundle) that would then pick up a Xulima 2, than any number of bullshit streamlining and handholding aids in the second game.

It was in a Humble Bundle. More than once. 2 problems with this:

1: Humble Bundle is normally a peddler of hipster trash, their audience understands this. Real games, like Xulima are a hard sell here.
2: Most people don't remember what games they got in a Humble Bundle. A lot of the people I know with the game got it from there and never actually installed it, even after months or years.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Hey, aimlessly wandering is an integral part of RPGs. Probably explains how I spent 350 hours in a single Skyrim playthrough.

 

[Celerity]

In news more entertaining than fluent 's casual faggotry, it seems that Cleveland Mark Blakemore has made a real game before Rekt Hook did.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/grimoire-heralds-of-the-winged-exemplar#/updates

 

[commie]

It was in a Humble Bundle. More than once. 2 problems with this:

1: Humble Bundle is normally a peddler of hipster trash, their audience understands this. Real games, like Xulima are a hard sell here.
2: Most people don't remember what games they got in a Humble Bundle. A lot of the people I know with the game got it from there and never actually installed it, even after months or years.

That's odd. Must have been the times I missed the bundles as I've been checking them and other bundle sites since 2012....how ironic that I missed seeing it both times. Ended up getting it from GoG.

But yeah, I know the 'non-install' trap. A month or two ago I was going through the collection and saw some trashy games that I forgot about. Though 4 color retro platform shovelware doesn't exactly compare with Xulima, so on the other hand I can't empathise with these people not installing the good game.

Oh and I agree that Fluent is being disingenious. Gothic on my first play, blind took about 28 hours..learning controls, exploring, getting rekd etc. Even though it was 'hard', there is a comfortable progression as well. Certainly it's no trial and error Dark Souls, so no true 'hit the wall and give up cause you are a faggot that can't get good'. Any bastard that cannot overcome Gothic without wasd+mouse click or a quest compass is a scum and not worthy of any concessions.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

He was talking about Elminage Gothic. :D Gothic took me 38 hours or so. Great game but a bit short.

EG is hundreds of hours long. Go ask aweigh.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

And while I'm not holding my breath on Grimoire actually being released, if/when it is, it would be very, very interesting, indeed. On paper it seems great.

 

[Valky]

Actually, if you opened your ears (or eyes in this case) and shut your mouth (or turn off your keyboard) you'd maybe have a chance to start to understand what I am saying.

I'll try one more time for anyone who truly doesn't get it.

Beth made Skyrim more casual in some ways to appeal to a larger audience. That is true. The problem with that was that the old-school options were removed entirely to do so. Had Beth built Skyrim in the way I am suggesting, the game would be playable without quest markers and a compass. The way they currently built it, it is not.

Let me use The Quest example one more time. Again, if they added very simple map markers to the game and a magical compass as OPTIONS, my friend would still be playing, and likely loving, the game. And guess what? Since the core game is made to play without markers and a compass, I could simply not enable those options for my playthrough and also love the game in all its old-school glory. It's literally a win-win. My friend buys more of their games, their expansions, spreads the word more about the game, writes positive reviews and attributes for many more sales. I do the same thing, without ever touching a quest marker or magical compass.

But without adding such an option, my friend's sale is a dead end. He won't spread the word of the game, he won't play it and buy future games and he's essentially done with the series. And for what? It could be easily avoided with simple options in the in-game menu.

So, you either stick with the very niche indie developers who create old-school RPGs (which I adore), but once you get to a point where copies need to be sold you essentially have 2 options. Either developers continue to casualize games to sell copies, or they make the games customizable and modular. In option 1, we all have to suffer with the casualization in the game because we don't have a choice. The core game is built on it. In option 2, we have a choice, since anyone can set the options for the game they want. The core game is not built on casualization but the options exist to make it so.

Again, I don't see how this is controversial. If anything, the Codex should be all for this if they truly want more challenging and complex RPGs to be made.

Quest markers and compass being gone don't fix copypasted dungeons/assets all over the game and dogshit horrid combat.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

But hardcore options to make combat more difficult, items and resources more scarce and a limited saving option could do wonders.

 

[l3loodAngel]

But hardcore options to make combat more difficult, items and resources more scarce and a limited saving option could do wonders.

If you are a retard. For me lack of saving in Oblivion doesn't add much or any value...

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Not just limited saving. You have to combine limited saving with tight resource management, a more limited carry weight, tough combat and a more limited fast travel system to get the best effect. It greatly changes the experience. Requiem, an overhaul mod for Skyrim, did some of this to great affect.

 

[Valky]

But hardcore options to make combat more difficult, items and resources more scarce and a limited saving option could do wonders.

But higher difficulty on a busted system don't fix the system. At that point all they do is aggravate it. With the lack of complexity in Skyrim's combat, the options for making it more difficult without changing the combat at its core are severely limited to options like HP bloat, which only make the game more tedious, not difficult. Frosting doesn't improve the flavor of shit.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I suggest you try the Requiem overhaul for Skyrim, then. Non-level scaled encounters, enemies that can kill you in two hits and the gear you are actively using is of utmost importance.

When you make the systems more challenging, more restrictive and more impacting, the experience is greatly changed. Now all of a sudden raising your shield to block a single attack is much more important. A power attack can mean victory or defeat, and wearing a piece of armor could be the difference between surviving and not. Potions are rarer and their usage is restricted. Same with magic and the other systems in the game. It makes it sort of like the Gothic-style of RPG, although Requiem is a bit more hardcore than that, IMO.

The point is, the end results of the combat system in a game like Skyrim are much more than just swinging a sword. There are the tools in Skyrim to have a fine combat system. It's just the point of tweakiing the numbers to make everything much more interesting and impacting. That really goes for all the systems in Skyrim, whether it's alchemy or other resources to manage and so on.

 

[Valky]

I suggest you try the Requiem overhaul for Skyrim, then. Non-level scaled encounters, enemies that can kill you in two hits and the gear you are actively using is of utmost importance.

When you make the systems more challenging, more restrictive and more impacting, the experience is greatly changed. Now all of a sudden raising your shield to block a single attack is much more important. A power attack can mean victory or defeat, and wearing a piece of armor could be the difference between surviving and not. Potions are rarer and their usage is restricted. Same with magic and the other systems in the game. It makes it sort of like the Gothic-style of RPG, although Requiem is a bit more hardcore than that, IMO.

The point is, the end results of the combat system in a game like Skyrim are much more than just swinging a sword. There are the tools in Skyrim to have a fine combat system. It's just the point of tweakiing the numbers to make everything much more interesting and impacting. That really goes for all the systems in Skyrim, whether it's alchemy or other resources to manage and so on.

I already used the uninstall.exe mod after coming to terms with how severe my buyers remorse was for Skyrim, no amount of mods fixes it.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Well, IMO, that's a terrible mod. Makes the game completely unplayable. :D

 

[l3loodAngel]

Actually, if you opened your ears (or eyes in this case) and shut your mouth (or turn off your keyboard) you'd maybe have a chance to start to understand what I am saying.

I'll try one more time for anyone who truly doesn't get it.

Beth made Skyrim more casual in some ways to appeal to a larger audience. That is true. The problem with that was that the old-school options were removed entirely to do so. Had Beth built Skyrim in the way I am suggesting, the game would be playable without quest markers and a compass. The way they currently built it, it is not.

Let me use The Quest example one more time. Again, if they added very simple map markers to the game and a magical compass as OPTIONS, my friend would still be playing, and likely loving, the game. And guess what? Since the core game is made to play without markers and a compass, I could simply not enable those options for my playthrough and also love the game in all its old-school glory. It's literally a win-win. My friend buys more of their games, their expansions, spreads the word more about the game, writes positive reviews and attributes for many more sales. I do the same thing, without ever touching a quest marker or magical compass.

But without adding such an option, my friend's sale is a dead end. He won't spread the word of the game, he won't play it and buy future games and he's essentially done with the series. And for what? It could be easily avoided with simple options in the in-game menu.

So, you either stick with the very niche indie developers who create old-school RPGs (which I adore), but once you get to a point where copies need to be sold you essentially have 2 options. Either developers continue to casualize games to sell copies, or they make the games customizable and modular. In option 1, we all have to suffer with the casualization in the game because we don't have a choice. The core game is built on it. In option 2, we have a choice, since anyone can set the options for the game they want. The core game is not built on casualization but the options exist to make it so.

Again, I don't see how this is controversial. If anything, the Codex should be all for this if they truly want more challenging and complex RPGs to be made.

OK let me state the facts:
1. Beth made Skyrym/Oblivion more casual by removing old school options.
2. You assume that the sales will cover additional costs, which is highly unlikely AND you have no proof that it's the case.
3. The thing here is quest markers or descriptors cost money, but there are even more costly things that affect the development that like sliders that effect AI, different set of stats and other abilities. Which makes balancing it like 2, 3 or more games. Which increases both development costs/upkeep costs (patching) exponentially for no real benefit. Until you produce some sort of proof that real sales will grow (nobody gives a fuck about your anecdotes involving your friend) or show that these additions are not costly to make (different sliders, different abilities turned on/off, balancing for example not only 4 modes: easy, normal, hard, brutal. BUT balancing these 4 modes in cluding toggled important abilties makes balancing modes 4 X important toggled abilities. So if for exmple there are five abilities that can be toggle on/off that means that the developer must balance: 4 x 5 = 20 MODES. AND the developer must take that into account while making patches. He also must look into those 20 modes.)
4. Nobody except you gives a fuck about your friend. I am sorry.
5. Some games have casual appeal and some don't. Blobber won't have such appeal as an NBA/racing/FPS no matter how many sliders dev adds.

Until you produce some facts about the costs or increased sales (nobody gives a fuck about your friend except you. Maybe you should call him right now and tell him that you miss him) I am out.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Will respond more when I'm at my PC tomorrow. But if you look into some of these things I mentioned they are already being done and have been done in older games. Look up a few options you can change in the Eschalon games. They let you turn item degradation on or off, as well as the food and water mechanics. Pillars of Eternity has Story Mode AND Path of the Damned, as well as options like seeing the area of effect of a spell or not. Dragon Age: Origins has friendly fire as an option. And on and on.

2K also implemented sliders when they were an unknown company selling their game for $20 in an attempt to lure people into trying it. They were far from the mega conglomerate they are today. I'd say it worked out well for them to put it mildly. They also shipped as a hardcore "simulation" style game, not casualizing a bit until several years later. Even at that they still offer plenty of hardcore options and settings as well as great modularity and customization in general. So now they literally cater to casuals and hardcore at the same time. I could write a thesis on it but why? Maybe if a developer wants to hire me, sure. Message me then. Otherwise go play the game yourself and see. I was there since 2003, I know all about it. Go look at their player ratings system, or their control scheme. Lol, the controls alone are enough to blow anyone's mind. Casual it is not.

My friend was a simple example. You can find plenty more on the Steam forums who will echo the same sentiment, or just quietly not buy any more games from a developer, etc..

Grimrock did pretty well for a blobber, I'd say. Any game can be casual or hardcore, and any one can add options to customize the experience. You may not sell Skyrim numbers, but you'll sell more than you would have otherwise. Common sense.

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