Game News Lords of Xulima II Development Update: More Casual Or More Hardcore?

[Grauken]

Producers who allow users to fine tune their game so that it fits any mold from pure story-mode fag to casual to hard, cannot be hardcore by definition. If you can overcome gameplay challenges just by modifying how the game plays, its not. Also the retardo-casual audience is usually bigger, so any company that goes down that part will sooner or later finetune all of their games to satisfy those casualtards, with the harder difficulty as an afterthought.

Do you know what the word integrity means?

Companies that don't force a difficulty that actually is one in any meaning of the word (and not just games playing themselves), fearing that they will lose money due to casualtards, don't have any. They will end up producing shitty games, end up being bought by EA and then killed. This happens to companies with integrity as well, but at least they can point back to actually having produced something of worth.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Grimrock did pretty well for a blobber, I'd say. Any game can be casual or hardcore, and any one can add options to customize the experience. You may not sell Skyrim numbers, but you'll sell more than you would have otherwise. Common sense.

You are a developer aren't you?

 

[Celerity]

It was in a Humble Bundle. More than once. 2 problems with this:

1: Humble Bundle is normally a peddler of hipster trash, their audience understands this. Real games, like Xulima are a hard sell here.
2: Most people don't remember what games they got in a Humble Bundle. A lot of the people I know with the game got it from there and never actually installed it, even after months or years.

That's odd. Must have been the times I missed the bundles as I've been checking them and other bundle sites since 2012....how ironic that I missed seeing it both times. Ended up getting it from GoG.

But yeah, I know the 'non-install' trap. A month or two ago I was going through the collection and saw some trashy games that I forgot about. Though 4 color retro platform shovelware doesn't exactly compare with Xulima, so on the other hand I can't empathise with these people not installing the good game.

Oh and I agree that Fluent is being disingenious. Gothic on my first play, blind took about 28 hours..learning controls, exploring, getting rekd etc. Even though it was 'hard', there is a comfortable progression as well. Certainly it's no trial and error Dark Souls, so no true 'hit the wall and give up cause you are a faggot that can't get good'. Any bastard that cannot overcome Gothic without wasd+mouse click or a quest compass is a scum and not worthy of any concessions.

The thing about those particular bundles is it was a bunch of hipster trash and then Xulima, and the cost of that bundle was around the normal Xulima sale price so not really a good deal. Even so, a lot of the people I know with it either didn't install or they tried like 3 hours on casual then thought the game sucked when in reality it just sucks if you remove the tactical element of combat. Which is what our resident harbringer of decline is derailing this thread by autisticly screeching about.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Producers who allow users to fine tune their game so that it fits any mold from pure story-mode fag to casual to hard, cannot be hardcore by definition. If you can overcome gameplay challenges just by modifying how the game plays, its not. Also the retardo-casual audience is usually bigger, so any company that goes down that part will sooner or later finetune all of their games to satisfy those casualtards, with the harder difficulty as an afterthought.

Do you know what the word integrity means?

Companies that don't force a difficulty that actually is one in any meaning of the word (and not just games playing themselves), fearing that they will lose money due to casualtards, don't have any. They will end up producing shitty games, end up being bought by EA and then killed. This happens to companies with integrity as well, but at least they can point back to actually having produced something of worth.

I don't know why I am still responding to posts like this. I guess I am a glutton for punishment. It's all love, though.

You're just missing my point like pretty much everyone else, or just refusing to accept it, or just not reading my posts well. If a game like Xulima offers a Brutal difficulty above Hardcore, great! However, if there are options to disable things like Food, ease the inventory carrying weight and add quest markers, that's great, too. Since they are options I can play my Brutal playthrough without them.

Not everyone wants the hardcore options in any game. Believe it or not, casuals play Xulima, too. Or tried to. A lot of gamers just want a carefree romp through the world. They want to feel badass, kill things easily, collect phat loot and just get the story and dialogue in the game. Now there is no doubt that Xulima is first and foremost a Gameplay RPG as I call it. That is, it has a heavier focus on RPG elements like character development, exploration and tactical combat. But there is also no doubt that some people wanted to just run around the world killing stuff and advancing what was there of the story. Besides, the story and lore will be a heavier element in the sequel according to the devs, which is a good move. They already are implementing a bit of what I'm saying, that is, the game will have a more casual, easier to achieve ending (or multiple endings, not sure) that can be attained at 30-50 hours. However, the hardcore players will get to play the game for the hardcore ending, that will take over 100 hours to achieve. So they are already doing clever things to cater to both groups, and they will see a great benefit from it.

So you can see how they offered a big option there to help cater to both groups. Many people complained the game was too long. I am not one of them. So, rather than shorten the game for everyone, they added an earlier ending for those who want it. I would hope they do the same with features like Food, too. Rather than remove it because many people complained, give an option to turn it off completely or make it much less impacting in general. The core game and highest difficulty would still be hardcore and punishing for those who want that, too.

In the meantime the developers can work on trying to convince the fans of the Easy Mode in their games to try the harder options. That may never work and certainly won't work for a large majority of the players, but I'm sure there would be a few curious individuals converted to Challenge Gaming as Celerity calls it. That is just a side benefit, though, not the reason for doing it (although it does not hurt to try and explain your design philosophy more as well as ease people into it in the game. They already tried but in a very simple and undeveloped way. I feel they need to do more in that regard.) I mean, Xulima is unlike many RPGs released today. It's more akin to Gothic or Wizardry or something. So explaining why the world is not fully "open" and is gated with encounter difficulty, or why Food is in the game and the philosophy behind it can only serve to educate and at least try to make gamers understand the theories behind their design. Which is really good for all RPG gaming and gamers, IMO.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

 

[Grauken]

I totally get your point, you're just wrong.

Point in case. Dark Souls with easy mode would have never been the same success. Sometimes you have to force people to learn play on hard or to give up. Failure of some players is not just an option, is a necessity for this kind of game to succeed.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I totally get your point, you're just wrong.

Point in case. Dark Souls with easy mode would have never been the same success. Sometimes you have to force people to learn play on hard or to give up. Failure of some players is not just an option, is a necessity for this kind of game to succeed.

I'm sure you could find many people who say the Dark Souls series casualized a lot after Demon's Souls. That is also a very unique situation. There were literally no games like it before it came along. It interested people and gained hype because of how much you died. A very specific and uniquely-styled game that hit at the perfect place and perfect time.

And that still doesn't invalidate my point, it actually strengthens it. It is very easy to imagine more people playing Dark Souls if there were casual options to make the game easier. Even though it was a huge success, I guarantee that a sizable amount of RPG gamers didn't play or it won't play it because they heard about the intense difficulty level. I also would guarantee that there are many people who would just want to explore the unique world that Dark Souls presents but are also turned away by the challenge level. I've personally seen that a lot in discussions about that series.

An Easy Mode or a Not So Dark Mode would do nothing but allow more people to play and enjoy the game.

 

[Grauken]

You're hopeless

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Mmk.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

You don't think that those who find Dark Souls too intimidating or challenging to play wouldn't like the game if it had easier settings and conditions? Are there gamers out there who want to explore the beautiful and dark Dark Souls world but are driven away by the difficulty? Hmm...

 

[Grauken]

Yes, absolutely. And that's a good thing.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Right. Because money is bad. Plus we need a starting point so we can be mad at the developers later and have an epic backlash against them when Dark Souls 5 is inevitably a casualized game made to appeal to more people.

 

[Doktor Best]

Have you even played Dark Souls fluent?

The whole game mechanics system is built around its unforgiving nature. You cant have a game that wants to be consistent with itself 100% and then take away the foundation premise of its design purpose. Dark Souls could get an easy mode, sure, but then every person who played this easy mode would have a inferior game experience with the game. It wouldnt have caught as much attention by the players who went out on the internet and praised it as the harsh unforgiving mount everest of actionrpgs, daring deticated player to climb it in order to wear the badge, and it would almost assuredly not have gotten the success it has now if its gamedesigners would have been as apologetic as you are.

And Dark Souls is not easier than Demon's Souls. Its just a pretty similar game and since the Souls games are games about knowledge and a certain playstyle rather than twitch reactions, people who already beat Demon's Souls had an easier time with the second game simply because they were already experienced with it.

There are many who played Dark Souls before Demon's Souls and made the exact claim the other way around.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

#1 - Someone who doesn't want a punishing game does not find an easier experience to be an inferior one.

#2 - Games such as 2K sports offer the same things and are extremely successful.

#3 - Read #1 again.

 

[Doktor Best]

So you didnt play the game. Alright. It doesnt make much sense for me to talk to somebody who has no clue about the topic yet is so full of himself that he doesnt even respond to arguments i make, or doesnt understand them.

#2 - Games such as 2K sports offer the same things and are extremely successful.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Unfortunately I can't play every RPG ever made yet. I am working through a great NWN module right now that is tough as nails. I'm also playing a bit of Ember which is a CRPG-lite in some ways, but Hard difficulty at least adds a bit of a challenge to the encounters. Also still rolling with Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics for the PSP (surprising ToEE-style tactical RPG with a deep D&D 3.5 implementation) and Lords of Xulima - Hardcore Ironman "blind" run. You can find the latter 2 Let's Plays on my YouTube channel and the NWN module to come.

However, I understand what you're saying. I preciasely understand it. You think that giving an option to alter the experience to make it easier for someone who wants that would confer a lesser experience to the player in question, thus leading to a less impact in the word of mouth in the gaming community. But what I'm saying is that you have no way to say that with certainty. I have encountered people on the interwebz who would play Dark Souls but are turned off by the high level of challenge in the game. To put it in simpler terms, some players want to play Dark Souls just to run around and kill things, explore the world and enjoy the scenery. While you and I may think that would be an inferior experience for us, you can't project that onto someone else. If someone wants to play Pillars of Eternity in Story Mode and not bother with combat, that's their perogative. Obsidian has easily granted them that option if they choose, and it does not affect our playthroughs of the game, even if we consider that a much inferior option that would ruin our own enjoyment of the game.

Jeff Vogel mentioned something in a past blog about making sure your own enjoyment of a game does not negatively impact others' enjoyment of the same game. That is, developers should get away from forcing anything on the gamer that can't be toggled or made easier or yes, even more difficult. All you are doing in that situation is isolating gamers, pushing them away and losing what could be potential fans and buyers. If you reach out to these types of gamers that would like to play the game the way THEY want to, you make new fans, new buyers and new people who want to see you succeed. That is a very good thing. I also believe that is the future of games. Games are getting more customizable, more modular, modding has exploded and we are only going to see more of this, IMO.

So to sum it up, adding an Easy Mode to Dark Souls would not ruin the game, because that is precisely what those who want the Easy Mode would be playing the game for. If Easy Mode was pushed onto all of us as the only option, that would be terrible and in turn negatively affect the game. But options for those who want them just bring more people into the fold. You are actually making people happy who otherwise may have not even played the game to begin with.

Not sure I can make it any clearer than that.

 

[Valky]

Unfortunately I can't play every RPG ever made yet

Well since Dark Souls isn't an RPG, you have no excuse not to play it.

 

[Grauken]

But options for those who want them just bring more people into the fold. You are actually making people happy who otherwise may have not even played the game to begin with.

You sound like a missionary

 

[sser]

Easy mode is not a marketing tool.

 

[Doktor Best]

Unfortunately I can't play every RPG ever made yet. I am working through a great NWN module right now that is tough as nails. I'm also playing a bit of Ember which is a CRPG-lite in some ways, but Hard difficulty at least adds a bit of a challenge to the encounters. Also still rolling with Dungeons & Dragons: Tactics for the PSP (surprising ToEE-style tactical RPG with a deep D&D 3.5 implementation) and Lords of Xulima - Hardcore Ironman "blind" run. You can find the latter 2 Let's Plays on my YouTube channel and the NWN module to come.

However, I understand what you're saying. I preciasely understand it. You think that giving an option to alter the experience to make it easier for someone who wants that would confer a lesser experience to the player in question, thus leading to a less impact in the word of mouth in the gaming community. But what I'm saying is that you have no way to say that with certainty. I have encountered people on the interwebz who would play Dark Souls but are turned off by the high level of challenge in the game. To put it in simpler terms, some players want to play Dark Souls just to run around and kill things, explore the world and enjoy the scenery. While you and I may think that would be an inferior experience for us, you can't project that onto someone else. If someone wants to play Pillars of Eternity in Story Mode and not bother with combat, that's their perogative. Obsidian has easily granted them that option if they choose, and it does not affect our playthroughs of the game, even if we consider that a much inferior option that would ruin our own enjoyment of the game.

Jeff Vogel mentioned something in a past blog about making sure your own enjoyment of a game does not negatively impact others' enjoyment of the same game. That is, developers should get away from forcing anything on the gamer that can't be toggled or made easier or yes, even more difficult. All you are doing in that situation is isolating gamers, pushing them away and losing what could be potential fans and buyers. If you reach out to these types of gamers that would like to play the game the way THEY want to, you make new fans, new buyers and new people who want to see you succeed. That is a very good thing. I also believe that is the future of games. Games are getting more customizable, more modular, modding has exploded and we are only going to see more of this, IMO.

So to sum it up, adding an Easy Mode to Dark Souls would not ruin the game, because that is precisely what those who want the Easy Mode would be playing the game for. If Easy Mode was pushed onto all of us as the only option, that would be terrible and in turn negatively affect the game. But options for those who want them just bring more people into the fold. You are actually making people happy who otherwise may have not even played the game to begin with.

Not sure I can make it any clearer than that.

You are assuming that challenge has the same purpose and the same significance in every game. NWN modules are typical pen and paper adaptions. They are much more about dialogues, atmosphere, quest design and narrative immersion than Dark Souls. Those game can have combat challenge, as sidedish, as an exercise to loosen up. Dark souls is challenge. The whole game, leveldesign, combat system, enemy placement, trap placement, character progression, the way it deals with death is built around the idea to pose a different, not necessarily harder challenge.

You can easily achieve what you are proposing by grinding a few levels by the way, which doesnt take you long once you've figured out where to do it. But that will never make you able to steamroll the game, because the combat system and enemy design doesnt allow it. Never will.

As i said, play the game, then we talk.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

I'm going to have to disagree with your point about NWN and the basic premise behind it. Remember, I am playing Xulima on Hardcore Ironman, which is about as much of a challenge as one could get in a modern RPG (in b4 Celerity mentions Deepest Dark :D.) While I haven't played Dark Souls I do have doubts that it's even as hardcore as Xulima, where I am literally progressing the game by the skin of my teeth at times.

But I will play DS sometime and get back to you. I still think you're missing the point a bit. I guess a better way to say it is that some gamers want a very minimal or even nonexistent challenge. They'd be completely happy to progress in Dark Souls, explore the world and kill cool looking monsters without much of a challenge.

 

[Celerity]

Xulima vanilla is far from the hardest game out there. Dark Souls is the same. Even ignoring stuff I made there's plenty of harder games out there.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Of course it depends on how well you know the game as well. We know that you (Celerity) can beat Xulima in 3 in-game days with no deaths and no resting. Not everyone cares to learn a game to that level, but if/when they do, they don't seem to be many games that can't be beasted on with a high level of game mechanics knowledge. Unless it's very RNG-heavy, but even in an RPG considered somewhat hardcore such as Elminage Gothic, there are elements introduced later that make the game easier. I wasn't struggling as much at hour 60 in that game as I was in Xulima, both on first "blind" playthroughs.

For Xulima, a first run on Hardcore Ironman, the game has a very tight resource management element. Much tighter than almost all RPGs I've played, probably ever. At 60+ hours in I was still scrounging for Food and Gold, managing every potion and scroll carefully and so on. Usually by 60 hours in other RPGs, the game is over or the economy doesn't really pose much of a challenge or second thought. So I thought in that regard Xulima is good.

 

[Celerity]

Less than 70, not 3. Anyways, there's still harder games than it.

Elminage Gothic is a lot harder than Xulima, mostly in an RNG way. Enemies appear, get 5 turns, and instant kill you with all of them. That's not an exaggeration. You wouldn't know because you never made it past the tutorial levels.

At 60 hours in Xulima my gold was being spent on extra stuff like potions and skill points (which cost 30k-90k each). It's kind of tight at the beginning but unless you go full derp you can afford stuff after that.