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Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
Which sucks badly, but it's that or trying to outsmart (at least) two very capable Gieloths in the middle of their stronghold. I say fuck that, the only way we should be going to see Marduk is with an army. Our army.

You know what bro, you're right. We wouldn't be arriving in Sumeria with our army. That's absolutely true. We would be arriving there with Astarth's army once he finds out that we've repelled and slaughtered a huge Babylonian force. Astarth's probably salivating at the prospect of sending 10,000 Egyptian warriors toward a swift counter-attack on a now extremely vulnerable Babylon whose army has been crushed. He is a shrewd politician - he'll use the news of our heroic sacrifice as a byword for military loyalty, courage and selflessness. For once, Astarth's ambitious warmongering would end up being a great asset for us rather than a liability. He'll be making plans to invade Babylon the moment word gets to him.

That could very well be our trump card. I don't think that Nabu is aware of the political situation in Egypt and how determined Astarth is to go on the warpath. The Egyptian invasion of Sumeria that will follow will mean that the two remaining Gieloth in the area are going to have their hands full.
 

treave

Arcane
Patron
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11,370
Codex 2012
Re: telepathy

That was more a side effect of the coma. During the restoration most of your abilities went up slightly.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,038
Location
NZ
A. Best of a tough lot. I'd then say we should get the hell out of the Middle East.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
I call this one the win-win choice. It is a win in the short term because it saves our men (both Egyptian AND Babylonian) and also saves our mind and body. In the medium term it is win because we get the entire trip back to Babylon to talk to a Gieloth and learn its politics. If we ever want to get past the ALL TENTACLES MUST DIE stage we have to learn more about them. So far all the ones we have met have exhibited a strong lawful evil bent. We can work with that. It is a win in the medium-long term because it gives us either the opportunity to a) say fuck it and fade back into our old homeland, but after a few weeks of recovery, or b) Actually get a strike at the fucker who is besmirching OUR GOOD NAME. Sure, there will be backstabbing and such, but we can deal with that at the time. Lastly it is good in the long term. What do we have left in Egypt? Unless we want to try our hand at ruling (fun at first but gets boring fast) we have already finished curb-stomping all of the local Gieloth, so we probably would need to move on sooner or later. This way we get a nice inroad into sanitizing our old homeland.

Let's not be so quick to call it win-win. We have no idea if this guy will follow through with his part of the bargain, he could easily fuck us over once we get there. We are the ones taking a leap of faith here, not him. It's possible that this is just a ploy to get us out of our walls so that our body is right in front of him. At any time we're out there, he could simply mind-rape us and bring us to Marduk whenever he pleases. I am willing to take that risk because of the fact that we already know that the Gieloth don't quite see eye-to-eye on a lot of things. We know that Sekhenun wasn't too sorry about betraying her people by aiding us because she felt that they never really helped her. Maybe this guy is the same way.

Then again, D might be the only thing that saves us from the foolish decisions we've made in this battle. Sometimes you have to suffer and take the hit no matter what.

C.
This is the Pyrrhic-lose option. Best case we manage to force a tie. Most likely we take serious damage. Then the next day our army gets hacked to pieces and us with it. Cue the results of choice B.

What would be so bad about a tie? If we survive the Gieloth's psychic assault, it might give us enough time to recover by morning. I don't think of C simply as a bitter war of attrition in which both sides need to wear each other down until only one of us is left standing. It means that we would fight tomorrow, but we could certainly retreat the next day.

treave: What would have happened had we attacked the tower instead of the general? Or instead of cowering behind the walls we decided to use our telekinesis to knock the tower down?
 

treave

Arcane
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Codex 2012
You would have been able to disable the tower. But you would also have been discovered by Nabu, though depending on how you react you might either get captured or successfully escape. Going after the general was the safer choice in the short run, though leaving the tower standing deprived you of options later down the road.

Charging the tower would not have been the best idea in your weakened condition. You would have gotten close enough to disable it with telekinesis (it topples not because of brute strength but because you gradually chip away at it enough that it becomes unstable), but you would later get overwhelmed by the enemy and captured. As Nabu would have had to keep his attention on you after that, this means that the battle becomes that of just your demoralized army and the fortress vs the Babylonians, taking all the superpowers out of the equation. Holding the wall was, again, the safer choice. Catapults would have helped against the tower, giving you another option during the day's battle.
 

ScubaV

Prophet
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,022
Well, he's spoken with Sekhenun after she became a pariah so he's obviously got at least some amount of rebel streak in him. He also says he's going to dismantle the tower once we're a hundred paces away from the gates. Somehow I doubt that little bit of distance is enough to make the difference between succeeding and failing a total mind-rape. No, if he's going to try to put one over on us, which I fully expect, it will be further down the line. Depending on what Sekhenun told him, he may still be expecting us to be the big, dumb, brute. If so, we can turn that to our advantage:

Tw2_journal_Letho.png
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
As Esquilax says, A is definitely not a win-win option. We need to think of the big picture as well. We didn't come to Tjaru or to Egypt with the aim of taking out this Lord Marduk at whatever cost. Now, someone who is our enemy comes along and suggests "hey trust me let's go kill Marduk by putting you in the riskiest position evar" and we're going to say yes? All the work we did to turn Egypt into a country that will hopefully support us, a place from which to draw on for manpower and resources, and ideally to then use as a jump-off point for traveling/conquest or to leave a legacy for later - we're giving up on all the good work we did in Egypt and Tjaru for a sudden, ill-defined assassination quest that squarely puts us at the mercies of a devious, mind-controlling Gieloth.

We've got a situation here where A is winning, but mainly because those who are rightly skeptical of A are divided between C and D. I say we should pool our votes together here, because C and D are both options to retain Ean's independence and thus our control over where the story goes and what we want to be doing; and it's also an option to keep the story grounded in human affairs and us as champions of humanity, making for more interesting options. Nothing awaits us in Sumeria except for Gieloth power politics and shadowy sneaking around that we have always sucked at. Egypt is where we can make a name, where we can raise an army, where we can lead them to glory against Sumeria or otherwise.

I'm obviously partial to Cs flopping to D, since D has more votes at the moment, but I'd prefer C vastly to A as well. In any case, if we pool our votes then we're neck and neck with A.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
Looking at the votes, I think I'll leave this choice open for another day - no matter what you choose, the Sands of Egypt chapter will end in the next update, and a new chapter will begin next Tuesday after I return from a tropical island vacation.

This doesn't mean that you will be leaving Egypt regardless of your choices - just that there will be different paths that the story can go from here, and they are all significantly different enough to warrant the start of a new chapter.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
The frequent updates have been an awesome thing and we're thankful, but everyone needs a vaction. ;)
Have fun, bro.
 

kazgar

Arcane
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
2,164
Location
Upside Down
I'm good with D, if it works it'll get rid of the tower, and maybe the dude, and also take out more soldiers, once that's done the babylonians will be leaderless and hopefully go "fuck this shit" and head home, especially after being mindraped a couple of times. And A seems pretty wussy, if we head back to our homeground, we should do it under our own steam.
 

Smashing Axe

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Messages
2,835
Divinity: Original Sin
I'll flop if necessary when the time comes to D, Tigranes is right in that A is a horrible option. But I dislike D immensely and think we should at the very least try to defy this Gieloth before taking the fuck-it option. The guy is manipulative by his very nature, and as Azira said, warfare is all about bluffs and feints. We don't know enough to believe he's capable of mind-shattering us from this distance, with the Honourblade in hand, with walls between us, with us prepared for a psychic assault.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
I agree we need to think the big picture. We don't know much about Gieloth politics but we do know that there is internal strife going on. Gieloths have divided atleast in two camps: Nabu's and Marduk's. Nabu can't possible be alone in wanting to take Marduk out of the picture. If Nabu were to die, say in sudden earthquake, would all his supporters flock behind Marduk, making him even more powerfull? Or would they find someone else to try and take Marduk's place? But if Marduk were to die by our hand, would there be bloody figth for the succession or would everyone rally behind Nabu? If they were to rally behind Nabu, that wouldn't be a good thing to either.

So in my opinion, our best bet is to keep Gieloths fighting amongs themselves.

I vote B.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
As Esquilax says, A is definitely not a win-win option. We need to think of the big picture as well. We didn't come to Tjaru or to Egypt with the aim of taking out this Lord Marduk at whatever cost. Now, someone who is our enemy comes along and suggests "hey trust me let's go kill Marduk by putting you in the riskiest position evar" and we're going to say yes? All the work we did to turn Egypt into a country that will hopefully support us, a place from which to draw on for manpower and resources, and ideally to then use as a jump-off point for traveling/conquest or to leave a legacy for later - we're giving up on all the good work we did in Egypt and Tjaru for a sudden, ill-defined assassination quest that squarely puts us at the mercies of a devious, mind-controlling Gieloth.

I don't think that anyone expected a lot of things in Egypt - we've definitely strayed from our goal of "kill remaining Children of Sekhenun, install pharoah, then gtfo!" The world is interconnected, and the decisions that we make in Egypt caught the attention of the outside world. But I agree that there comes a time when you've got to say "enough is enough" and stop reacting to your opponent's moves so that you can make some of your own.

What concerns me is this: if Nabu has a device that amplifies his psychic abilities, why would he dismantle it once we agreed to his arrangement? Why would Nabu get rid of the one thing that's keeping us from killing him? It doesn't add up, it's like a bully no longer robbing you because you pay him. Sure, maybe he needs our mind sharp so that we can kill Marduk for him, but why would he let us recover during the journey and hope we don't kill him along the way? It doesn't make sense for a manipulator to expose himself like that. It's just as likely that he's a loyal soldier to Marduk - after all he saved Baran with his psychic shield, and from all appearances Baran was quite loyal.

Proximity plays a big role in Nabu's power because it's a factor in Ean's own telepathy/psionics. Ean can't scramble someone's brain or read their thoughts without touching them, so how close/far we are from Nabu certainly matters a great deal. Nabu could easily destroy our mind with his tower up close - but with the Honorblade, our defenses up and our distance from the attacker, it might be just enough to stay alive.

I think that it is worth the risk and that we have a chance at pulling through. FLOPPING TO C. What clinched it is that I realized that all of the options but D are all equally risky. Option A could simply be an ploy designed to draw us out and fry our minds. Option B is just plain crazy. But C is the only one that allows us to keep things on our own terms. The battle is taking a heavy toll on the attackers, and I am hoping that this is a ploy by Nabu to try and end the battle quickly.

Edit: Zero Credibility: A page or so ago, you corrected me by saying that the worst-case scenario for C was being put into a coma and captured once our men are slaughtered. Well, that's also true for A/B, except for those two options we pretty much gift-wrap our body for the Gieloth's convenience. With C, at least we can hold out for some hope that our men will retreat back to the Delta with our body in tow. There is at least the chance of escaping should things go sour, while A/B don't offer even that.

...it's also an option to keep the story grounded in human affairs and us as champions of humanity, making for more interesting options. Nothing awaits us in Sumeria except for Gieloth power politics and shadowy sneaking around that we have always sucked at. Egypt is where we can make a name, where we can raise an army, where we can lead them to glory against Sumeria or otherwise.

We're about fifty updates in and we still have no clue what this galactic conflict is about. Being a champion of humanity is all well and good, but we have to know what the fuck is going on at some point. Playing Gieloth power politics is probably not the way of going about it; our guy isn't some Sumerian Anthony Sommers here, he sucks at this sort of thing. Astarth is a mortal and he played us like a fiddle, how do you imagine we'll fare against beings like that, except now they've got superpowers?

I've already mentioned Astarth's army before as a potential distraction, but I'm not sure anymore. Astarth's men are all the way in Thebes, it would take them a long time to reach Babylon. Assuming it isn't a trap, we'd probably be seeing Marduk long before they show up.
 
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Edit: Zero Credibility: A page or so ago, you corrected me by saying that the worst-case scenario for C was being put into a coma and captured once our men are slaughtered. Well, that's also true for A/B, except for those two options we pretty much gift-wrap our body for the Gieloth's convenience. With C, at least we can hold out for some hope that our men will retreat back to the Delta with our body in tow. There is at least the chance of escaping should things go sour, while A/B don't offer even that.
Oh, I'm not saying that the other choices don't suck - they all very much do.

A runs the risk of Nabu simply lying to us to lure us into a trap. I don't think that's the case though - I think he really does have the ability to pull it off. But even if he isn't lying about it, it would put us in hostile territory and we would have to deal with not one, but two (that we know of) high level Gieloths. On the plus side, if he isn't lying to us we will keep our full powers.

B sucks badly - I very much doubt Nabu won't realize we are lying to him - he is in our head right now. If he figures it out he is going to attack immediately. At least in C we have honourblade to defend us - in B we have nothing.

C is also very risky - if he breaks through our defenses he is definitely going to deliver our body to his master. His troops are probably ready to storm us right now - why else would he initiate contact? And even if we defeat him, it's a gamble will we recover enough by tomorrow to take out his tower before he kills everyone in the fortress.

D is the only choice that doesn't depend on what Nabu is planning. Yeah, we'll get fucked for sure this way, but at least we'll get fucked on our own terms. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather end up in a coma or depowered then having that Marduk fucker posses our body for the next couple of centuries. That's why I'm voting D - it's the best choice available to avoid that.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
What concerns me is this: if Nabu has a device that amplifies his psychic abilities, why would he dismantle it once we agreed to his arrangement? Why would Nabu get rid of the one thing that's keeping us from killing him?
o_O
The one thing keeping us from killing him? You mean besides his formidable psychic abilities and - oh, yeah - his entire freak'n army? Yeah, no - if it weren't from that darn tower, I'm sure we could just walk right up and kill him.
With that, you feel his tentacle on your brain, pressing on your mind. Instantly you realize the sheer extent of his psychic abilities. He would be formidable enough without his tower, but with it, he could shatter your mind with one push. It wouldn't be permanent, but you would certainly go into a coma for quite some time as your mind repaired itself. You resist the urge to break out into a cold sweat somehow, and keep your calm while chewing the tough crocodile meat that were part of the cellar stockpiles.

Esquilax, do you really think 100 paces is going to make that much difference to this guy? He can control his entire army from the distance he's currently at, and read our thoughts, and control the weather...

The fact of the matter is Nabu is an extremely talented psychic who's been watching and toying with us since before the start of the battle.

I think he's willing to disarm the device because:
1. He outnumbers us 4900 to 1000 and is confident our troops would be slaughtered should we try to attack him - tower or no.
2. He's probably confident that he could read our intent and mind zap us from close range if we got out of control. (After all, he's such an experienced psychic that he can create a barrier that we don't have the skill to break - and he knows it.)
3. I'm betting that he'll have his men chain us up before we meet him.
4. He's arrogant as hell - and from the look of things he's got a right to be.

From what I can see C has zero hope of winning. Their last charge killed 500 of their soldiers and put 800 of our soldiers out of commision. That's what we call a losing battle, folks. Maybe, just maybe we'd be able to repel them one more time, but with heavy casualties - especialy since it's the militia's turn to fight and hundreds of them lack training and experience - but then what will we do?

Normally I'm all for the heroic last stand, but this is pointless. I honestly don't understand how it looks like a viable choice to anyone. If you could show me how it's possible to win you may sway my vote. I'm an open-minded guy as you know by now. But I just don't see it doing anything except getting all our troops killed and (probably if he's not lying) getting us brain neutered.

I still say D, but I'm willing to go to A if it doesn't have the votes. I don't completely trust his deal either, but it's the only other way I can see to save the lives of our troops and prevent the fort from being overrun. And as Storyfag says, we'd learn more about the Gieloth.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
Well goddamn. Can't argue with any of that, flopped to D in my original. I am content with A as well. I'm tired of going back and forth with this, and trying to dig out an escape from a shitty situation. Fuck it, we want Nabu gone, we have to unleash the Doomsday Machine. Sometimes you just have to be willing to sacrifice if you want to win, this is one of those times. No question that we'll have to gtfo of Egypt immediately and head to some obscure part of Northern Europe to lay low for a couple of centuries. Maybe we can resurface in the myths as Thor in the future.

When Nabu dies, I think Marduk will be so enraged that he'll abandon Babylon to look for us. With most of the Gieloth dead and the Babylonian army destroyed, Astarth will carve out an Empire across the Middle East with ease. With a weak heir, I am not sure that it will survive him, however. It's hard to see the implications that D is going to have on human progress, though. Regardless of A or D, I'm pretty sure Ean's actions in Egypt have cemented his legacy there forever.

3. I'm betting that he'll have his men chain us up before we meet him.

Now that you mention it, he'll probably confiscate our sword. And we'll have to let him. Telekinesis might make retrieving it easier, but my point is that with either A or D losing the sword is a distinct possibility.

4. He's arrogant as hell - and from the look of things he's got a right to be.

Maybe this is a weakness we can use against him with Option A. He's known a lot about Ean from Sekhenun, so he knows that we spared her out of honor. If we behave like a good dog for the next while, it's likely that he'll let his guard down for a moment where we can catch him. Relinquishing the sword temporarily would be necessary.

Considering Ean created the foundation for the modern Babylonian military, I'm also wondering what Nabu's men think of us. I'm guessing a mix of fear, hatred and respect for our abilities. Maybe some admiration for giving ourselves up for the sake of our men, perhaps that's also something we can us.
 

ScubaV

Prophet
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,022
If and when it comes down to traveling to a new region of the world, you guys may want to consider the Indian subcontinent or Far East instead of Europe as everyone defaults to. I believe in the world status update treave said the East has plenty of immortals but few to no Gieloth. Whether that is better or worse for our development, I don't know, but it would certainly be interesting. And who knows, perhaps we could find a like-minded immortal and make a bro for life eternity.
 

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