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Magic the Gathering Arena

lukaszek

the determinator
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deterministic system > RNG
 
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Telemetry

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Been following spectres advice and am having fun actually.

Want to make a deck for historic and with the release of kaladesh I went through some decklists from the kaladesh standard.
Always been a blue white control player, I get the most enjoyment out of those decks, especially esper. Even have an old legacy esper stoneblade still sleeved up from when I played nearly a decade ago.

Anyway, found this list:

Deck
4 Torrential Gearhulk (KLR) 70
4 Disallow (KLR) 46
1 Cast Down (DAR) 81
2 Essence Scatter (M19) 54
1 Essence Extraction (KLR) 83
4 Fatal Push (KLR) 84
4 Glimmer of Genius (KLR) 49
1 Negate (ZNR) 71
2 Syncopate (DAR) 67
4 Vraska's Contempt (XLN) 129
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria (DAR) 207
1 Arguel's Blood Fast (XLN) 90
1 Search for Azcanta (XLN) 74
1 Forsake the Worldly (AKR) 18
4 Swamp (ZNR) 274
3 Island (ZNR) 269
4 Isolated Chapel (DAR) 241
4 Irrigated Farmland (AKR) 304
3 Glacial Fortress (XLN) 255
4 Fetid Pools (AKR) 293
4 Drowned Catacomb (XLN) 253
1 Field of Ruin (THB) 242

With all the new cards released after that, what can I add/remove to make it somehow more competitive/modernized?
Seeing as sphinx rev and thoughtseize are legal those would be auto-includes? Shocks?
Although hulk and sphinx would not be best buddies.

You guys prolly know the Historic meta much better
 

Scruffy

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Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
At first glance,

7 discards looks a bit excessive (though I've seen a sudden resurgence of cuntrol in both ladders), could cost you games vs. aggro which I think may be the worse matchup.
If you want to tech vs. control, I'd use more Crawling Barrens.

Just to clarify, this is still in the "jank deck" stage, I'm playing unranked, and for some reason i find lots of Yorion there...
While I loved Agonizing Remorse, I think it's a bit obsolete (and the double black can be problematic for your mana base).

hmm do you mean grasp of darkness?
yeah it's one of the weak spots

Skyscanner looks a bit shite, I always consider those draft chaff that have no business in constructed, sure you don't want something more impactful in that slot? Mechagodzilla, heck even an Entrancing Lyre or Shambling Suit.
skyscanner draws you a card and when the monument is down is a 3/3 flyer, i mainly put it there for the card draw though, when you have a lot of mana it's nice to pay 3 for a 3/3 flier that nets you a card, but as i said, unranked jank stage still, i'll definitely take it out and try something else at some point.
 

spectre

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So, TryKaladesh works now.

lol
gave me a server error, didn't redeem dick, and if i enter it again it tells me redeem failed
always ahead
Cheeky cunts. Will gyp a man for a booster pack even. You should totally make some fuss at support. I want my fucking booster. I want to fucking TRY KALADESH.

There's also a land bundle in the store for 0 geld. Not sure what the fuck this one's about but I'm getting it before they change their mind.
they claim that znr performance was due to auto grants on login, hence from now on freebies will be handled this way
Ah, quality coding once again. But hey, they want a mobile release early 2021.

As for Historic Brawl, I believe it was planned for one of the "Zendikar tour to get cosmetics" event, so it should be there at least for a time.
 

spectre

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Just to clarify, this is still in the "jank deck" stage, I'm playing unranked, and for some reason i find lots of Yorion there...
Perfectly healthy response then. Durex them until they cry. Carry on.

hmm do you mean grasp of darkness?
yeah it's one of the weak spots
Yeah, was typing too fast, sorry.
Well, there's plenty to shit to choose from when it comes to 2 cmc removals. Eliminate, Heartless Act, Epic Downfall, Feed the Swarm (though you want instant speed shit to have on top of the bloodchief)
... heck, even a Blacklance can do some beating vs. control and gain you some life.
Depends on what ails you in particular. It's okay to have a 3/3/3 split, or even something like 2/2/2/2 especially in Bo1 and while brewing.


Been following spectres advice and am having fun actually.

Want to make a deck for historic and with the release of kaladesh I went through some decklists from the kaladesh standard.
Always been a blue white control player, I get the most enjoyment out of those decks, especially esper. Even have an old legacy esper stoneblade still sleeved up from when I played nearly a decade ago.

Anyway, found this list:
/snip/

With all the new cards released after that, what can I add/remove to make it somehow more competitive/modernized?
Seeing as sphinx rev and thoughtseize are legal those would be auto-includes? Shocks?
Although hulk and sphinx would not be best buddies.

You guys prolly know the Historic meta much better

I've mostly been playing Standard this season, there's only so many times you can play UW auras vs. Goblins until it gets stale,
but I suppose it didn't change THAT much from the last time.

First of all, if you want to play control, I encourage you to go Bo3, feels much less random this way, and it plays to the strengths of WUB to have a sideboard.
You can emulate this with Fae and a wishboard to a degree, but Historic can be stupid fast and you don't have the time for diddling about.

Some notes on that list:
I don't think it does a particularly good job at giving you the best you can get in WUB. The only real reason to run white is Teferi (and it's not a bad reason in itself).
You could use some of the highly efficient removals, like Despark. Essence Extraction is instant speed, which is good, but I think Oath of Kaya gives it a good run for its money,
hitting everything and with additional incidental life gain.

- Search for Azcanta - you want to have two, perhaps three, but always start with two. It's a good number I guess the plan there is to have Blood Fast as a second Azcanta of sorts,
but the thing with Bo1 you want to assume the other guy is aggro. And Blood Fast is dead vs. aggro.

- Fetal Push - you need some Revolt outlets for this thing. Fabled Passages aren't the sexiest things to use in Historic, but they revolt. This will need some testing, before you figure out the right count,
but if you still need more outlets, perhaps the tokens from Treasure map could work?. It's a slow card.

- Glimmer of Genius - I'm not really seeing a way to spend that energy on anything productive. Normally, you would use Aether Hubs, but I think you want Passages.
So, if the energy is irrelevant, I think Chemister's Insight and Hieroglyphic illumination is better when it comes to flexibility and raw card advantage, though the scry 2 is not irrelevant.
You could try Sphinx's Revelation as one of the cards in this slot as well.
I like Chemister in Bo1, where you can toss the cards that don't work for the matchup, and Illumination is great if the fucking shuffler intends on not giving you land drops.

- Irrigated Farmland / Fetid pools - I didn't bother crafting more than two, and I mostly use them in two-color decks. Obviously, start with the full set of shocks. Nothing worse than losing to a fucking tapdual.

- Vraska's Contempt - I think this one's just too slow for today's environment. Use them if you have them, but don't craft them just for the sake of this deck.
it used to be special, cause it exiles and works on 'wankers. Plenty of other stuff can do that nowadays.

- Torrential Gearhulk - ditto. Sure, you can get card advantage out of this clunky thing, but it can still be countered. Today's control decks are all about the Sharknado.
This might change with Disallow letting you counter the token trigger, but for the time being, i'd stick with sharks. Or try a 2/2 split and see which one you like more.
Point is, I wouldn't throw 4 wilcards at the gearhulks.

- board reset - that list has none. You don't play control without board resets. Ratchet bomb and Blast Zone if you must.

All in all, I'd start with the following template for historic wub control:

Lands: 26
1 Swamp
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Fabled Passage
12 Shocklands
7 Checklands

27 lands with 1 land being a functional one (Blast Zone, Field of Ruin, Crawling Barrens) is also fine.

Deck:
4 Disallow
4 Fatal Push
4 Glimmer of Genius - or whatever card draw you feel like running
3 Syncopate
3 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Settle the Wreckage
2 Wrath of God

That's 24 cards, leaving you with 10 slots to fill.
I reckon, plenty of people will be playing goblins, so early creature interaction will eat a few more more slots. Likewise, BGR food in some form will also stay popular, so is UW auras and vanilla mono red,
so consider having some play against these four as your main nemeses.

Could be something like:
2 Oath of Kaya
2 Kaya, Orhov Uzurper - can eat some weenies and doubles as graveyard hate. Also a win condition in a pinch.
1 Despark // Dovin's Veto

and

3 Thoughtseize - because why play black otherwise
2 Sharknado

and a preliminary Sideboard:
1 Thoughseize - when you need to complete the set
3 Graveyard hate when Kaya isn't enough. Soul Guide lantern isn't bad, you can go for the nuclear option with the Leyline. Grafdigger's Cage catches a lot of decks too.
2 Sharknado - the rest of the set goes here.
2 Dovin's Veto - you shouldn't really play Negate unless it's somehow hard on the mana.
1 Settle - sometimes you just need a settle over wrath
1 Wrath - and vice versa
3 Unmoored Ego - if you feel competitive enough that you can id what to pull to make a deck fall apart, this is a good card.
2 Your call, plenty of shit to put here. Chromium is fun, perhaps something to let you win by mill?
A classic WUB play is to have side in shit like History of Banalia when they side out all their creature removals, or perhaps Aldente Vanguard.
You need to do some shuffling to fit a full set, of course
 

Telemetry

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spectre
Holy shit dude, have a virtual beer on me! Gave me feedback and a quick rundown of the meta and some useful cards against it, all in a concise and to the point post. Cheers
Thank you for not suggesting yorion. As much value as that dude is it just feels wrong to have 80 cards

First of all, if you want to play control, I encourage you to go Bo3, feels much less random this way, and it plays to the strengths of WUB to have a sideboard.
Oh, definitely.

- Fetal Push - you need some Revolt outlets for this thing. Fabled Passages aren't the sexiest things to use in Historic, but they revolt. This will need some testing, before you figure out the right count,
but if you still need more outlets, perhaps the tokens from Treasure map could work?. It's a slow card.
What is your opinion on bloodchiefs thirst vs fatal push? thirst seems flexible while push ''situational'', esp with only 3 fab pas. problem is 5 mana is much more than 0. gonna test both.

Also a few thoughts/questions I had

- Is disallow now the de facto counterspell in historic?
- with your thoughts on hulk and power creep like you mention a few posts ago I'm prolly not going to try it. better to go creatureless with sharks and maybe a dream trawler? or amonkhet gideon? seen them in a few UW lists. what do you think of those? granted, I haven't played with sharknado yet, maybe it's a powerhouse that takes over the board on its own, we'll see.
- is narset strictly a sideboard card?
- soul guide lantern vs rest in peace? I see the benefits of soul guide but rip seems like a more ''permanent'' solution. but then reclamation sage exists. I guess the answer is more testing
 

spectre

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What is your opinion on bloodchiefs thirst vs fatal push? thirst seems flexible while push ''situational'', esp with only 3 fab pas. problem is 5 mana is much more than 0. gonna test both.
Well, fecal push used to be the shiznit I was looking out for in Kaladesh. It lost some of its lustre because of the setup involved, and, truth be told, theres a metric funkton of efficient black removal.
When it comes down to this, you will be siding out push vs control, while Bloodchief can be still remain valid as an option to remove planeswalkers. I think Bloodchief has a slight edge in Bo1, where you want to stay flexible,
on the other hand tapping out for four at sorcery speed isn't what you want to be doing in a control deck with counterspells. Cast Out is a thing to consider if you're looking for ultimate flexibility.

In the end, I don't think I would start with 4x pushes when brewing and figuring out the meta. 3x push, 1x thirst looks about right.
Depends how often I would need to trigger revolt, but had no fetchland to crack, I might go as low as 2x push / 2x thirst / 3x passage.

Gave me feedback and a quick rundown of the meta and some useful cards against it, all in a concise and to the point post.
Well, I still forgot shit. Combo for instance. There's a lot of Neoform combo decks, and I'm sure there are people out there still playing kethis, as well as the odd guy playing
I sorta glossed over this because that's what the thoughtseizes are for, as well as the unmoored egos in the sideboard.

I haven't seen ramp decks in Bo1 last time I was playing, but I'm sure you'll see some in Bo3, Reclamation is still in and so is Uro. It's not that different from combo decks,
pick their pay-off cards and if you pull the right string it tends to fall apart. Thankfully, control decks are good at this.

- Is disallow now the de facto counterspell in historic?
Given that I only cracked the welfare booster from Kaladesh (and got the conditional City of Brass out of it, yay) so far, I'm not be the most qualified guy to ask.
I'll be taking it slow, see what other kids are playing at first.
A lot of the time, control mirror matches are decided by who has the most Sharknados, Disallow can be a game changer in that it Counters Fucking Everything - even the token,
which means you will be getting disallow before the other options most likely. Obviously, you an just whiff the token away with Brazen Borrower, or fetal push it for one, so it's not that you need to craft a playset asap.
Against most other decks, cancel is still cancel. Not terrible, not great.

- with your thoughts on hulk and power creep like you mention a few posts ago I'm prolly not going to try it. better to go creatureless with sharks and maybe a dream trawler?
or amonkhet gideon? seen them in a few UW lists. what do you think of those? granted, I haven't played with sharknado yet, maybe it's a powerhouse that takes over the board on its own, we'll see.
I am ready to be proven wrong about the Gearhulks, it's just that there are jucier places to spend mythic wildcards so perhaps I'm rationalizing.
Gideon is great fun and you should definitely try the guy. He's very versatile and can be relevant for all matchups, which is a card you want for Bo3. However, that's a three mana 'wanker and you won't always be able to tap out like that.
When it comes to Sharknado, biggest selling point is that it's instant speed and uncounterable, most often you don't even play it for the main mana cost, unless it gets really grindy. It's not useless vs fast decks, you can trade with the token and get card advantage out of it, but it really shines in longer games vs. midrange and other control. Craft two and see if you like it. You will be using it a lot in Standard, so it's not a wasted investment.

- is narset strictly a sideboard card?
Similar to Gideon, biggest problem is three mana sorcery things gon't go along well with 3 mana counterspells, so they usually sit back until turn 5 or 6
until can get counterspell backup.
HOWEVER, since ramp and Hydroid Krasis can still be a thing in historic, and Narset does a good number on that one. Same thing if you run into that odd guy playing cycling. So, never say never.
I realize it's not being exactly helpful, but if you're playing control, you adapt to what you see being played.

- soul guide lantern vs rest in peace? I see the benefits of soul guide but rip seems like a more ''permanent'' solution. but then reclamation sage exists. I guess the answer is more testing
Annoyingly enough, black (which is where you see graveyard diddling, obviously) now has access to cheapo enchantment removal. Not saying every deck out there runs it, but it's not unfathomable that they'll seek to remove it in Bo3.
Yeah, you need to get the feel for it. Again, this might be the case of blowing rares on a sideboard card, it just feels bad, man.
On my end, a lot of the time just sniping a card then lying in wait for the right time will be sufficient to at least put
a hurdle on a graveyard strategy, which means I am finding the lantern sufficient for the time being.
You might incline towards a more permanent solution if you're taking your time winning the game (I recommend not doing so playing control, the games already take long, but with teferi as the wincon, sometimes it do be like that),
and the opponent is in the mood for playing it out, but I think that the lantern is overall more flexible - it never feels terrible to play even a full set of 4x - you can play them in Bo1, cause it's always possible to cycle it for cheap.
Final consideration is how much mana does it tie up on your end, you will be asking this question a lot while trying to keep open mana for counterspells.

There is also the matter of Zendikar fliplands. I think they are an interesting proposition if you want to squeeze some additional value out of a 26+ land deck.
I suppose people still need to figure out shit like how to account for them in the mana base, so jury is still out. But there's nothing wrong with trying out 1-3 of those and see how it goes.
To an extent it depends on whether Fetal Push proves itself in the meta. Accommodating fabled passages to enable it leave you very little room options for adding additional taplands.

I would definitely consider swapping one Island for the blue boltland. Jwari Disruption is a good card to have on the play. Silundi Vision can also be considered as a single, acting as a wildcard.
White doesn't have anything interesting as far as I'm concerned (a disenchant or cremate effect would be great, but alas). Black has Pelakka Predation and Mauling, but I think these are just too expensive for historic (even though you should be more likely to get a discount on mauling compared to standard play).
 
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anvi

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0mjJ52


Woooaaaa
 

anvi

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I haven't played since last Xmas more or less, so a lot has changed for me! Client seems better. Game is interesting but kinda more rock paper scissors than before. I creamed a few people and then lost to the "immune to multicolored decks" one and then some draw deck conceded to me because I played Narset. First few games were fun though. I was surprised to see my precious ranked mode had banned/rotated tons of cards. All my favorite decks have about 60 banned cards for that mode.
 

Ranselknulf

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I haven't played since last Xmas more or less, so a lot has changed for me! Client seems better. Game is interesting but kinda more rock paper scissors than before. I creamed a few people and then lost to the "immune to multicolored decks" one and then some draw deck conceded to me because I played Narset. First few games were fun though. I was surprised to see my precious ranked mode had banned/rotated tons of cards. All my favorite decks have about 60 banned cards for that mode.

It's only this way for aggro decks imo.

Control decks still can handle most situations, but there are a lot more "control friendly" cards available for aggro decks now.

I've seen a LOT more people playing mono-colored decks also. This happens because you literally needs to have a solid hand by turn 3 or you are getting spanked.

Hell, before I could rock 2 lands for the first 4 or 5 turns and still defeat an aggro deck, not any more. I had to boost up my land and re-adjust my deck when the set rotation occurred.
 

anvi

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That's good news because I like control =) I lost a few with my control decks because that immune to multi card screwed my deck full of bedevils and stuff. Another deck exiled my entire library, I almost stopped him but I didn't really have the right deck for that... And then another guy beat me with a fun RU deck that creates big tokens and counters my shit. I got a bad draw on that one but it still would have been close. Seems much more fun than when I last played and it was all turn 3/4 winning red rush crap. I am gonna enjoy updating all my decks with all the new stuff.
 

Ranselknulf

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That's good news because I like control =) I lost a few with my control decks because that immune to multi card screwed my deck full of bedevils and stuff. Another deck exiled my entire library, I almost stopped him but I didn't really have the right deck for that... And then another guy beat me with a fun RU deck that creates big tokens and counters my shit. I got a bad draw on that one but it still would have been close. Seems much more fun than when I last played and it was all turn 3/4 winning red rush crap. I am gonna enjoy updating all my decks with all the new stuff.

Some people play decks with only removal and damage cards (talking mono black). It's p. lulzy.

People in this thread were complaining about it earlier.
 

anvi

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I played a bunch more games, it seems much better than last year! All the lame and annoying shit is gone. Fires, cat oven, etc.. I played about 10 games and most were different decks from the opponents. Seems fun again. Gonna take me ages to figure out all the new stuff.
 

spectre

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Spoiler alert, most played shit is UB Rogues and GR aggro/adventures/landfall hybrid, so expect to see more of those as you rank up (or not). Especially rogues appear to be causing glorious butthurt because it's the first time some people are seeing a competitive mill deck.
However, the good news is there's plenty of diversity when it comes to valid T1,5 and T2 decks AND it's finally possible to play fucking control.

Second biggest hit are the two-sided lands. I think this was a great addition to the game, letting you fine-tune that mana to the point that getting mana flooded should happen mostly by choice.

You might like the fact that Ugin isn't too popular these days, though it's still the go-to payoff thing for ramp decks. These have actually gotten quite creative. There's the obvious GUR ramp thing trying to pick up the pieces of what used to be pre-ban Omnath with ultimatum
enabling a bunch of obnoxious plays. Like popping Terror of the Peaks with multiple beanstalk giants hitting ass and leg. I've also seen mono red ramping into Ugin with Irencrag Feat and Forsaken Monument doing the same. Come to think of it, it's slightly obnoxious that Ugin
is the only top end option these decks have, but rogues and gruul seem to be keeping them in check rather nicely, so I don't see them too often.
 

spectre

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Yeah, I was rather excited to see Big Red being a thing, then I check the list and saw it's basically ramp to Ulgix. kill Great Henges with Shattered Sails. draw cards with Mazemind. Yeay. What an exciting gameplan.
I did my share of this shit back when Urologist was still legal.

I have no quarrel with rogues. Mill in general is stupid easy to sideboard for, especially when you have a fucking set full of escape cards to work with.
And rogues, you can build them in all kinds od ways, tempo beating down with the flying lhurgoyf vampire, mill-oriented lurrus grindhouse, something more controlling with sharknados.
I agree, mill is the secondary strategy here, they only really want to reach the 8 card treshold and activate droon in the loch asap, though it sometimes comes into play against control with no quick way to close the game,
if you manage to drop an enforcer, followed by thought thief, followed by borrower followed by another thought thief, it does mill a good bunch of cards, but also packs a whallop that should close the same rather soon anyways.
 

Scruffy

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Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
I need suggestions, I am currently playing:

Deck
4 Chainweb Aracnir (THB) 167
1 Brightclimb Pathway (ZNR) 259
3 Cultivate (M21) 177
3 Duress (M19) 94
2 Castle Locthwain (ELD) 241
2 Elspeth's Nightmare (THB) 91
4 Agonizing Remorse (THB) 83
4 Mythos of Nethroi (IKO) 97
2 Grakmaw, Skyclave Ravager (ZNR) 223
2 Polukranos, Unchained (THB) 224
4 Temple of Malady (M20) 254
2 Jungle Hollow (M21) 247
4 Indatha Triome (IKO) 248
1 Eerie Ultimatum (IKO) 184
1 Branchloft Pathway (ZNR) 258
3 Solemn Simulacrum (M21) 239
2 Fabled Passage (ELD) 244
2 Swamp (ZNR) 272
2 Forest (ZNR) 279
1 Plains (ZNR) 268
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (M21) 1
3 Revitalize (M21) 31
3 Elder Gargaroth (M21) 179
2 Crawling Barrens (ZNR) 262
1 Castle Ardenvale (ELD) 238


I have always loved "The Rock" type decks, and this one is doing ok.

Is Beanstalk Giant better than Cultivate?

Revitalize or Mazemind Tome?

Other ideas?
 
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You're running 5 basic lands you absolute madman, that doesn't feel like enough for 3 cultivate, 2 fabled passage, 3 simulacrum. Beanstalk may be a better choice because it only pulls one basic rather than two and gives you a big high-cmc beater (Thus less likely to get caught up in an Ugin sweep), and I'd think mazeminds would be better than revitalize. Revitalize gives you more immediate health against aggro, but mazemind gives you more flexibility to draw a bunch of cards off of it if your HP isn't in a rush, and if HP is a concern then you can scry like a maniac to try to draw into answers and get the heal. Since you've got crawling barrens you could also probably cut down on your creatures to slip in more removal and control since you've got the big payoffs of Ugin and barrens as win conditions.

All speculation on my part though since I haven't really played a deck along those lines, but it feels like you might be better served taking more removal and sweepers in place of creatures and then winning in the long game with your ramp and big manland/dragon.
 

Ranselknulf

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I fix my 4 color deck by using this artifact.

Pay the kicker and you get three indestructible, tap for any color artifacts. Bonus points for being immune to Ugin. Most people don't play the exile artifact instants, but if they do, who cares, its just a burned removal card for them while you put more land out.

ZNR377.jpg
 

spectre

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I need suggestions

1. As said above, you will quickly run out of basics to fetch. One cultivate, one sad robot, one fabled passage and that makes four out of five, meaning your next cultivate will be barely worth casting. Crawling barrens might be fucking up your colors,
because you're effectively playing at 22 colored lands. I wouldn't run a ramp deck with fewer than 26 lands, or equivalents.
2. I understand that control touched you in funny places, but I'd cut down on the discards cause they're taking up a lot of space. So how do you cut down on discards without cutting down on discards? Elspeth's Nightmare also discards stuff but is more useful overall vs. weenies,
so consider playing one more over of durex/agonizing, swap one more for Pelakka Predation to also raise your land count. You could also try sqeezing ine one Mauling.
3. I'd use Nethroi, Apex of Death over the Ultimatum. It's difficult to cast and situational (you need a filled graveyard for it, but you're not doing any self-milling, so you rely on rogues to mill you AND not ditch the ultimatum in the process).
4. Beanstalk vs. Cultivate - cultivate fixes your mana better, immediately giving you the three colors you need. Overall, it depends on how you feel about casting the giant later in the game. It's big, but vanilla. UGR ramp decks make use of this by shooting people in the face with Terror of the Peaks.
5. Revitalize or Mazemind - Mazemind is card advantage and should be a better choice, depends on how much you need the life vs. aggro. Mazemind is also colorless so you can use it to scry yourself out of a mana screw.
6. Rest of the tweaks depend on how your ramping feels. Are you ramping fast enough? Do you need the ramp at all? Ugin aside, most of your things are fairly priced, so you don't gain much by excessive ramping.
If your 3 cmc slot feels overloaded, it's possible to ramp with Geese, Wolfwillow Haven and Lotus Cobra which do not rely on fetching basic lands, should that become a problem. Cobra in particular makes it easy to play ultimatums.

All in all, I'm not sure if you're gaining anything by adding white to a BG shell. Biggest incentive is probably mythos, it kills anything, but you're still trading one for one.
I feel you're missing out on a bunch of engines, like Edgeval Inkeeper with Order of Midnight/Lovestruck/Murderous Rider, or digging with Mire Triton and Tymaret Calls the Dead, then triggering landfall to get all the Skyclave Shades back.
Mutating shit onto scute swarm is also a good way to make people ragequit.
 
Last edited:

Scruffy

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Codex 2012 Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014
yeah it might just be too weak an archetype in this meta
and yes, white is there because of mythos, i like being able to take away anything if needed

i've made changes, put in the tome, bloodchief's thirst is simply too strong not to use it, i'll toy around and see what happens

edit
and yes changed the manabase
 

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