Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Mass Effect Legendary Edition remaster trilogy

Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
9,422
Location
Italy
ME3 has by far the best combat, to the point it's actually a pretty competent third-person shooter with some RPG-like elements in the mix. Given that combat is where you'll spend a solid majority of your time in all 3 games, ME2's stiff, dumbed-down even by Bioware standards, painful popamole slog makes it the weakest. At least the biotics were p. cool in the first one.

It always makes me laugh when ME2 gets hailed as the best of the series. It just strips away all the fun RPG-lite and exploration elements from ME1 which broke up the shit gameplay, and then puts that shit gameplay front and center with a worse balance too.
because me2 got rid of every aspect me got wrong. which is pretty much everything. me as a whole was an interesting experiment, but it was a disaster in pretty much everything it tried to do. gameplay was a punch to the face, interface like being drilled in the knuckles, dialogue choices like a groin kick. mako, oh gawd the mako.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,773
an someone tell me what the hell's going on with the main plot now.
I'll tell you but you are not gonna like it. What you are experiencing is the writer trying to handle a game like a comic. Every scene is essentially written as a self-contained mini-verse that only vaguely exists in relation to the other mini-verses. They feature similar characters and general world building but are otherwise treated as their own isolated stories. In one scene TIM is the villain and is secretly behind it all, in another he is the good guy anti-hero and in the third one he is just an asshole and so and so forth. Just like Superman is in one story a insane dictator and a spotless hero in another so does Shepard and co. switch roles and personalities depending on the scene.

The end result is this confusing collage on short stories that only vaguely connect into one coherent narrative and the reason why the trilogy had to end with a "simon says" because ultimately even the ending is its own self-contained "comic".
 

Lambach

Arcane
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
13,207
Location
Belgrade, Removekebabland
because me2 got rid of every aspect me got wrong. which is pretty much everything. me as a whole was an interesting experiment, but it was a disaster in pretty much everything it tried to do. gameplay was a punch to the face, interface like being drilled in the knuckles, dialogue choices like a groin kick. mako, oh gawd the mako.

Literally all of the things you listed have been made significantly worse. Even the Mako is positively stellar compared to the planet scanning system in 2, which is one of the worst things ever put in any video-game and should be considered a fucking war crime.
 

Padzi

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 24, 2017
Messages
1,055
Location
Auschwitz-Birkenau
ME1 from the plot standpoint is superior to both ME2 and ME3.
Shepard got revived because he was supposedly so important because of ME1 - the first human spectre. A plot point that is almost instantly abandoned when ME2 starts and his important spectre status is never relevant in the series again. Both games after ME1 are full of stupid retcons.

PLUS over the years ME2 received so much praise not because of the story or even the companions. People just really liked ME2's combat, as popamoles were at their peak during that time.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,806
Location
The Satellite Of Love
an someone tell me what the hell's going on with the main plot now.
I'll tell you but you are not gonna like it. What you are experiencing is the writer trying to handle a game like a comic. Every scene is essentially written as a self-contained mini-verse that only vaguely exists in relation to the other mini-verses. They feature similar characters and general world building but are otherwise treated as their own isolated stories. In one scene TIM is the villain and is secretly behind it all, in another he is the good guy anti-hero and in the third one he is just an asshole and so and so forth. Just like Superman is in one story a insane dictator and a spotless hero in another so does Shepard and co. switch roles and personalities depending on the scene.

Yeah, The Illusive Man does seem to be filling a million different roles. I honestly can't tell what they're going for with him at any given time. Is he a pragmatic anti-hero who's the only one willing to do what it takes (as Shepard unconvincingly tries to argue to Ashley)? Is he a sinister villain who's actively trying to get Shepard killed by sending her to colonies which are about to be attacked (if so, why)? Is he a dumbass who's in over his head and wildly overestimates his own influence and abilities?

Same for Shepard - is she a genuine convert to Cerberus, is she working with them begrudgingly, is she biding her time until she can turn the tables, etc. That feels like something the player should be able to determine themselves, but instead like you say Shepard changes from scene to scene and the player is repeatedly railroaded into making Shepard say things they don't agree with, which don't even remain consistent between conversations.

The conversation with Anderson and the Council is such a massive missed opportunity on every level. Even just a couple of throwaway lines could solve a few of the game's big problems: Shepard could have the opportunity to tell Anderson everything, and he could instruct her to continue with Cerberus for now just to gather intel on them and check out the legitimacy of the Collector threat. Game remains completely unchanged but Shepard now has a clear overarching goal and reason to continue, determined by the player's own dialogue choices.
 

Nutria

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
2,261
Location
한양
Strap Yourselves In
I really think that what the Illusive Man is all about is one of the writers saw Martin Sheen's cameo in Total Recall 2070 and decided it was really cool and badass, so he was gonna put that character in the game. That kind of extremely superficial thinking seems to be all that went into the story from ME2 onward.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
ME2 on insanity is just bullet sponge turned up to 11
ME3 on insanity is getting pelted with grenades the moment you decide to stay behind cover for .0001 seconds
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2020
Messages
1,258
Location
Germania
Can someone tell me what the hell's going on with the main plot now.
Have you finished ME2? Since you are asking questions, I will just assume that you have. So to answer them:

1. Harbinger knows who Shepard is.
2. Harbinger controls the Collectors. They are literally his pawns.
3. Harbinger obviously remembers that Shepard spoiled the Reaper's plans in ME1.
4. Harbinger wants Shepard dead, because he is dangerous.
5. The Illusive Man does have info about the Collectors, albeit limited.
6. The Illusive Man apparently knows how to float information directly to the Collectors. Perhaps the Shadowbroker is an intermediate? How he does this is indeed a mystery.
7. Apparently the Illusive man thought it would be more effective to float rumors to the Collectors instead of just having Shepard run around the Citadel or Omega.
8. The Collectors are searching for Shepard or anyone connected to him, so the Illusive Man floated information that Shepard was alive to lure them specifically to Horizon, where Ashley/Kaidan resided. The motivation behind this was to deal a blow to the Collectors, who had been abducting people on colonies.

EDIT: Corrected point one. Shepard spoke to Sovereign in ME1, not Harbinger.
 
Last edited:

Tytus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
3,653
Location
Mazovia
Can someone tell me what the hell's going on with the main plot now.
Have you finished ME2? Since you are asking questions, I will just assume that you have. So to answer them:

1. Harbinger knows who Shepard is. They even spoke in ME1.
2. Harbinger controls the Collectors. They are literally his pawns.
3. Harbinger obviously remembers that Shepard spoiled the Reaper's plans in ME1.
4. Harbinger wants Shepard dead, because he is dangerous.
5. The Illusive Man does have info about the Collectors, albeit limited.
6. The Illusive Man apparently knows how to float information directly to the Collectors. Perhaps the Shadowbroker is an intermediate? How he does this is indeed a mystery.
7. Apparently the Illusive man thought it would be more effective to float rumors to the Collectors instead of just having Shepard run around the Citadel or Omega.
8. The Collectors are searching for Shepard or anyone connected to him, so the Illusive Man floated information that Shepard was alive to lure them specifically to Horizon, where Ashley/Kaidan resided. The motivation behind this was to deal a blow to the Collectors, who had been abducting people on colonies.


Number 1 is false. That was a different Reaper. Sovereign.

Some of the other points are also false because ME3 retconned some intentions of the writers. Chris L'etoile on F13 forums wrote about what original plot for ME2 was and what actually from it made to the game before ME3 abondoned it.
 

Ravielsk

Magister
Joined
Feb 20, 2021
Messages
1,773
Chris L'etoile on F13 forums wrote about what original plot for ME2 was and what actually from it made to the game before ME3 abondoned it.
Mind elaborating on that? I would be very interested in reading up on that.
 

Tytus

Arcane
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Messages
3,653
Location
Mazovia
Chris L'etoile on F13 forums wrote about what original plot for ME2 was and what actually from it made to the game before ME3 abondoned it.
Mind elaborating on that? I would be very interested in reading up on that.

Maybe I'll write a longer post later on, but for example:

1. Reapers weren't partly organic. They were all synthetic. Each Reaper was an amalgamation of millions of minds, data about history, culture, data on DNA etc. that produced a unique Reaper mind. That is why Sovereign says each of us is a nation. And that is why Reaper had a name in ME2. Being partly organic was a change done at the 11th hour which kinda screw a lot of the foreshadowing and he really hated it. The Human Reaper boss fight was also a late addition done by the higher ups and not the writers.
2. Collectors weren't abducting humans to turn them into goo to pump into a Reaper. But were conducting a "destructive analysis" (how he called it) to find out how to upload every bit of data into a Reaper Core without corrupting the mind/information.
3. Because Reapers were an amalgamation of minds this is why Heretic Geth joined them. Geth wanted to build a dyson sphere/swarm where they could upload all of themselves, so to become a shared consciousness. Reapers were offering a shortcut to that. So, Heretic Geth took their offer, while True Geth decided to reach that goal on their own. This was also destroyed, with the Reapers being part organic. Even though, lines foreshadowing this revelation are still in the game.
4. Harbinger wanted to have Shepard either alive or his body. Because while Reapers are an amalgamation of minds they are built around a baseline individual. Because Shepard killed a Reaper, was able to read Prothean cypher and basically returned from the dead. Sovereign decided he is a worthy candidade to be the baseline for the next Reaper. This also was destroyed by the new ending but was repurposed for the ME3's ending with Blue Machine God Shepard ending.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,806
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Have you finished ME2? Since you are asking questions, I will just assume that you have. So to answer them:

1. Harbinger knows who Shepard is.
2. Harbinger controls the Collectors. They are literally his pawns.
3. Harbinger obviously remembers that Shepard spoiled the Reaper's plans in ME1.
4. Harbinger wants Shepard dead, because he is dangerous.
5. The Illusive Man does have info about the Collectors, albeit limited.
6. The Illusive Man apparently knows how to float information directly to the Collectors. Perhaps the Shadowbroker is an intermediate? How he does this is indeed a mystery.
7. Apparently the Illusive man thought it would be more effective to float rumors to the Collectors instead of just having Shepard run around the Citadel or Omega.
8. The Collectors are searching for Shepard or anyone connected to him, so the Illusive Man floated information that Shepard was alive to lure them specifically to Horizon, where Ashley/Kaidan resided. The motivation behind this was to deal a blow to the Collectors, who had been abducting people on colonies.

Haven't finished ME2 yet but I don't mind spoilers, I played it when it came out and I vaguely remember most of it.

Thanks for the explanations - I think some of the issues I'm having understanding the plot (other than The Illusive Man's motivations seeming to shift every scene) is that it's not clear how the Collectors operate or what the extent of their participation in galactic affairs is. On one hand, they're apparently well-known to the point where Jacob can recognise them by sight and they're known to make deals with people in the Milky Way to secure slaves/body parts to use in their experiments, but they're simultaneously said to be reclusive and dwell on the other side of the Omega 4 Relay, which presumably is what's necessitating us going on a suicide mission through the relay to stop them rather than just waiting on our side of the relay and blasting them as they come through, which seems like a much safer and easier option (assuming we can't just shut off the relay).
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,762
We've been over this a few times in various threads, but ME2 and ME3 did not have the planning you would expect. The events of ME2 were shuffled late in development.

Shepard dying was a publicity stunt inspired by the only clear idea they had for the game: the suicide mission. So why not take away any drama associated with it by showing that death is no obstacle in the first scene? :lol:

A shame this was another example of the lead story/setting person replaced after creating a new scifi setting.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,806
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Haha, onto the Arrival DLC which I've never played before and I'm already loving it. We agree to a top-secret mission with barely any briefing, and Hackett insists that Shepard go alone, because it's imperative that the mission remain discrete. Should we send Kasumi, who can turn invisible? How about Thane, who's stealth skills are legendary? Perhaps even a hacker like Tali? Nah, Shepard can handle it, the meathead idiot who turns everything into a bloodbath shootout.

Cue faux-stealth segment which devolves into a massive fight anyway, against the admiral's express instructions. There wasn't even a reason for this, Shepard successfully sneaked in undetected, but then a guy was stood in a corridor so she pulled her gun out and went apeshit. After our "thrilling" escape, the person we rescued admits that she actually is guilty of the charges she was imprisoned for, and planned to kill countless Batarians. Shepard can't react to this one way or another and gets railroaded into a single, neutral dialogue choice, and once again comes across as a bystander in her own game. Then we're off to a station. The doctor says that she's got a Reaper artifact on board.

Shepard, for the first time in the whole game, says something non-retarded - having such an artifact is hugely dangerous, people on the station may already be indoctrinated, and she's seen this happen before. What does she do next?

Yes, without the player's authorisation, she walks into the room containing the artifact, basically presses her whole face into it, and turns her back on the sketchy doctor. Oh no! We've been stunned by the artifact and it turns out the doctor and the rest of the staff were indoctrinated! Shepard gets into another of her trademark shootouts, but this time, you're allowed to die, which leads to a gut-bustingly funny scene where Shepard gets up off the medical bed and does some kung fu shit to knock out the two mad scientists who were trying to sedate her. Sublime.

EDIT: Oh my god, Shepard escapes from the medical bay with ease because they sealed her in a room that CONTAINS CONTROLS FOR THE SECURITY MECHS. They watch Shepard stroll over to the controls, and then actually react with shock when she starts piloting the mech.
 
Last edited:

Nutria

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 12, 2017
Messages
2,261
Location
한양
Strap Yourselves In
At least now after playing the DLC you'll have some idea wtf is going at the start of ME3. For me, I was just getting accused of committing some horrible crime and I didn't even know what it was. At first I thought they were intentionally trying to make it Kafkaesque, but then I realized they just were so stupid that they assumed everyone had played the DLC.
 

Bliblablubb

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Messages
2,925
Location
Copium Den
I'll be honest: I am one of those who think ME2 was the best. But I haven't played it since... forever, nor did I play ME1 from the new edition, so I don't know how improved ME1 is now.
As others said, ME1 was a great start, introducing a new universe with interesting characters to go with. Exept Liara, she was just too much "I am so innocent and young daddy teehee".
I especially liked the the soundtrack, and music in a game is so important to me, it easily adds/removes up to 1 troll in the rating.
I even liked the Mako parts. Yes, seriously.
But the combat and cover system was atrocious. A lot of NoFun (tm).

So when ME2 came out you had to compare it to ME1 at that time, and combat was now fun. Sure, Collectors instead of Reapers felt like a weird detour and working "with Cerberus" was questionable at least. But it focussed on the characters this time. Getting a gang together, giving me 80s buddy movie vibes. And a triumphal ending rewarding you for going the extra mile and being chummy with them, and, *gasp*, picking the correct man/womyn/other for the job WITHOUT the game telling you who! Imagine that. All of which since then has fallen out of favor of railroaded edgy endings...
Flaws aside, it just felt good man. And the soundtrack was even better this time.... so I probably rate it far higher than it deserves. :hahano:

Then came ME3 and did EVERYTHING wrong, so people obviously grasp to ME2 saying "when the franchise was still gud".

If ME1 has better gunplay now, I might put that one at the top now. Maybe.
 

jackofshadows

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
5,169
ME > ME2 > ME3

And that's a fact.
The problem with ME series fans is that they clinically cannot judge any of these games separately. ITT was a very good discussion regarding that ME2 was a soft reboot basically, which effectively makes them and ME1 as two different games. Story wise ME1 >> ME2/3, I agree, sure but it's not that good that we could just wave away that almost everything else was mediocre at best. ME2's showed lots of impovement over ME1, barring stupid mini-games though. As for RPG-elements - yes, they've been cut but there wasn't much in ME1 to talk about to begin with. The DLCs again, if uncoherent and stupid story wise, were far more entertaining in ME2 than ones from ME1 (those were just awful as far as I remember).

Now, to ME3. I still don't fully get what the fuss/hate was about it and have only one explanation for that: people were invested hard and their high expectation were also subverted hard. In a bad way. However first, as we established with ME2 it already happened once and second, of all places reading the same bits on the Codex is odd. Did people really care that much about ME story? Kek. Besides, ME3 authors were trying to please both sides: the fans who got their series of delightful outcomes, and the newcomers who got their if bizarre but interestingly enough absolutely dreary atmosphere, I kinda dig that.

Needless to repeat that ME3 is head and shoulders above ME1/2 in terms of combat and that's what you're doing most of the time in these games. DLCs too, hands down. The choices become much more meaningful, obviously. It's not spacedick/servileass anymore, Shep is now decides fates of the species, no less.

That said, I wouldn't mind at all completely different series development, with clever writing, proper continuation, more RPG-elements or even solid mechanics and so on but we've got what we've got.

Regarding retcons: they're lame, no question about that but again, they're irrelevant in game to game comparisons.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,806
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Just finally bothered to do Zaeed's loyalty mission and I think it demonstrates what's bothering me about the game, or rather, the game's lost potential and lack of ambition:

Zaeed, being a psycho, goes mental and endangers civilians by setting fire to an oil refinery. Shepard has to make a choice - let the refinery workers burn to death in order to stay on Zaeed's good side, or tell Zaeed to go fuck himself and abandon him to rescue the workers. I chose to save the workers, I don't know what happens if you pick the other option, but I'll give the devs the credit of assuming the following encounter doesn't happen.

Zaeed's target gets away, ostensibly due to Shepard delaying the mission by insisting on saving the workers. The game even signals to the player that choosing to do the right thing here will fail Zaeed's loyalty mission (the dialogue wheel choice is phrased as "screw loyalty" or something like that). Zaeed's target escapes and he points a gun at Shepard, screaming at her that she's cost him everything.

If the game was brave, it'd stick with the theme it's set up here. The cost of doing the right thing should be to lose Zaeed, or even to be forced into a lethal confrontation with him. Instead, a nearby girder falls on him (lmfao) and Shepard gets an easy dialogue choice which clears the mission and also assures Zaeed's loyalty.

This is one of the very, very few times so far where Shepard's actually been able to take an active role in events and assert herself and her values as a leader, and it ends up being meaningless and devoid of consequence. If they just had the balls to make your choice actually matter here, and to make the morally appealing choice that most players will go for have a real consequence for the player, this could have been great. Imagine if all the loyalty missions were like this, inviting the player to either discard their morals for the sake of keeping their crew of lunatics happy, or stick by their morals at the cost of alienating their team and potentially having them turn on you. This would have made the game incredible for Paragon characters, and a lot of fun for Renegade characters too, since it'd offer opportunities to go apeshit which ME1 never really did.

This would make the story fascinating since it'd be about a relatively honourable ex-military officer trying to keep his or her moral integrity intact while dealing with some of the worst people in the galaxy. This'd make it a nice counterpart to ME1 too - it's easy to do the right thing when you're a military officer with the entire Alliance behind you and you're being put in simplistic black-and-white situations, but it's much harder to be a good person when you're out on the fringes of the galaxy being immersed in all kinds of horrific shit.

Instead, the game always pussies out and offers you a nice colour-coded dialogue option to get all the rewards at none of the costs. Tali's mission does the same thing - turning in the evidence of her father's atrocities is clearly the right thing to do, but alienates Tali. Taking part in a coverup is ethically unconscionable, but will keep Tali happy. It doesn't matter though because you can click the red or blue auto-win option to get the best of both worlds. If the game had allowed you to alienate crewmates to the point where they ditch you, the suicide mission could be fascinating for Paragon characters - you'd have basically nobody left to stand by you, meaning you'd be essentially fucked (it could even be impossible to get a good ending at this point if the writers had any real balls), and it would encourage subsequent playthroughs where players would have to consider exactly how far they're prepared to morally compromise themselves in order to get a better ending.

Haha, onto the Arrival DLC which I've never played before and I'm already loving it.
Yeah, stuff can get wonky at times. Have you played Lair of the Shadow Broker before?

Never played it and I'm still putting it off, as the one thing I know about it is that it involves a hovercar chase. However, I'm kind of looking forward to it now as I've given up on taking the game in any way seriously and I'm starting to enjoy it as the nonsensical B-movie disaster that it is. Arrival legit made me laugh out loud several times.

If ME1 has better gunplay now, I might put that one at the top now. Maybe.

Legendary Edition's combat is pretty good - it still feels strangely stiff and clunky but it's a hundred times better than the original game's, and if you stay on top of upgrading your equipment, the game offers a nice steady stream of rewards to players who specialise in one type of weapon. I chose pistols and it was great, killing everything in three or four headshots on Hardcore. ME2's is smoother but somehow a lot less fun, there's far less powers available to play with and there's no real sense of building a character in a typical RPG sense, so it just feels to me like a third-rate cover shooter. Any larger mech units in particular just suck the fun out of the game, bullet sponge nightmares.
 
Last edited:

jackofshadows

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
5,169
If the game was brave, it'd stick with the theme it's set up here. The cost of doing the right thing should be to lose Zaeed, or even to be forced into a lethal confrontation with him. Instead, a nearby girder falls on him (lmfao) and Shepard gets an easy dialogue choice which clears the mission and also assures Zaeed's loyalty.
This I think partially refers to quite disgusting DLC nature. Give the customer what he's paid for, no matter what. Whether any member fail they loyality mission or not has some implications after all.
This would make the story fascinating since it'd be about a relatively honourable ex-military officer trying to keep his or her moral integrity intact while dealing with some of the worst people in the galaxy. This'd make it a nice counterpart to ME1 too - it's easy to do the right thing when you're a military officer with the entire Alliance behind you and you're being put in simplistic black-and-white situations, but it's much harder to be a good person when you're out on the fringes of the galaxy being immersed in all kinds of horrific shit.
ME3 improves on this big time. Especially in
both Mordin's and Rex's (gen sabotage dock aftermath) cases
I'm starting to enjoy it as the nonsensical B-movie disaster that it is.
Yesss, that's the right approach.
 

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,826
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
If the game was brave, it'd stick with the theme it's set up here. The cost of doing the right thing should be to lose Zaeed, or even to be forced into a lethal confrontation with him. Instead, a nearby girder falls on him (lmfao) and Shepard gets an easy dialogue choice which clears the mission and also assures Zaeed's loyalty.
If you do his loyalty mission after the suicide mission (i.e. the post-game), you can actually leave Zaeed to die in the fire. No idea why Bioware restricted the choice that way.

I don't know what happens if you pick the other option, but I'll give the devs the credit of assuming the following encounter doesn't happen.
It doesn't. Zaeed kills his target and everyone leaves happy. (except for the the workers and their families)
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom