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Mass Effect Legendary Edition remaster trilogy

Lokiamis

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I believe Ashley has a line in the first game where she questions Shepherd's decision to give Tali access to the engine room, being concerned that Tali might attempt to steal the new technology.
And then in the second game it's revealed that Tali did steal the plans to give to her race.
 

Lambach

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I believe Ashley has a line in the first game where she questions Shepherd's decision to give Tali access to the engine room, being concerned that Tali might attempt to steal the new technology.
And then in the second game it's revealed that Tali did steal the plans to give to her race.

Ho, fuck, I forgot about this one. :lol:

In general, all of Ashley's views and fears that Bioware's writers tried to pass off as unfounded, irrational, bigoted or what have you, turned out to be 100% justified.... by Bioware's own writing and plot development. In fact, the only time she has an opinion that the game shows us is objectively wrong is when she thinks Shepard is still working with Cerberus in ME3.

I legit can't tell if the writers were making some tongue-in-cheek commentary by doing this, or if they were as utterly void of any semblance of self-awareness as Lacrymas is.

:philosoraptor:
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Diversity in the ME universe is heavily pushed by the Asari, the dominant political force since they can biologically breed out all the other races. So Lacrymas is correct in saying that Ashley's views would be totally not kosher in citadel territory, the same way the irl equivalent would be not kosher in the first world since there is a belief that everyone would eventually adopt western culture.
 

wahrk

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Imagine calling Ashley an “extremist” for distrusting aliens in a universe where one species already mass sterilized another species for being too much trouble after they uplifted them for the purpose of genociding another species.
 
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Semiurge

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Ho, fuck, I forgot about this one. :lol:

In general, all of Ashley's views and fears that Bioware's writers tried to pass off as unfounded, irrational, bigoted or what have you, turned out to be 100% justified.... by Bioware's own writing and plot development. In fact, the only time she has an opinion that the game shows us is objectively wrong is when she thinks Shepard is still working with Cerberus in ME3.

I legit can't tell if the writers were making some tongue-in-cheek commentary by doing this, or if they were as utterly void of any semblance of self-awareness as Lacrymas is.

:philosoraptor:

Bigots are never right, even when they allegedly have been! Repeat that. Only virtuous peoples' warnings are worth listening to. The words of bigots shall be removed from history, in time. The past will be perfected, and the present with it.

But going by your logic, a solid majority of the Galaxy is also extremist due to their mistrust of humans which is well-established in the lore.

Imagine calling Ashley an “extremist” for distrusting aliens in a universe where one species already mass sterilized another species for being too much trouble after they uplifted them for the purpose of genociding another species.

But... only humans can be bigots!
 
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I believe Ashley has a line in the first game where she questions Shepherd's decision to give Tali access to the engine room, being concerned that Tali might attempt to steal the new technology.
And then in the second game it's revealed that Tali did steal the plans to give to her race.
Whenever an alien puts the needs of their people before yours, it's NOBLE and BRAVE.
 

Ismaul

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"You want to get involved with some alien (black person)? Go ahead, it's none of my business."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters (flaming queers)"
"I am no fan of aliens (Jews)."
"Jealous? Of you? You are not even our species (not even white)."
What is this you have in parentheses there?

Is that like, your interpretation, man? You seeing oppression and victims everywhere you look, races and faggots behind every word? And you call Ashley racist and xenophobic?

My god.
 
Vatnik Wumao
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Imagine calling Ashley an “extremist” for distrusting aliens in a universe where one species already mass sterilized another species for being too much trouble after they uplifted them for the purpose of genociding another species.

Birth control is not genocide bigot. Now go support your nearest abortion clinic and the right for a woman to choose.

Jokes aside, that's the exact argument Mordin uses in ME2. The genophage does not sterilize Krogans. It merely reduces their fertility to "responsible" levels.
 

Lacrymas

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"You want to get involved with some alien (black person)? Go ahead, it's none of my business."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters (flaming queers)"
"I am no fan of aliens (Jews)."
"Jealous? Of you? You are not even our species (not even white)."
What is this you have in parentheses there?

Is that like, your interpretation, man? You seeing oppression and victims everywhere you look, races and faggots behind every word? And you call Ashley racist and xenophobic?

My god.
That was to connect it to some real world xenophobia so that people don't start "interpreting" it as non-xenophobia. The parallels are there. In Citadel space, distrust of aliens is not halal obviously, especially since humans are the minority in this case. Ergo it's an extreme political position.
I believe Ashley has a line in the first game where she questions Shepherd's decision to give Tali access to the engine room, being concerned that Tali might attempt to steal the new technology.
And then in the second game it's revealed that Tali did steal the plans to give to her race.

Ho, fuck, I forgot about this one. :lol:

In general, all of Ashley's views and fears that Bioware's writers tried to pass off as unfounded, irrational, bigoted or what have you, turned out to be 100% justified.... by Bioware's own writing and plot development. In fact, the only time she has an opinion that the game shows us is objectively wrong is when she thinks Shepard is still working with Cerberus in ME3.

I legit can't tell if the writers were making some tongue-in-cheek commentary by doing this, or if they were as utterly void of any semblance of self-awareness as Lacrymas is.

:philosoraptor:
Ashley thought Garrus or Wrex would steal technology, not Tali. What is irrational in this case is the Normandy was created as a joint operation between humans and Turians. Turians gain no new knowledge by stealing their own designs, so this was a pure case of irrational paranoia from Ashley because they are aliens. If you retort with "but she was justified because Tali", that's not how any of this works. It's like distrusting *all* white men because John Wayne Gacy turned out to be a bad egg.
 
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Lacrymas

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In Citadel space, distrust of aliens is not halal obviously
What? Distrust is the default in a political setting.
But the Normandy is not a political setting, Ashley isn't an ambassador and it's not a court. Also, "distrust" is not the best word to use here. "Bug-eyed monsters" seems like a deeper rooted belief. Calling gays (for example) "disgusting perverts" is not an issue of distrust.
 

NJClaw

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The events of ME1 happen something like 30 years after an alien race tried to delete humans from the universe because they were unknowingly violating random space laws. No trial, no appeal, no anything.

"Oh, you didn't obey some laws you didn't even know existed? Time for your entire species to die, I guess."

Not trusting ALIENS after only 30 years passed from that doesn't sound so unreasonable to me. Especially considering that we as a species still don't trust GERMANS after 80 years.

"Bug-eyed monsters" seems like a deeper rooted belief.
Her entire family fought aliens for generations. Her father fought aliens, her brothers fought aliens, she fought aliens. Of course you're going to have deeper rooted beliefs against the enemy you've been fighting for your entire life.

The hill is never lonely, it's just that only the same kinds of people argue with me on stuff like this. Nobody sane is going to get dragged into these conversations.
I feel the need to point out that I almost never disagree with you on anything, but this time it seems like you're completely decontextualizing her character. Yes, she is racist. No, she is not an extremist. She actively despises extremist organizations and becomes friend with the entire crew as soon as they prove their loyalty.
 
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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
The Asari were responsible for integrating humans in Citadel space and politics, and ending the war with the Turians. Yet she also distrusts Liara. The main issue is that, like I said, she is correct not to blindly trust them in matter of politics, but she transfers that to her own allies on the ship.
 

Lacrymas

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Her entire family fought aliens for generations. Her father fought aliens, her brothers fought aliens, she fought aliens. Of course you're going to have deeper rooted beliefs against the enemy you've been fighting for your entire life.
Like I said, it's not an issue of whether she is correct or wrong. This whole thing started with me saying you don't want extremists as partners because they will get you in trouble or castrate you when they flip out. You don't know when her "deeply rooted beliefs"/"strong opinions"/"concerns about aliens" will land her in jail and drag you down with her. Humans are a minority in this setting, so Ashley antagonizing the other species, or perpetrating sedition, or even organizing race riots will definitely lead to trouble.
 

NJClaw

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The Asari were responsible for integrating humans in Citadel space and politics, and ending the war with the Turians. Yet she also distrusts Liara. The main issue is that, like I said, she is correct not to blindly trust them in matter of politics, but she transfers that to her own allies on the ship.
Come on, she distrusts Liara because they both want your peepee in their poopoo.
 

Nano

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Yet she also distrusts Liara.
The enemy's daughter is digging into the mind of Ashley's commander just shortly after she's recruited. Yes, surely Ash is only distrustful of her because of her head tentacles.
 

Lacrymas

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Come on, she distrusts Liara because they both want your peepee in their poopoo.
This is simply the continuation of a pattern. You say it's because she's jealous, Nano says Liara is digging into Shepard's mind. You can always find justifications to distrust virtually everyone, yet it's only Ashley who does this constantly and only with members of other species. She also uses species-based language to refer to aliens in derogatory contexts.
 

Lokiamis

Savant
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Messages
193
"You want to get involved with some alien (black person)? Go ahead, it's none of my business."
"Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters (flaming queers)"
"I am no fan of aliens (Jews)."
"Jealous? Of you? You are not even our species (not even white)."
What is this you have in parentheses there?

Is that like, your interpretation, man? You seeing oppression and victims everywhere you look, races and faggots behind every word? And you call Ashley racist and xenophobic?

My god.
That was to connect it to some real world xenophobia so that people don't start "interpreting" it as non-xenophobia. The parallels are there. In Citadel space, distrust of aliens is not halal obviously, especially since humans are the minority in this case. Ergo it's an extreme political position.
I believe Ashley has a line in the first game where she questions Shepherd's decision to give Tali access to the engine room, being concerned that Tali might attempt to steal the new technology.
And then in the second game it's revealed that Tali did steal the plans to give to her race.

Ho, fuck, I forgot about this one. :lol:

In general, all of Ashley's views and fears that Bioware's writers tried to pass off as unfounded, irrational, bigoted or what have you, turned out to be 100% justified.... by Bioware's own writing and plot development. In fact, the only time she has an opinion that the game shows us is objectively wrong is when she thinks Shepard is still working with Cerberus in ME3.

I legit can't tell if the writers were making some tongue-in-cheek commentary by doing this, or if they were as utterly void of any semblance of self-awareness as Lacrymas is.

:philosoraptor:
Ashley thought Garrus or Wrex would steal technology, not Tali. What is irrational in this case is the Normandy was created as a joint operation between humans and Turians. Turians gain no new knowledge by stealing their own designs, so this was a pure case of irrational paranoia from Ashley because they are aliens. If you retort with "but she was justified because Tali", that's not how any of this works. It's like distrusting *all* white men because John Wayne Gacy turned out to be a bad egg.

Co-developed by humans and turians, but so what? You're the one painting all members of a species with the same brush now.

Garrus was a cop working for the council until he quit to be able to kill people he was pretty sure were guilty without having to deal with paperwork. He's a real extremist, it's just glossed over because he's cool and friendly towards Shepherd.

Imagine an alternative universe where the Normandy was still co-developed but in the hands of Turian special ops. I bet you'd find it very reasonable if one of their crewmen took issue with letting random ex-millitary, more recently ex-disgruntled-cop humans into the Chamber of Highly Classified Military Secrets. What if they had connections to Cerberus? Or any other unsavory organization. It's not like all humans are loyal to the Alliance Fleet.

And honestly, you wouldn't even give every HUMAN access to engineering/wherever the good shit is. It's not their fucking job to be there.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
But if you are arguing Garrus would steal technology for personal gain or something similar, as opposed to giving that to the Turians in the political sense, then it's no longer about "concerns about alien politics". And yes, you should also not let every human everywhere, but she doesn't mention that at all.
 

ekrolo2

Scholar
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Jun 8, 2019
Messages
202
Ashley spends all of 2 and 3 hating Cerberus' guts for going too far, outright calling them extremists, to the point she and Shepard can butt heads over it and can end up killing her because she's certain Shepard isn't on the up and up. For valid reasons because we know Miranda wanted to fuck with their mind during Lazarus, Cerberus has just turned most of their fighting force into Husks and we end up fighting an evil clone in Citadel.

But, if you play the coup right, Ashley realizes she's wrong about Shepard, apologizes and even requests to return to the Normandy. This instance alone shows us that she can be pig headed but also realize her mistakes when it becomes necessary.

In ME1 she agrees to keep her issues with aliens a private thing and out of the field, because she's a goddamn professional who listens if her CO tells her not to let it interfere. Her shooting Wrex? Wrex is THE most renegade party member in 1, a jadded bitter asshole who's solution is to kill and eat everything. The friendly Krogan shtick with him isn't a thing until the sequels. When a guy like that pulls a gun on your team leader, regardless of species, you have good reason to do the same and open fire.

Her issues with Liara? She's Benezia's daughter, who's the dragon to Saren. Unfair? Sure but Ashley is far from the first or last person anywhere in any setting or real life to give someone shit for family ties alone. Besides, later interactions with the crew show us she got over it and many squad mates express relief and joy that she's back on the Normandy in 3. If Ashley was really some Cerberus in waiting type character, none of this goodwill would exist.

But what is all this pesky proof when it's easier to just meme her as the racist one and be done with it.
 

MicoSelva

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Do as my friend - romance the hell out of Ashley thought whole ME1 and then left her on Virmire.

Yeah, and the person she is speaking of and that did this was MicoSelva - cold-blooded bastard.
Lies. I never romanced Ashley. Blue-skinned space babes 4 life... Well, for life... Or you know... Until they are too busy, then whoever is female, hot and available.
 

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