Mature and rational discussion re: itemization in Pillars of Eternity

[hiver]

That not rapid flip-floping. Its earning your keep.
And so far, you only complained about how expensive best weapons are and how you dont have money to buy them. So turning that into complaining about "flip-floping" of that stuff becoming available later on is in fact flip-floping.

oh, and im not attacking you personally or "defending a game".
just calling things as they are.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Well, I've restarted twice, so I may not have found the money faucet yet, which from what I'm hearing means exploring more of Od Nua.

Currently I'm clearing Raedric's Hold on Hard with a level 4 party of 5, head-on. All these armors and weapons and shit will net several thousand or so, so that's something.

I've never had money problems per se, I just rarely feel comfortable outright purchasing a weapon that costs five thousand judengilde when I've managed to earn barely more than that scouring each area and sidequest on the way to the first hub.

The money faucet is killing everyone and lockpicking/opening everything (including stuff found in scout mode) then emptying all that stash junk in the first vendor you find, ain't much more to it, might as well kill all those cringeworthy backer NPCs that don't net you a reputation loss and sell their stuff as well. I kinda have the opposite problem at the moment, I'm sitting on around 50000 in chapter 2 but I have nothing to spend it on except Stronghold (which is a decent money sink), rare components or level bar me from further enchanting my gear and vendors I've come across rarely have stuff that interest me.

 

[Perkel]

Yeah CN is decent money sink.
As for itemization. lvl 7 currently.

I agree with most people that itemization is a little borish. It certainly is because of crafting system.

Idea is that unique weapon/armor gives you some unique skill and you take that item and customize it to your character instead of it being only for x type of character.

In theory you can take some starting unique like that flail with endurance leach from Gilded Veil and upgrade it along journey so that it will last you way longer than normally. But at the same time it takes away wow factor from finding good loot.

Another thing is that PoE seems to be low level campaign. If you compare it to for example BG1 items it is way better in that regard though i would love to see more rings, capes, boots, gloves etc.

Enchantment system is step up from DnD3.5 which made most of unique shit. At least here you can't make some of those uniques properties.

 

[Immortal]

One quibble I've yet to see mentioned (or at least explored in-depth) is how dry, regimented, uniform, and just overall utterly predictable the itemization can be in this game.

I have been bitching about this in almost every thread. The combatXP and Itemization have made my vagina very sandy and it's really hurting my enjoyment of this game. I feel no need or excitement dungeon crawling or going off the beaten patch. What's the point? I don't need gold or more exceptional maces or lion assholes..

So as sawyer said, If you don't enjoy stealthing past creatures, fighting them or talking to them, don't play our game. Why should we need to incentivize you to play our game.

Why would anyone need incentives to attain challenges in a RPG, You are so right Josh!
You fucking moron.

 

[Dexter]

I agree with the itemization, there seem to be only the three gradual item quality levels: Fine, Exceptional and Superb that you will find as you Level up with Boni doing Burning/Freezing/Electric/Corrosive damage and a special ability, as well as some minor non-craftable attributes. No Lilarcor, Dragon Scale armors, Carsomyr, Flail of Ages, The Ravager, The Equalizer, “Big Metal Unit”, “Boots of Speed” (they were game-changing for the char wearing them in BG, something tells me PoEs +3 Movement Speed doesn’t have the same effect) or similarly interesting or unique items (or the ability to get “improved” items at an early time like Frostbrand by killing the Drow) with some creative use here. There’s often not even a point in buying a item from vendors, can just Enchant the same weapon one found at the beginning of the game from “Fine” to “Exceptional” to “Superior” for likely lower cost. Maybe in the sequel? It reminds me of the really shitty Crafting/Enchantment system in NWN2 that had similar downsides with it being utterly boring and forgettable and making itemization seem the same.

It's as if someone went with the Toothbrush of Blandness through the game and its most important systems. A lot of stuff, including world building, writing, itemization, combat, leveling up etc. are somewhat competently done, I can’t complain too much, but not much else. I can't exactly praise any of it and have to offset it against the joy it brings me to have a game like this at all again after 13 years.

The most "elegantly designed RPG of all time" following in the foot steps of giants In the name of popamole balance, of course

Having things like Sets or Sockets would actually incline the itemizations somewhat... as it is it's one of the many things that are just... boring.

Also, some items are extremely rare. I'm at the end-game, doing a completionist run, and I found like 8 magical belts and 7 magical helmets. That's it. Éder is still using a pimp feathered hat, because I found nothing better for him to use. Meanwhile, there are four billion magical cloaks and necklaces. Same thing with weapons. Found many unique sabers, swords and rapiers, but not a single goddamn pike so far...

I found that if you leave an area and come back later you might get different loot. It’s not really “hand-placed”. Afaik I first unlocked the trapped chests in the Temple of Eothas to see what’s inside, but reloaded and came back a few levels later and they had different items in them e.g. where I found an amulet or a ring I had a cloak or similar instead, although if you open them and reload immediately it’s just the same.

 

[Immortal]

I agree with the itemization, there seem to be only the three gradual item quality levels: Fine, Exceptional and Superb that you will find as you Level up with Boni doing Burning/Freezing/Electric/Corrosive damage and a special ability, as well as some minor non-craftable attributes. No Lilarcor, Dragon Scale armors, Carsomyr, Flail of Ages, The Ravager, The Equalizer, “Big Metal Unit”, “Boots of Speed” (they were game-changing for the char wearing them in BG, something tells me PoEs +3 Movement Speed doesn’t have the same effect) or similarly interesting or unique items (or the ability to get “improved” items at an early time like Frostbrand by killing the Drow) with some creative use here. There’s often not even a point in buying a item from vendors, can just Enchant the same weapon one found at the beginning of the game from “Fine” to “Exceptional” to “Superior” for likely lower cost. Maybe in the sequel? It reminds me of the really shitty Crafting/Enchantment system in NWN2 that had similar downsides with it being utterly boring and forgettable and making itemization seem the same.

It's as if someone went with the Toothbrush of Blandness through the game and its most important systems. A lot of stuff, including world building, writing, itemization, combat, leveling up etc. are somewhat competently done, I can’t complain too much, but not much else. I can't exactly praise any of it and have to offset it against the joy it brings me to have a game like this at all again after 13 years.

The most "elegantly designed RPG of all time" following in the foot steps of giants In the name of popamole balance, of course

Having things like Sets or Sockets would actually incline the itemizations somewhat... as it is it's one of the many things that are just... boring.

Also, some items are extremely rare. I'm at the end-game, doing a completionist run, and I found like 8 magical belts and 7 magical helmets. That's it. Éder is still using a pimp feathered hat, because I found nothing better for him to use. Meanwhile, there are four billion magical cloaks and necklaces. Same thing with weapons. Found many unique sabers, swords and rapiers, but not a single goddamn pike so far...

I found that if you leave an area and come back later you might get different loot. It’s not really “hand-placed”. Afaik I first unlocked the trapped chests in the Temple of Eothas to see what’s inside, but reloaded and came back a few levels later and they had different items in them e.g. where I found an amulet or a ring I had a cloak or similar instead, although if you open them and reload immediately it’s just the same.

There are boots of speed, However your point still stands and I agree with it. Even just enemies in general never drop interesting or unique items because Obsidian is worried that we would miss out on those items if we Talked our wait out of the situation or stealthed past..

Spoiler

In the secret room of that sacrificial temple place in Dyrewood

 

[Reapa]

I'm very butthurt that it took me almost 30 hours to get a loading screen tip telling me that bonuses from equipment don't stack. Having a +3 Might Glove and a +1 Might Helmet makes the game ignore the helmet. But weapon & shields are an exception, you can have a +3 Might Glove and a +2 Might Sword and get +5 Might.

Also, some items are extremely rare. I'm at the end-game, doing a completionist run, and I found like 8 magical belts and 7 magical helmets. That's it. Éder is still using a pimp feathered hat, because I found nothing better for him to use. Meanwhile, there are four billion magical cloaks and necklaces. Same thing with weapons. Found many unique sabers, swords and rapiers, but not a single goddamn pike so far...

rng rules and it shouldn't. rpgs are supposed to have hand placed loot. nobody is gonna fucking play the game all over again in hope of finding better equipment but the purpose of this game is to sell, not to impress.
the writing is mediocre at best. some of it is just plain "shit". (there's a piece of paper where the word shit is used to describe some plan or something like: "i knew the plan will turn out to be shit.") I am not a writer and I'm not much of a reader but i'm pretty sure i could come up with a few different words to describe a plan that would feel more appropriate, less lazy and more accurate without having to get paid for it. it is also overly descriptive at times and dialogue options are 1 liners. this contrast feels broken and again lazy. how can something overly descriptive be lazy? quite simple: describing a tree is far easier than creating a conversation between the player and an npc which would need a subject, research or creativity on the subject, motivation, personality and so on... i did the keep but didn't finish the quest. i just had no motive and none was given to kill either redick nor the other one (can't remeber name and saves lost due to faulty system upgrade)
throughout the game there is only one pattern: laziness. they wanted to sell something but they didn't want to do it. the whole bullshit about balance is just an excuse for the simple, thoughtless design. as OP already mentioned everything is designed systematically and repetitive. such mechanics can be done in a day by one person. any person. any idiot. given enough time a group of monkeys with typewriters could produce shakespear. maybe devs didn't get enough time. the game is more a spiritual successor to wow than to bg2. hunter with pet ftw!
well maybe spiritual predecessor since wow actually has a stronghold that not only matters but is quite fun to play.

 

[Agame]

Most of it was this harebrained quest for perfect balance with absolutely no cheesing and nothing shitty, nothing too powerful, everything's got to be as good as (interchangeable with) everything else.

There is a lot about the underlying mechanics of this game, equipment, spells etc. that remind me of Diablo 3 (I may be lynch mobbed for mentioning that game on here?) which is in a continuous state of "balancing" and nerfing to make sure no one can ever be to powerful... Because heaven forbid that I would play an RPG with the goal of having a character that feels overpowered and strong, obviously my only motivation in playing a game is that everyone else is exactly the same as me and we are all equal in our mundanity. This style of "Everything must be Balanced" becomes even more ludicrous in a single player game like PoE.

 

[Reapa]

I'm at the end-game, doing a completionist run, and I found like 8 magical belts and 7 magical helmets.

Baldur's Gate 1 legacy is strong in this one.

Most games have limited selection of the more 'exotic' item types like belts or gloves, because it is hard for designers to come up with interesting items overall. At least in the case of weapons they can always stick +accuracy +damage on them and call it a day.

There are some unique items (and interesting ones too - like Larder Door), but they are few and far between. To be honest, I actually prefer it that way - especially for lower level gameplay. However, it would be nice, if their abilities had some more organic descrpitions instead of the laundry list of features - but I do not like how ability/spell descriptions are handled in this game overall, they are hard to read and understand at a first glance.

I am more butthurt about helmets doing nothing at all, unless they are magical. I have the same issue with D&D 3+ and pathfinder. Would helmets providing additional DR or converting a % of enemy crits to hits unbalance the game too much? Could it not be fixed with giving them some negative effects too (like minus perception)?

Similar thing with cloaks, by the way. With such a granular 100-point to-hit system, they could afford to make them grant +1 deflection or something. Anything, really.

It would be nice if pets also gave you some small benefits, like maybe +1 perception (dog) etc. I do not see the point of making them purely cosmetic - is this an MMO thing? Even my wife commented on the dog being completely pointless when she learned it does not do anything except run around.

I really like the game overall, but there are some annoying things that seem reall easy to fix at a first glance - and this is as annoying as it always tends to be.

i'm actually glad they didn't go full retard on the pets like also copying pet battles from wow but 1vs1 instead of 3vs3 cause... you know... low budget...

 

[Reapa]

I'm not really feeling the loot in the game. It doesn't help that there are tons of vendors just selling all this gear which cheapens the whole experience. "check out my stock of old swords including Glamdring and Orcrist. Half off this week"

A staple of the IE-games though.

A staple of add-ons to IE games. BG1 was very tame in that regard. IWD1 was also very much so before HoW added to same smith a shitton of imba items. BG2 was high level D&D, they still ruined it with special edition Deirdre-trader.

In comparison PoE just drowns in endless pile of mediocre arms and armor.
And unlike IE games, NOTHING is special. Nothing. Even the blade you forge from Mega Dungeon is just a Superb Estoc with a speed bonus.
bleah

i was gonna start over after the faulty system upgrade destroyed my saves but now i'm not sure...

 

[Ninjerk]

Immortal Did you find any boots of speed before

Spoiler

the last area?

 

[Perkel]

Overall for me:
BG2 loot > PoE loot > BG1 loot > NWN1&2 loot

Game on many fronts feels like step up from D&D3.5 shitty mechanics but not free from them completely.
NWN2 enchanting mechanic made every unique shit since you could do it yourself.
Never tried yet special uniques that are assembled from parts though.

I think that enchanting yourself to fine/exceptional/superb is a bit detrimental to progression mechanics and it kind of takes away from finding good gear.

I would change it this way:

- Made each enchantment weaker than native one. For example instead of Fine enchantment giving you +4 and 1.15 damage something like +2 and 1.08.
- Leave accuracy and damaging almost unchanged. From 4 to 3 and damage from 1.15 to 1.13. This way you could specialize weapons instead slaping Fine/except/superb on them.
- Completely remove vs damage. It should belong to unique items not as enchantment. It is to easy to get vs kith which makes almost any unique useless
- Add small spells at very high cost. So for example you can get mirror image spell on sword but you need to shell out 4k + some ingredients.

In other word make enchantment a boost for weapon not main thing.

As for uniques themselves i am yet to finish game but so far some of them are interesting.

 

[KK1001]

Yeah, I have gotten the impression that most of the rare weapons and armor are...held by innkeepers.

 

[Ellef]

Not sure how the hand placed loot and unique items of BG1 could be worse than POE but hey..

 

[Kaldurenik]

I would like to see unique (named) items have a different background color to normal magical items. Mainly due to the fact that later in the game you pick up 100's of "blue" items.

 

[Perkel]

I would like to see unique (named) items have a different background color to normal magical items. Mainly due to the fact that later in the game you pick up 100's of "blue" items.

Honestly that is problem with art and stash.

Art.
Because every unique item looks the same in UI. Take for example BG2 and you could easily see which flais is unique and which is not.
I think not background color but weapon color would be better same as in BG1/2 where different enchantments had different colors of weapons.

Stash.
Because is endless. Even with rest mechanic you can loot esentially everything and soon you have problem where you have too much shitty loot to look for your uniques. Honestly i want mod that will remove storing weapons and armor in stash. It should be only for crafting materials and game should have bags and pouches, scrolls storages etc like in BG2. This way you know where everything is.

Without endless stash you would need to choose which item to take instead of looting everything without looking.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

PoE loot > BG1 loot

Don't see this so far. Sure, it's similar when it comes to weapons (though they're rarer in BG, you can't craft them and I still find unique ones like Spider Bane or Staff of Striking more interesting) but when it comes to other gear nothing I encountered in PoE feels as unique, interesting and/or game-changingly powerful like gauntlets of dexterity and ogre power, ring of wizardry, Algernon cloak, boots of speed, ring of free action, Balduran's helm, boots of avoidance etc.

It's even worse considering that PoE doesn't feel as low level as BG to me, by level 6-7 I feel roughly as powerful as I did at level 12 in BG2 or something.

 

[Ninjerk]

I'd really just love to have a little colored dot in the corner of unique magical weapons so I don't have to hover over every "Fine" weapon and armor before I find something that's definitely worth wearing.

 

[DrowningHarvey]

I'd really just love to have a little colored dot in the corner of unique magical weapons so I don't have to hover over every "Fine" weapon and armor before I find something that's definitely worth wearing.

Yes please! Item management got really tedious when game progressed. At mid game I decided that the stuff I already had was most likely about as good as any item that I might encounter in the future, and lost interest in weapons and armor (no point in hauling it to the shopkeepers either when murderlooting Raedric's hold had solved all money issues). Might have missed some unique items, but I doubt they would have been worth going all that junk.

 

[Blaine]

Speaking of piles of useless crap, are the hundreds of Xaurip shields and spears I sell just going to garbage up shop inventories for the rest of eternity, or...?

 

[Ninjerk]

Speaking of piles of useless crap, are the hundreds of Xaurip shields and spears I sell just going to garbage up shop inventories for the rest of eternity, or...?

Inventory of Eternity

Spoiler

yes

 

[Blaine]

Great.

Can't imagine where some of that save file bloat must come from.

 

[Ninjerk]

I should probably double check, though.

EDIT: Looks that way.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

The big source of save file bloat is the chanter's rime and frost trail spell. All the traps it creates, despite being temporary, permanently become part of the save file, which makes for killer load times.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/73...ing-mobileobjectssave-to-grow-out-of-control/

 

[Shaewaroz]

I can't believe how terrible the loot is in this game. And everytime I pick up 10 leather armors and toss them into my stash, a small part of me dies in agony.