Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Incline MENACE - sci-fi turn-based tactical RPG from Battle Brothers devs

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
7,790
I thought codex already reached a contentious consensus regarding this?

Battle Brothers is a tactical RPG. If it was japanese it would be a strategic RPG.

Elden Ring is a japanese ARPG.

Games based off western tabletop systems such as Baldur's Gate 3 (love it or hate it) are cRPGs.
 

Shaki

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
1,710
Location
Hyperborea
Sure, it still doesn't change the fact that BB is 10x more of an RPG [...]
I love Battle Brothers, but I always considered it to be a tactical game with RPG elements (strong RPG elements to be sure, but still elements, rather than something that lies at its core) and not a fully-fledged RPG. Saying otherwise opens up a can of worms where ANY tactical game with RPG elements can be called an RPG.

than games like Disco Elysium or Elden Ring which somehow won Codex GOTY. Every single gamer seems to have his own retarded definition of what is an "RPG" these days, and it usually comes down to "games I liked are RPG, games I didn't aren't RPG".
Elden Ring is considered by the mainstream to be an RPG exactly because it has "RPG elements". That's the problem.

Disco Elysium, on the other hand, doesn't just have RPG elements. It is an RPG. It is based off a tabletop and the core elements of PnP are the foundations of its mechanics. You may dislike how heavily it leans into narrative driven aspect of it, but you have Planescape: Torment to blame for this as it paved the way for this kind of gameplay (and, honestly, it is not all bad, provided you can get good writers). Frankly, when looking back it would be difficult to find a game that is more of an RPG than Disco Elysium.

The only thing Disco Elysium doesn't have is "tactical combat", but then you can always find people who say that in RPGs such as Arcanum, Fallout or Planescape: Torment combat is shit (with Fallout probably being a minority opinion. Less so with Arcanum and Planescape, where such voices are much more common), so it begs the question whether having shit combat is really a sensible requirement.

I'll stick to mine, because it at least makes some sense and filters trash from the label very well.
So it's pretty much "games I liked are RPG, games I didn't aren't RPG"?

As I said, RPGs are rooted in wargaming, turn based combat is pretty much the core of the genre and everything else is just a supporting element. The fact that generation of RtwP games with combat based on Diablo bastardized the genre and destroyed its perception in mainstream, doesn't change the fact. RPG = mini wargame focused more on small scale turn based combat and individual character management, with narrative element provided to put fights in context and make them feel better. That's it, that's RPG.

Elden Ring is an action game, Disco is an adventure game/visual novel. BB is an actual, proper RPG. Not all tactical games are RPGs, but all RPGs are tactical games.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,413
As I said, RPGs are rooted in wargaming, turn based combat is pretty much the core of the genre and everything else is just a supporting element. The fact that generation of RtwP games with combat based on Diablo bastardized the genre and destroyed its perception in mainstream, doesn't change the fact.
I think you're mixing up a few things:

1) RPGs are rooted in wargaming (turn-based combat). However, this is not true for PnP RPGs. There is a bit of a difference between Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens, even though both are part of the same evolutionary stage.

2) I don't think that "RtwP games with combat based on Diablo" were the reason that your kind of perception ("tactical games are RPGs") was destroyed in mainstream. Especially considering the classics such as Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate series (which are pretty much the epitome of "tactical games are RPGs").

3) If anything, Diablo is yet another example of "X with RPG elements". I could make an argument that if you have to define your game by using another genre as a prefix instead of using RPG as a defining category of it, then its place as an RPG is questionable to begin with.

RPG = mini wargame focused more on small scale turn based combat and individual character management, with narrative element provided to put fights in context and make them feel better. That's it, that's RPG.
Is it though? Isn't it a tactical game with RPG elements? Which then gave birth to a completely different genre (RPGs, instead of wargames/tactical games with RPG elements)? I would say that there is a need to define when something is a "tactical game with RPG elements" and when it's an "RPG with tactics".

Elden Ring is an action game
Sure. It is an action game with RPG elements.

Disco is an adventure game/visual novel.
So is Planescape: Torment then. A top RPG of the Codex for ages. What more needs to be said?

BB is an actual, proper RPG. Not all tactical games are RPGs, but all RPGs are tactical games.
A questionable statement. Vampire: The Masquerade is undeniably an RPG, but it is not a tactical game, even though it has combat.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,842
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
So games where you can make new characters at the tavern whenever you want aren't RPGs? Quick yes or no will do.
Obviously no (as in yes, they are RPGs).
OK, bear with me. Three more questions. Again quick yes/no will do.

Question #1: If, at the inn for a game like those discussed above, you can press T to (T)ELL THE MINSTREL OF YOUR DEEDS (i.e. save your game), is that still an RPG?

maxresdefault.jpg
 
Last edited:

Shaki

Arbiter
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
1,710
Location
Hyperborea
I think you're mixing up a few things:

1) RPGs are rooted in wargaming (turn-based combat). However, this is not true for PnP RPGs. There is a bit of a difference between Homo Erectus and Homo Sapiens, even though both are part of the same evolutionary stage.
Yes. Wargames are Homo Erectus in this analogy. RPGs are Homo Sapiens. People pointing at a chimp and saying "Akshually this is real Homo Sapiens" would be the equivalent of people saying games without turn based combat can be RPGs.

2) I don't think that "RtwP games with combat based on Diablo" were the reason that your kind of perception ("tactical games are RPGs") was destroyed in mainstream. Especially considering the classics such as Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate series (which are pretty much the epitome of "tactical games are RPGs").

BG and IWD had nothing to do with "tactical", they were extremely easy and cheesable, and could be played like an action game. In BG1 you could completely trivialize all the "RPG elements" and play it fully like an action game by abusing boots of speed which AI completely can't handle. All RtwP games have similar "exploits" rooted in their system. The whole reason RtwP exists, was because publishers had a hard on for Diablo, and it was impossible to convince them of funding an isometric game without similarly looking combat. Infinity Engine games' devs did the best they could under the circumstances, it was either making a bastardization of RPGs or not making anything, but
this doesn't change the fact it was a major step towards decline and destruction of what "RPG" meant.


3) If anything, Diablo is yet another example of "X with RPG elements". I could make an argument that if you have to define your game by using another genre as a prefix instead of using RPG as a defining category of it, then its place as an RPG is questionable to begin with.

It's the same as using RPG's as a prefix for Hack'n'slash games like Diablo. Hack'n'slash genre is deeply rooted in RPGs character management, it's basically RPG-lite with action oriented combat. It's impossible to talk about what Hack'n'slash is and what's its history, without referencing RPGs, despite it being a separate genre. Just like you can't talk about RPGs, without wargaming. The only difference is, thanks to H'n'S massive populartiy, it circled back and started influencing the RPG genre too, into adopting less tactical and more action oriented combat, blurring the lines between the genres in mainstream perception, while Wargaming stayed firmly separate.


Is it though? Isn't it a tactical game with RPG elements? Which then gave birth to a completely different genre (RPGs, instead of wargames/tactical games with RPG elements)?

How something could be "tactical game with RPG elements", before RPG genre existed? What you call "tactical game with RPG elements" is just RPG. When people took some RPG elements from it, and abandoned the core of the genre (turn based combat), there should be a new subgenre name created for it, but instead they just still called it RPG, which is the root of our current problem. Later it happened more times, with different devs removing more and more core elements of the genre while still calling it RPG, until the label lost any meaning. You can pick any iteration of the term, any game that has any "RPG elements", and call it "RPG" if you want, and it's equally valid. Except for the original iteration, what you call "tactical game with RPG elements" - it's the only one that is more valid, because it was first.

I would say that there is a need to define when something is a "tactical game with RPG elements" and when it's an "RPG with tactics".


Both are RPG. As long as it has stat based turn based combat, proper character management and narrative element to provide context and make you care about combat, it's RPG. You can add more or less of either element, you can add different elements, but as long as it has these core ones, it's just different flavours of RPG. Removing any of the core elements, should result in putting the game in different existing genre, or if other genres also don't fit well, creating a new subgenre or treating it as a fusion of genres (x with rpg elements).

So is Planescape: Torment then. A top RPG of the Codex for ages. What more needs to be said?

PS:T is closer to RPG than Disco, but it's still more of an adventure game/visual novel than proper RPG, and it should be in the "x with RPG elements" category. Just like majority of what people consider "RPG".


A questionable statement. Vampire: The Masquerade is undeniably an RPG, but it is not a tactical game, even though it has combat.

Same as above, it's an action game with RPG elements.

Of course, putting it in this category, doesn't really seem accurate, just like saying Torment is adventure game with RPG elements doesn't seem accurate since these categories will also contain many games which are much further away from RPGs. But calling them just RPGs also isn't accurate. There is no perfect solution, but I'd rather stick to the original meaning of RPG, than go mad debating which one of the next 1000 iterations can still be called RPG, and when it finally stops being one.
 

Abu Antar

Turn-based Poster
Patron
Joined
Jan 19, 2014
Messages
14,186
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I read that the world is procedurally generated, so not a set in stone world for each run.
 

goregasm

Scholar
Joined
Aug 19, 2016
Messages
200
I can dig it, and have hope for it. I'm an old acquaintance with Tim, the guy who started Hooded Horse from our Warband/VC modding days, so if I get any juicy info I will pass it along.

That said he is publishing a fuck ton of games now and while he hasn't gone Hollywood, he definitely has to protect his business.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,413
Yes. Wargames are Homo Erectus in this analogy. RPGs are Homo Sapiens. People pointing at a chimp and saying "Akshually this is real Homo Sapiens" would be the equivalent of people saying games without turn based combat can be RPGs.
I simply went by chronology only (and focusing on both being part of the same stage), without trying to make one appear more "noble". Not sure why you went in so deep in trying to analyse the analogy when there is little point to do so, but I am cool with that, because people's opinion on which is Homo Sapiens in this analogy is completely irrelevant to me.

BG and IWD had nothing to do with "tactical", they were extremely easy and cheesable, and could be played like an action game.
Bullshit. You may find them extremely easy and cheesable (like a lot of games), but they are tactical in nature. Trying to say that they "could be played like an action game" is a very stupid thing to say when there is literally no hand-eye coordination and reaction time (because of real-time with pause). It's not hack'n'slash so attempt to compare them to Diablo is an idea I am not going to take seriously. You could do much better by comparing that kind of playstyle with an RTS (Warcraft III comes to mind), but that would only reinforce the tactical element you're trying to deny for some reason.

It's the same as using RPG's as a prefix for Hack'n'slash games like Diablo.
Sure? You won't get an argument from me on that. I always saw Diablo as hack'n'slash with some light RPG elements, not a real RPG. I could buy an argument that Diablo was precursor of action games with RPG elements, because it is a proto-action game with RPG elements.

How something could be "tactical game with RPG elements", before RPG genre existed?
Eh, I knew I should've phrased it differently. "Tactical game with individual characteristics".

What you call "tactical game with RPG elements" is just RPG.
Except for the "tactical" part.

When people took some RPG elements from it, and abandoned the core of the genre (turn based combat), there should be a new subgenre name created for it, but instead they just still called it RPG, which is the root of our current problem.
I can agree with this much (I also fixed it a bit by crossing out turn-based combat as being the core of the genre. I think you can have an RPG that isn't turn-based nor is squad-based or tactical).

Except for the original iteration, what you call "tactical game with RPG elements" - it's the only one that is more valid, because it was first.
Again, this completely ignores the difference between "a wargame with stats" (a modified wargame) and "playing as literal characters in the in-game world" (PnP/tabletop RPG). The latter means a little bit more than having stats, because as a player you're supposed to be a very specific character.

Both are RPG. As long as it has stat based turn based combat, proper character management and narrative element to provide context and make you care about combat, it's RPG.
Eh, I disagree. To me The Battle for Wesnoth is not an RPG, although it very much is "tactical game with RPG elements" (if you consider stats "RPG elements"). "RPG with tactics"? This is much easier to sell as an RPG. Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate are very good examples (even though they can be light on RPG aspects at times).

PS:T is closer to RPG than Disco
They are pretty much the same in terms of style (sans shitty combat).

Same as above, it's an action game with RPG elements.

Of course, putting it in this category, doesn't really seem accurate, just like saying Torment is adventure game with RPG elements doesn't seem accurate since these categories will also contain many games which are much further away from RPGs. But calling them just RPGs also isn't accurate. There is no perfect solution, but I'd rather stick to the original meaning of RPG, than go mad debating which one of the next 1000 iterations can still be called RPG, and when it finally stops being one.
Huh.

I mean, it is literally a "DnD tabletop game" set in a tabletop setting - again, exactly like all the other Infinity Engine games - and plays exactly the same way in terms of controls. The main difference is it puts heavy emphasis on story/reading/interactions and has the shittiest combat of them all. It is a hard sell to consider other Infinity Engine games RPGs, but not this one. Also, I have to laugh at the suggestion this is "an action game". :lol:
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
18,215
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I read that the world is procedurally generated, so not a set in stone world for each run.
I have a feeling it will work like Battle Brothers narrative-wise. Lots of fluff writing, without any set storyline except for the supposed threat.
 

Alienman

Retro-Fascist
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
18,215
Location
Mars
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I read that the world is procedurally generated, so not a set in stone world for each run.
I have a feeling it will work like Battle Brothers narrative-wise. Lots of fluff writing, without any set storyline except for the supposed threat.
All I got is this.

Yeah, I made my assumption from the information on the Steam page. How they talk about squad leaders with different backgrounds and such (like the backgrounds of the mercs in BB) and then that the game will have procedurally generated missions and battle maps. Seems very similar in design to me.
 

Kruyurk

Learned
Joined
Nov 16, 2021
Messages
486
There needs to be a containment thread for the endless "Is dis an RPG!? " debates:deadhorse:
There should be a questionnaire when you create your Codex account asking if you know the correct definition of an RPG. Upon acceptance you will feel like one of the few elect, but in reality there would be no correct or wrong answers; you would be sent to one of the infinity of alternate versions of RPG Codex with all the retards that answered as you did. These different flavors of retards would of course have no idea that alternate versions of the site exist. If at some point new controversies arise, a new questionnaire could split the forum again, making the correct retards think the heretics got ejected, but instead these would have just ended up in another echo chamber. I wonder how many posts rusty now has in his dimension.
 

jungl

Augur
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
1,467
digging the robo nachtzehrers looking forward to the forested planets with the alien webknechts.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,945
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
I came here wishing for a discussion about the new game of BB devs. Instead i got a disscussion about the nature of rpg number 999. Thanks Harthwain, Zombra and others. Now i feel obliged to add something. Damn, all of you!

BTW, i'm not 100% sure myself if BB should be considered a crpg though i'm leaning towards it being one. However the discussion about "laptop guy" having stats or not, is retarded. CRPGs can have a whole team as protagonist. EXACTLY the same as in Battle Brothers contrary to what someone claimed. Is this protagonist a team of mercenaries or a team of murder-hobos, there is no difference. In some old CRPGs you were even able to hire/replace members of you party - just like in BBs. Let's ignore the issue of Lone Wolf start, it's not even needed for the argument. And those members often had less individuality than mercs in BB. Additionally, afair, if all mercenaries die in BB in battle and you lack reserves - the game is over. Again, no different than in a party CRPGs. So stop this nonsense.
What makes BB different from 99% of CRPGs out there, is something entirely different - the lack of a central narrative, of main story. However there are few games that share this characteristic and are widely considered CRPGs on Codex, Darklands being one. That's why i'm not sure.

I hope Menace will remain a "mostly crpg" instead of an nuXCom clone. Unless they'll make a great clone - then it will be great. Basically, time will tell. I share some people's opinion on graphics. Generic 3D we see now < sprites, even if non-animated and legless.
 

Serus

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
6,945
Location
Small but great planet of Potatohole
Full 3d and cinematic trailer. I am not optimistic
Meh, hiring artists doesn't mean the design will be bad. Question is whether hiring artists is ALL they did - which I doubt.
However hiring bad artists means wasted money. The game might still be very good, as you say. As long as graphics and interface is usable i can live with that.
 

Sarissofoi

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Messages
762
See that there are news about new Underhype game. Check Codex - see that there 8 pages of discussion already!
Check it and its just some autists flinging shit at each other over definition of RPG and question if BB is a RPG or not...
You folks are real menace of the gaming society and probably a enemy we will fight in the new game.
Sigh.
That being said I am quite pleasantly surprised with what I see. Not hyped but it looks fine so far. Even 3 D graphics looks fine - simple and clean but with enough detail. It looks like completely different game with different play style than BB and tbh i am fine with that. That said, I am not really trusting Underhype words. We will see.
Units look to be team based(section/squad for infantry, single vehicle for IVF, tanks and mechs), wonder if its HP be gonna model based and how much you can customize it(and how perks of the commanders will affect it). The base will be mobile and upgrade able(your mother ship). Now of course question how well they can handle whole generating world(star system), diplomacy and progression. We will see.
Overall I don't really see how its similar to modern X Com other than similarity of the settings - fighting aliens(?).
 
Last edited:

Teut Busnet

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Dec 31, 2016
Messages
972
Codex Year of the Donut
I'm missing the character a bit the Bros had in BB. They were instantly recognisable and you would cheer them on or fear for their life in critical situations.

Well, we haven't seen actual gameplay, the fighters can probably be identified better than in the trailer. I still think we might lose some personality though.

Anyway, I'll buy it day one. Good luck guys!
 

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
Patron
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
20,645
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom