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Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

Alex

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What a dumbfuck statement. Just because they enabled mod support, that doesn't mean they didn't have an original vision for the game. Especially for Morrowind of all things, which people always praised for its very unique and specific "alien" and exotic feel.

You completely misunderstood what I said.
That Bethesda makes their games with mod support in mind makes all "muh original vision!!1!!" complaints nonsensical. The game was expected to be modded. Not even the devs think of their original vision as something to be protected. Whether you like it or not doesn't matter, others do like it.

In other words, I'm not denying there was an original vision. What I'm criticizing is the idea that just because there was an original vision, mods that change it are bad.
You are being silly because Morrowind, of all TES games, is the one with the strongest original vision. In all of the older TES games, the lore and mood that are unique to that specific setting are present in a greater or lesser way, but it was Morrowind that amped that up to 11 out of Arena or Daggerfall or any of the spin offs (to be fair, I haven't played Redguard). Morrowind has an alien atmosphere that is specific of that that particular place, it has a lot of emphasis in the unique culture and history of the Dark Elves. Unlike Daggerfall, it doesn't look like a "standard" fantasy setting with medieval trappings and whatnot. Because of all that, it is probably the worst possible game you could use AI to "upscale" stuff.

And yes, it is completely possible to spoil all the mood and visuals with mods as well. That changes nothing about whether they are important to that particular game or not.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Mods are a tool given to players to add, remove, or change things about the game.

It is possible to make mods that improve things, of course. Tamriel Rebuilt and Project Tamriel add high quality content that is true to the original vision of Morrowind and the extended Tamriel lore from that era (which is very different from modern TES lore). There are some quest mods that add more depth to the game's existing factions and make House Dagoth joinable. There are mods that re-model and expand existing dungeons to make them larger and more complex and interesting.

But it is also possible to make mods that worsen the experience, rather than enhance it. Half-assed graphic "improvement" mods that completely change the artistic style of the game are among those. The game's visuals become objectively worse when you use them. Some people may enjoy the "upgraded" visuals, but some people also think Jackson Pollock's random splotches of color are art. Objectively, these texture mods are a mess. They are often made very thoughtlessly, without regard for brightness, color, composition etc.

This is what games look like when you use HD texture mods:
20120921__20120922_A22_ND22RESTORATIONp1.jpg
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,359
You are being silly because Morrowind, of all TES games, is the one with the strongest original vision. In all of the older TES games, the lore and mood that are unique to that specific setting are present in a greater or lesser way, but it was Morrowind that amped that up to 11 out of Arena or Daggerfall or any of the spin offs (to be fair, I haven't played Redguard). Morrowind has an alien atmosphere that is specific of that that particular place, it has a lot of emphasis in the unique culture and history of the Dark Elves. Unlike Daggerfall, it doesn't look like a "standard" fantasy setting with medieval trappings and whatnot. Because of all that, it is probably the worst possible game you could use AI to "upscale" stuff.

And yes, it is completely possible to spoil all the mood and visuals with mods as well. That changes nothing about whether they are important to that particular game or not.

Again, completely ignoring what I said. So I'll spell it out for you.
  1. I never denied Morrowind has a vision.
  2. I'll state it plainly: Morrowind HAS a vision.
  3. That it has a vision is no argument against people doing whatever the fuck they want with the game. It's their game. If you don't like it, I have good news: don't use mods.
Now can we please stop arguing autistically about what other people choose to do with their games?
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
That Bethesda makes their games with mod support in mind makes all "muh original vision!!1!!" complaints nonsensical. The game was expected to be modded. Not even the devs think of their original vision as something to be protected.

All that may be true, and still it is just as true that developers indeed had an "original vision". I did not say such a vision is necessarily the best one out of all the possible visions the game can have, and neither has anyone else here. Nor have I said it needs to be "protected", since there is, after all, the original Morrowind. You accuse others od misunderstanding you, but I don't see you to have tried to understand the other side at all. Because, the *real* issue here is the obvious inferiority of the supposedly enhanced and improved visuals. They are not that. They are inferior to the original. And we are simply pointing it out. No doubt there are many who will enjoy it, which still won't change the fact how "RTX ON" makes the game look like complete shit.
 

Sigourn

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Messages
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Because, the *real* issue here is the obvious inferiority of the supposedly enhanced and improved visuals. They are not that. They are inferior to the original. And we are simply pointing it out. No doubt there are many who will enjoy it, which still won't change the fact how "RTX ON" makes the game look like complete shit.
And again, this completely misses the point of the showcase. It's not about "wow this looks so much better than the original". It's about "wow, look at what you can do with this tool".

Just like how you can use the Construction Set for good AND bad mods, you can do the same with RTX.
 

Alex

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
7,728
Location
São Paulo - Brasil
You are being silly because Morrowind, of all TES games, is the one with the strongest original vision. In all of the older TES games, the lore and mood that are unique to that specific setting are present in a greater or lesser way, but it was Morrowind that amped that up to 11 out of Arena or Daggerfall or any of the spin offs (to be fair, I haven't played Redguard). Morrowind has an alien atmosphere that is specific of that that particular place, it has a lot of emphasis in the unique culture and history of the Dark Elves. Unlike Daggerfall, it doesn't look like a "standard" fantasy setting with medieval trappings and whatnot. Because of all that, it is probably the worst possible game you could use AI to "upscale" stuff.

And yes, it is completely possible to spoil all the mood and visuals with mods as well. That changes nothing about whether they are important to that particular game or not.

Again, completely ignoring what I said. So I'll spell it out for you.
  1. I never denied Morrowind has a vision.
  2. I'll state it plainly: Morrowind HAS a vision.
  3. That it has a vision is no argument against people doing whatever the fuck they want with the game. It's their game. If you don't like it, I have good news: don't use mods.
Now can we please stop arguing autistically about what other people choose to do with their games?

Yes, people can do whatever they want with the game, just like I can say whatever I want about the results they obtain. In this specific case, the results themselves are not only bad, but they are going to be bad without heavy human intervention (a qualified one, at that). That, because of the kind of game MW is. Your original point, if I got it correctly, is that it is silly to complain people are modifying MW when the game was build with mod-ability in mind. But while it is true there was that aspect, the distinctiveness of MW was an even more important feature, which is why I said it was a silly argument. Perhaps I used a bad language to get my point across, my point is that it isn't valid not because you are silly or because it is somehow a clear mistake, but only that it is ultimately wrong when you consider this other aspect of Morrowind.
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
And again, this completely misses the point of the showcase. It's not about "wow this looks so much better than the original". It's about "wow, look at what you can do with this tool".

I think you're being optimistic, generous and a bit naive here. I actually don't mind the technology at all. But unlike you, I think the primary point is to precisely show how using this technology we can make older games look better than ever, even if such a point is only implied. Morrowind simply looks vastly superior "as is" compared to what this particular implementation of rendering technology shows (therefore the relevant question is why even bother?), and yet they still made a whole 6-minutes-long video showcasing the supposed greatness of technology... even when it's apparent the end-result is just worse in even purely visual terms (so disregarding the "artistic vision", "scene composition" and other things pertaining to visual arts and entertainment that are not quite quantifiable or easy to explain and prove).​
 

Seethe

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
901
Dude, what the fuck is your investment in this shit?

It's like you have a dream of being a star TES modder but you don't have any skills and think this tech will overcome that or something.
Lots of losers are on fire over this now. If you notice it's usually people who have failed at becoming versed in whatever is it they try to use AI for.
 

KateMicucci

Arcane
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Messages
1,488
Some comparison screenshots from the video above:​

LOtMMiP.png


5jRILdl.png


JCbxm1W.png


mOZpg7D.png



stthkFC.png


Cqug0zd.png


jZOldEJ.png


9lmAPjr.png


First, altering textures is unavoidably altering the creative vision of the original developers, which means that a game altered in such a way is no longer true to its original, and this in turn has repercussions on the overall aesthetics and the quality of the game; obviously, this goes beyond simple "upscaling" of textures which may retain the original look, but are simply of greater resolution and clarity. However, this particular point can be put aside for now, and we can focus exclusively on what this technology brings us in terms of graphical presentation, or more importantly - in terms of the overall aesthetics.

1. Virtually every single instance of the "RTX ON" "enhanced" scene shows that everything is covered in shades of yellow and brown, and occasionally orange and other similar colours. This yellowish-brown "filter", because it very obviously amounts to being a filter and nothing else, is so intensive, that it drowns every other colour present. Take a look at the first screenshot for instance: without RTX we have grey floor, brownish walls, red and purple table sheet, white (silvery?) cutlery, light green (azure?) candles, brown and white floor carpet, green (leftmost), brown (left) and brown-red (center) wall tapestries, among other things. And what do we have with "RTX ON"? Almost everything is of brown and yellow coulour, with *sometimes* other colours managing to get through (mostly red in the case of floor carpet). This can be seen in all the other instances and scenes as well. Horrendous.

2. The last pair of screenshots, showing a large interior with stairs, looks crispy-clear in the original, whilst the "RTX ON" causes the whole scene to become blurry, foggy and simply messy; in addition to the yellowish-brown filter of course.

So what does this technology *actually* achieves, in terms of aesthetics? Quite simply, it achieves the look of such disgustingly-looking games like the first Gears of War, with everything looking like shit, mud and piss. Not only is the colour palette reduced to a couple of colours, but everything is also blurry. Well, congratulations Nvidia! With the resources of a large, successful corporation, and with all the modern advancements in graphical processing, you've managed to create something that looks worse than a game made 20 years ago. Truly an achievement only a complete imbecile can be proud of, which I have no doubt many of modern-day developers, gamers and others are. Otherwise we would have gotten a few Morrowinds by now, but instead here we are incapable of creating something at least on its level and resorting to pitiful attempts at "enhancing" it, failing miserably as expected.

Final verdict: it is shit.
Instead of this wall of text, you could have just said "RTX replaced some of the cool lighting with warm lighting and that makes me angry"
 

Late Bloomer

Educated
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Apr 7, 2022
Messages
812
Watch your tongue! You're speaking to the Nerevarine, the true reincarnation of Indoril Nerevar.

 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Lusitânia
Morrowind simply looks vastly superior "as is" compared to what this particular implementation of rendering technology shows, and yet they still made a whole 6-minutes-long video showcasing the supposed greatness of technology... even when it's apparent the end-result is just worse in even purely visual terms
The primary draw of this tech was cleary it's functionalities and operation - a program that allows modders to easily modify various complex graphical properties (lighting, textures, models, physics, etc.) by replicating in-game assets in it's own separate file (this last part is actually quite impresive)
Besides they don't present the AI application of the RTX as perfect or even artistically faithful to games it scans (that would be impossible), seeing the guy even dedicates a portion of it to showing that
It is pretty clear that the scan is simply a "rough sketch" and then it's up to the user himself to improve the scene

Again, having a brainfart over something that in the end is just a net positive to Modding scenes of games supported by this tech
 

CHEMS

Scholar
Joined
Nov 17, 2020
Messages
1,205
OpenMW's great stability wise, but with no scripting support that's a lot of cool stuff the modding community does that you can't enjoy. OpenMW is the way to go in wine, i'm trying to run the vanilla engine moded on linux, but's been a pain in the ass so far. Game simple won't start, but on OpenMW it starts perfectly.

I'm trying to tweak wine and see some libraries. I really wish to be able to play modded Morrowind on Leenux. :(
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
Some comparison screenshots from the video above:​

LOtMMiP.png


5jRILdl.png


JCbxm1W.png


mOZpg7D.png



stthkFC.png


Cqug0zd.png


jZOldEJ.png


9lmAPjr.png


First, altering textures is unavoidably altering the creative vision of the original developers, which means that a game altered in such a way is no longer true to its original, and this in turn has repercussions on the overall aesthetics and the quality of the game; obviously, this goes beyond simple "upscaling" of textures which may retain the original look, but are simply of greater resolution and clarity. However, this particular point can be put aside for now, and we can focus exclusively on what this technology brings us in terms of graphical presentation, or more importantly - in terms of the overall aesthetics.

1. Virtually every single instance of the "RTX ON" "enhanced" scene shows that everything is covered in shades of yellow and brown, and occasionally orange and other similar colours. This yellowish-brown "filter", because it very obviously amounts to being a filter and nothing else, is so intensive, that it drowns every other colour present. Take a look at the first screenshot for instance: without RTX we have grey floor, brownish walls, red and purple table sheet, white (silvery?) cutlery, light green (azure?) candles, brown and white floor carpet, green (leftmost), brown (left) and brown-red (center) wall tapestries, among other things. And what do we have with "RTX ON"? Almost everything is of brown and yellow coulour, with *sometimes* other colours managing to get through (mostly red in the case of floor carpet). This can be seen in all the other instances and scenes as well. Horrendous.

2. The last pair of screenshots, showing a large interior with stairs, looks crispy-clear in the original, whilst the "RTX ON" causes the whole scene to become blurry, foggy and simply messy; in addition to the yellowish-brown filter of course.

So what does this technology *actually* achieves, in terms of aesthetics? Quite simply, it achieves the look of such disgustingly-looking games like the first Gears of War, with everything looking like shit, mud and piss. Not only is the colour palette reduced to a couple of colours, but everything is also blurry. Well, congratulations Nvidia! With the resources of a large, successful corporation, and with all the modern advancements in graphical processing, you've managed to create something that looks worse than a game made 20 years ago. Truly an achievement only a complete imbecile can be proud of, which I have no doubt many of modern-day developers, gamers and others are. Otherwise we would have gotten a few Morrowinds by now, but instead here we are incapable of creating something at least on its level and resorting to pitiful attempts at "enhancing" it, failing miserably as expected.

Final verdict: it is shit.
Instead of this wall of text, you could have just said "RTX replaced some of the cool lighting with warm lighting and that makes me angry"

If you fail to see how the new shit is, will, shit, then you either have a severely impaired vision or are too stupid to be able to distinguish beauty from ugliness. "Warm lighting" where it does not belong and it was not intended to be is more than enough to destroy everything, visually speaking.​
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,288
Morrowind simply looks vastly superior "as is" compared to what this particular implementation of rendering technology shows, and yet they still made a whole 6-minutes-long video showcasing the supposed greatness of technology... even when it's apparent the end-result is just worse in even purely visual terms
The primary draw of this tech was cleary it's functionalities and operation - a program that allows modders to easily modify various complex graphical properties (lighting, textures, models, physics, etc.) by replicating in-game assets in it's own separate file (this last part is actually quite impresive)
Besides they don't present the AI application of the RTX as perfect or even artistically faithful to games it scans (that would be impossible), seeing the guy even dedicates a portion of it to showing that
It is pretty clear that the scan is simply a "rough sketch" and then it's up to the user himself to improve the scene

Again, having a brainfart over something that in the end is just a net positive to Modding scenes of games supported by this tech

I will not disagree with most here; as a technology I admit to it being impressive. I simply doubt "more tech" will really be a net positive and, and this is important, this tech may inherently make older games uglier regardless of what one initially sets out to do, simply due to it being a different kind of rendering technique, quite like how above someone said "warm lighting" is what is different. I suspect we will *only* see that "warm lighting" used with this, I did not say without a reason that this reminds me of games released during late 2000s, where "realism" there meant yellow, brown and maybe gray colour.​
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
5,988
Location
Lusitânia
I simply doubt "more tech" will really be a net positive
Net positive, in the sense that it truly is an addition - it doesn't replace any of the other tools, and it provides new possibilities to modding
Yes probably most gfx mods made with it will suck, but the Nexus is already flooded with bad mods made with other tools - so that isn't reason to deny the potential good works that can be made with this

Now the rendering issue is a valid concern, but it is also something that will only be properly assed when this tech releases and people can analyse it true capabilities - as the video is focusing first and foremost on showing the program primary features, not its best potential application to a game's scene...
 

MWaser

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 22, 2015
Messages
591
Location
Where you won't find me
sooo "RTX on" adds completely new geometry?
because half the screenshot is either new assets or assets that weren't even there before -- look at the ceiling in the first screenshot.
It's a mod built using tools centered around an engine supporting RTX rendering with special mod tools developed for it that also allow stuff like generating textures based on materials and upscaling. The models are either made by the modder or stolen from somewhere else (pretty likely the other one because I've also seen literal Skyrim potion bottles in the full video - watch it for context)
 

Valdetiosi

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
214
Location
Finland
The more I replay it the more I get ENB vibes, which are just "make everything bright with light".
I'm not even focusing on textures, because lighting is bigger eye catcher and if everything just gets turned super bright, why bother?

1215280-1336186404.jpg
 

Curious_Tongue

Larpfest
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Joined
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Messages
11,409
Location
Australia
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014
I kind of like the top image.

It better mimics the effect what strong sunlight has on scenery.
 

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