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neverwinter nights 2

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
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It's kind of tragic that Storm of Zephyr didn't come out more polished with more opportunities to actually roleplay with your characters based on their backgrounds, races, classes and attributes. I liked the concept of building up your party entirely and starting out a low level adventure.
Also, Storm of Zehir had a really great system for those CNPCs that you could recruit, in which they got unique dialogue options, and you could switch freely between who was talking. It has so much potential to work well, like essentially controlling the interjections of various team-members, whether recruited or created.

Sadly, I never saw it in anything again. Just another wasted opportunity, a great idea never picked up by any developer, presumably because the guy that thought of it didn't get to work on a similar thing again and developers don't seem to play games anymore.
No way, Jerro was a Warlock, he was never a Red Wizard. He was taken prisoner by the Red Wizards and brought to Thaymount. It's no more or less contrived than any potential explanation that would've brought Neeshka there, which would've been the patrician choice.

Oh, right. They considered Jerro a threat, Neeshka wasn't. She also wouldn't fit the tone or the themes of the game, but Jerro did.
Neeshka could easily have been worked in. She's a tiefling with a confirmed lineage to a named fiend. To say that she couldn't fit into a scenario with a dream-bear deity, a half-celestial, and a clean-shaven red hussy just because she's not /slitwrists is kinda ridiculous. Jerro didn't fit any better until he he was made to do so.
 
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Joined
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Messages
653
Also, Storm of Zehir had a really great system for those CNPCs that you could recruit, in which they got unique dialogue options, and you could switch freely between who was talking. It has so much potential to work well, like essentially controlling the interjections of various team-members, whether recruited or created.

Sadly, I never saw it in anything again. Just another wasted opportunity, a great idea never picked up by any developer, presumably because the guy that thought of it didn't get to work on a similar thing again and developers don't seem to play games anymore.
I truly believe it had the potential to be one of the best RPG's of its time. When Kingmaker first came out I had hoped it would do this precisely, but the lack of roleplay reactivity outside of alignment was quite noticeable, though I reckon they'll improve upon this aspect with the upcoming title.
I suppose Zehir's problem was two-fold - lack of proper budget and the misfortune of being released during the time of RPG drought. But yeah, I am not quite certain why aren't the developers picking up on this concept more. Tossing an attribute/background/class check here and there surely can't be so time and effort consuming, yet it gives so much depth to the immersion and uniqueness of each individual experience.
 
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
Messages
653
Another detail I liked about Storm of Zehir while contextually taking Motb into consideration:

You encounter One of Many as a miniboss of sorts, meaning the canonical PC was likely evil and has ultimately mastered the curse, going toe to toe against the host of gods. Makes you think in what plane did he/she end up in, considering it'd have to be away from the eyes of pretty much entire Toril pantheon. Imagine if they ended up in Ravenloft/Demiplane of Dread or some shit, would make a potentially interesting tabletop encounter or some such.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
The camera problems are vastly exaggerated. The over-the-shoulder camera is just fine, and exploration mode is what I used 99% of the time without complaint. Strategy mode, while giving you the most tactical view, is slightly unwieldy in the 3D environment. All the bitching and moaning about the camera are exaggerations. The OC doesn't commit too many offenses aside from being too long, as it is thoroughly mediocre--thought not without some high points. Mask of the Betrayer has a wonderful narrative, Storm of Zehir if a party-based exploration romp, and Mysteries of Westgate is a decent enough adventure itself. NWN2 is worth a try if you're a D&D fan, for sure.

When people complain about the camera and control in this game, I don't think they quite nail what the problem is. The problem is that the division into three modes is quite a good idea, but it's not very well implemented, and some of the things are in the wrong places (i.e. things that would really fit with one mode aren't available for it, are available only in another mode, where they're useless).

I mean, sure, you can wrangle a tolerably decent Infinity Engine style out of Strategy mode, and a kinda-sorta WoW control mode out of Character mode; but assigning WASD control is absolutely pointless for either Exploration or Strategy mode, and should be effective only in Character Steering mode (i.e. as it stands, you can't assign those keys to camera and character steering at the same time) and you should be able to configure the keymapping to your taste (for example, in Character mode, you should be able to mouse-steer with RMB, as is standard in all games with that type of control, not fricken' LMB). It's like that all the way with NWN2's control system: all the bits and pieces are there for a decent control system, but some of them are in the wrong places in a way that's hard-coded, and the options available don't really allow you to marshall a system that's really comfortable for any of the 3 modes.

We played these games in our youth because they were the best available, and there wasn't as much standardization of control modes in games, developers often had idioscyncratic ways of you controlling the game, so there wasn't that thing of muscle memory carrying over from one game to another that's common (and a very good thing) now. We were more used to learning each game as a separate thing and just getting used to it.

Now, playing NWN2 again, there's a lot to like about it, but the control system is still incredibly awkward and clunky, and one feels one is fighting against it constantly. Gradually, via the DA and ME games, BioWare homed in on slicker and simpler control systems, till by DA:I they had it all pretty smooth for switching between close and distant views, between more free-form and nitty-gritty tactical. But this early phase was pretty awful. (Actually, ironically, NWN had better controls than NWN2.)

When one compares the slickness of the control systems of DA:I or PF:K (especially with the mod to turn camera view) one realizes how far these things have come and how well developers have settled on certain conventions. But those conventions weren't quite in place when NWN2 came out, nothing had been settled in that way yet.
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
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11,069
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Nottingham
Totally agree I'm afraid. Whatever goodness is buried in there, is buried so deep beneath the shite interface & camera that - despite around 5 attempts to play it through now - I don't think I've ever given it more than 10 hours maximum.

Big shame coz there's clearly some good elements, but I've no idea why anyone would play this instead of Dragon Age: Origins.
 

vazha

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
2,069
The biggest problem it has is how laughably, inconceivably easy it is once you have an elementary grasp of the systems.
 

Orud

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Started playing this game and all its expansions more than a month ago, so I could once and for all write it off as 'finished'. I played the OC back when it first came about, but never picked up the expansions for some reason I couldn't remember. At first I thought that it was because I didn't care for the game, but now I'm not so sure.

As repeated plenty of times already in this thread, the AI is downright horrific and the party controls... they're even worse. I don't get how they created multiple expansions and still ended up with a botched disaster (when it comes to controls) like this. Even back then they had plenty of existing examples to base themselves on, so there's little excuse. Maybe there was a technical hurdle (e.g. Bioware delivered a hackjob of an engine for Obsidian to work with), but I fear it might simply come down to sheer incompetence.

And it's a damn shame.

While the OC is at best 'MEH', I still liked it way more than whatever the OC of NwN1 was meant to be. But then come the expansions. People have not been overexaggerating, MoTB is damn good. I finished it last week and the more I reminisce about it, the more I love it. I'm currently nearing the end of SoZ and I'm absolutely loving it too, although for its 'adventures on the Sword Coast'-vibe instead of any plot related things.

But god damn if the game doesn't try its best for you to not like it. I'm planning on finishing SoZ and MoW, but then I'll move on and give Kingsmaker another playthrough on turn-based mode. But I find myself somewhat sad by the thought that I'll probably never come back to this game, since it has so much potential that is just ruined by its frustrating UI. I'm convinced that it would've been a classic if it didn't have these issues.
 
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anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
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Kelethin
Everything was janky back then. But you can fix the camera easily, it becomes like WoW and modern games if you just click the right thing in the options. You can have WASD and everything, you just gotta set it up. And the pay off is a game that will be so much deeper and more complex than anything you've ever played before that you'll spend an hour setting it up then quit on the first battle :)
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
Everything was janky back then. But you can fix the camera easily, it becomes like WoW and modern games if you just click the right thing in the options. You can have WASD and everything, you just gotta set it up. And the pay off is a game that will be so much deeper and more complex than anything you've ever played before that you'll spend an hour setting it up then quit on the first battle :)

Well it kinda does after a fashion but it uses LMB (or is it MMB?) to steer instead of RMB as is standard in third person mouse-steering. And although there's an autohotkey .exe that's floating around switches that to RMB, the control mode still has problems - it doesn't really work smoothly. For example, the auto-facing or auto-turning problem in that mode, which requires you to either turn first then move or move first then turn (can't remember which) in order to neutralize it; so you've fixed one problem but then another niggle crops up.

It's not as smooth top-down as NWN1, and it's janky in WoW-ish mode. One is constantly fighting with the interface one way or another, one can never just relax and play. The best you can hope for is a low-level irritating compromise of some sort that lets you more or less play through the game, but it's never comfortable. YMMV ofc but complaints about the interface are pretty widespread, maybe the main complaint about the game.
 

Old Hans

Arcane
Joined
Oct 10, 2011
Messages
2,158
NWN 1 & 2 I could never escape that feeling I was just playing in someone's D&D toy set. something about that engine that just sucked. Fun to play with the editor though
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,681
And it's a damn shame.
Well, this is the proper thread to shill my guide to setting up NWN2's controls, seeing as it's what got me to make it in the first place.

It's not as smooth top-down as NWN1, and it's janky in WoW-ish mode.
Character Mode is best ignored altogether, with a bit of config work NWN2 can handle almost as well tolerably as a party-based NWN1 would. I just wish Obsidian had finished implementing a speed setting for the edge-turning.
 

gurugeorge

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NWN 1 & 2 I could never escape that feeling I was just playing in someone's D&D toy set. something about that engine that just sucked. Fun to play with the editor though

They're different engines IIRC, but I know what you mean - but that was an artifact of both games being designed to be a D&D toy set for everyone (the multiplayer, the ability to construct dungeons and persistent worlds, etc.)
 

Gargaune

Arcane
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,681
They're different engines IIRC
Not really, NWN2's Electron was Obsidian's direct evolution of BioWare's NWN1 Aurora, basically a different generation of the same engine.

Obsidian Entertainment (successor to Black Isle Studios) used an updated version of BioWare's Aurora, titled "Electron Engine", to produce Neverwinter Nights 2 (2006) and its three expansion packs (2007–2009).

You can see BioWare's Technology entry on Wikipedia for more info.
 

Orud

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming!
Well, this is the proper thread to shill my guide to setting up NWN2's controls, seeing as it's what got me to make it in the first place.

Oh, I don't know if this is the place to say it (I can't DM on these forums), but thanks for making that list by the way. It's the reason I decided to fire this game up again a while back and check out MoTB.

Still hate the party controls though, stuff like formations should be in there.

Anyway, thanks again.
 

Chippy

Arcane
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Messages
6,241
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Playing the OC again now. Don't know how I put up with it when it came out and remembering why I've probably only played it once or twice. Everything feels like it was trying to repair what wasn't broken; just playing it makes me want to go back to the IE games. Where simple was beautiful, and allowed you to play the game better.
 

Chippy

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Still playing the OC. Have to take breaks every once in a while. This is probably my 3rd plythrough since it came out. Underneath all the problems there's a decent game here. I assume Sawyer balanced all the classes (like no Arcane Archer progression past level 10). And there's continuous dumbfuckery like party members rearanging themselves - which prevents me from familiarising myself with the 'F' hotkeys - and despite what Lilura says, the camera is shit.

THere's just so much holding it back. Like they went to all the trouble of having party members speak out at certain points in the game, and then restricted you to 4 party members. So I'm using the cheat for 6, and a mod that increases the level cap to 40, and allows party members to multiclass as per the PC. Maybe if they'd implemented basic stuff like that, the game wouldn't have been mostly forgotten and hardly ever referenced.

So fuck you Sawyer! The game is much more fun like this.
:happytrollboy:
Almost has as much build porn as Kingmaker.
 

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