NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Nerevar]

Why spear then scythe? If you choose spear to start with then scythe doesn't get the WM bonuses does it? Why not go for scim all the way?

 

[Lacrymas]

Why spear then scythe? If you choose spear to start with then scythe doesn't get the WM bonuses does it? Why not go for scim all the way?

You need a weapon focus to be eligible for WM and the only useful and possible one is spear. It's that because Shifters and Druids don't have access to proficiencies outside the Druid one and the drider form uses a spear. After getting your WM levels you can get exotic weapon proficiency and focus on scythe. You focus on scythe because the Risen Lord (undead shape) uses a scythe, there is no form which uses a scimitar. WM gets another Weapon of Choice at WM level 13, so the scythe does get the WM bonuses.

 

[Nerevar]

How does a build like this end up? Do you have one saved I can take a look at or a screenshot?

 

[rogueknight333]

So what ones are good now days. I have nothing against a good dungeon crawl but i would prefer if the module have good writing / story?

Off the top of my head, some of the best modules for story/writing (though not necessarily great with regard to combat or general gameplay) that I am familiar with would be those by Baldecaran and Alazander, Daniel Muth's Aribeth's Redemption, perhaps Tales of Arterra.

I'm planning another attempt at a Shifter in Swordflight, but I can't make up my mind on what is best. I've narrowed it down to 3 interesting builds - a halfling Druid/Shifter/CoT (or maybe Blackguard?), a human Druid/Shifter/Weapon Master or a dwarf Druid/Shifter/Dwarven Defender...

Due to the feat requirements, trying to build a Weapon Master with neither Fighter or COT in the mix is usually painful. You will note that in your proposed build you have spent almost all your Epic feat slots on pre-Epic feats, generally a bad sign. I would not recommend a Shifter/WM. COT is probably the warrior class that best complements a Druid, due to being able to select Great Wisdom feats as COT bonus feats in Epic levels. Dwarven Defender is not so bad either, though Halfling might be a better race for Risen Lord since IIRC that form overrides base STR and CON but not DEX. Fighter works too. I am not sure Blackguard offers anything that especially complements a Shifter though combining with Shifter might allow you, if using forms that override STR, to put more into CHA than would otherwise be feasible. However, Blackguard tends not to work so well with a Halfling, since it is harder for that race to get the 13 STR needed as a prerequisite for Power Attack and Cleave. In some builds one can get around this by taking a Monk level for the free Cleave feat, but that obviously will not work here, and one needs Power Attack anyway to get Divine Might or Shield, which could be one of the main things Blackguard offers.

If you are playing a Shifter focused on Risen Lord in Swordflight, do not overlook the Druid merchant in Zazesspur in Ch. 3, who sells special healing potions usable by the Undead. In a normal module the Vampiric Regeneration attached to the Risen Lord's scythe can often provide all the healing one needs, but in Swordflight it might not be sufficient.

 

[Nerevar]

Something cool and really unexpected on my 2nd play through of SF 2!

I can do the good rogue quest because of my familiar, now that is attention to detail. So far my Pal/Sorc/RDD has done the Fighter quest, Pala/Cleric quest and now am getting to do the Rogue quest too and I can do the arcane caster quest after that. Man talk about getting your money's worth for a playthrough. I hope there is some good loot coming my way (fighters really didn't get any loot compared to the other classes in their class quest).

 

[Lacrymas]

How does a build like this end up? Do you have one saved I can take a look at or a screenshot?

No idea, that's what I'm trying to find out, lol.

Due to the feat requirements, trying to build a Weapon Master with neither Fighter or COT in the mix is usually painful. You will note that in your proposed build you have spent almost all your Epic feat slots on pre-Epic feats, generally a bad sign. I would not recommend a Shifter/WM. COT is probably the warrior class that best complements a Druid, due to being able to select Great Wisdom feats as COT bonus feats in Epic levels. Dwarven Defender is not so bad either, though Halfling might be a better race for Risen Lord since IIRC that form overrides base STR and CON but not DEX. Fighter works too.

The pre-epic feats in epic levels are with the intention of getting Devastating Critical, you can skip them, but then there is no point to going WM and you are better off with a DwD or CoT. What else would you spend the epic feats on with this character build if you could somehow get the feats before epic? I think you have all the DR you can want from being undead AND the immunities that come from that, so it's kind of meh to go for Epic Damage Reduction, and Armor Skin is pointless due to the shape's inherently low AC. I have already included Epic WF and Epic Prowess. You can't get the epic spells due to the inability to cast 9th circle spells. Stacking Great DEX would only increase your AC again and seems like a waste. If you want to stack defense with the Risen Lord it's better off with a DwD. There is no point to getting Great WIS in this build because you don't have the Druid levels to justify it. Epic Dodge? Probably the only good one you can't get, but you have to sacrifice something. If you plan to make most of your mobs immune to Dev Crit in the later entries in the series then it can be skipped in favor of another feat. Maybe you can go for epic drider form and focus on spear exclusively.

I just don't see how else a build like this (Shifter/WM) would work and it doesn't look bad on paper. If it was something that wasn't Shifter, then, yeah, it's pretty bad, but given the Risen Lord's advantages I think it's feasible. You gain both defense and very good offense. Yeah, DwD would be much tankier, but you can't take everything and it's not going to be as good on offense.

 

[Lilura]

i would prefer if the module have good writing / story?

Bastard of Kosigan.

 

[rogueknight333]

... What else would you spend the epic feats on with this character build if you could somehow get the feats before epic? ...

It is not necessarily that I would select different feats, as that the fact you get deep in Epic levels before taking basic feats like Improved Critical and Cleave is a bad sign for the soundness of the build: symptom not disease. Most warrior builds would have those feats by 10th level, and have feats like Epic WF and Epic Prowess very early in Epic levels. "My AC is going to be so low anyway it is not worth trying to marginally improve it" is also a bad sign. It also unfortunate that you cannot fit Blindfight or Toughness in anywhere. It looks to me like one of those "good on paper" builds that might work at Level 40, but will be very weak throughout the greater part of its career.

To clarify another point in my previous post, I perhaps should note that "Fighter works too" applies to a Dwarf (or Human or Half-elf). Using it with a race where it might cause an XP penalty could be problematic, though doable if you balance Druid and Fighter levels carefully.

FWIW, I am not at this time planning to disable Devastating Critical generally in Swordflight (and it is currently usable in Ch. 3), but will probably do so for a handful of select bosses in Chs 4+ . It should be a useful feat, though naturally it will be a lot more useful for characters who take it at Level 21 rather than 39.

 

[Lacrymas]

It is not necessarily that I would select different feats, as that the fact you get deep in Epic levels before taking basic feats like Improved Critical and Cleave is a bad sign for the soundness of the build: symptom not disease. Most warrior builds would have those feats by 10th level, and have feats like Epic WF and Epic Prowess very early in Epic levels. "My AC is going to be so low anyway it is not worth trying to marginally improve it" is also a bad sign. It also unfortunate that you cannot fit Blindfight or Toughness in anywhere. It looks to me like one of those "good on paper" builds that might work at Level 40, but will be very weak throughout the greater part of its career.

You get Cleave at 21, Risen Lord has automatic Cleave. The bonus to HP in shapes are a substitute for Toughness. Yeah, you can have both, but not in this case. Blind Fight might sting to lose, but you win some, you lose some, you can abuse everyone's favorite Zagash to cast True Seeing and negate some of the flaws from not having Blind Fight. The AC is due to the undead shape, not because of the build, you'll always have pitiful AC with it, since only the +AC bonus is merged with the form, NOT the base armor class of the armor you have on. So, in effect, a Leather Armor +3 gives you more AC than Plate Armor +1. Also, every other kind of +AC enhancing item you have (natural, dodge etc.) gets converted to Deflection, so they don't stack. Don't forget about the natural damage reduction and 50% damage immunity to slash and pierce of the Risen Lord, as well as access to Stoneskin on Druid level 7. Yeah, getting improved critical that late sucks, but I don't know if it sucks to the point of being unplayable or it's just inconvenient.

About whether it's going to be weak across its career, it's going to be as weak as Shifters generally are, since you'll be spending much time in the forms in which you can't have Weapon Focus anyway, except drider. You have a lot of defensive feats in the start, like Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Alertness, Spring Attack etc.

 

[rogueknight333]

... About whether it's going to be weak across its career, it's going to be as weak as Shifters generally are...

Indeed, Shifter is going to be weak pre-Epic, whatever you do. In other words, Shifter is already sub-optimal, and a Weapon Master with no Fighter or COT levels is sub-optimal as well. Both take too long to get their core capabilities. So you are combining two problematic build ideas together for something even more problematic. Another problem is that you are focusing on STR to meet the Dev. Crit requirements, even though your target form, and a lot of the forms you might be using in the meantime, have decent overriding STR. Focusing on DEX for better AC would be more economical, particularly since you are not getting Dev. Crit until Lvl 39 and thus will get very limited use out of it. So it does not seem to be a very good build, unless you want something deliberately gimped for the challenge.

... Don't forget about the natural damage reduction and 50% damage immunity to slash and pierce of the Risen Lord ...

I have not forgotten about that, though it might not help you as much in Swordflight as it would in some other modules. It definitely does help a lot, though, and the Undead Immunities help you more than usual, since I am stingy about providing immunity items. Vampiric Regeneration also mitigates low AC.

Either the COT or DwD version would be better, IMHO, though I think you also indicated at some point that you wanted to play an Evil Shifter? In which case neither of those classes work. Druid/Shifter/Fighter would probably be best for an evil warrior Shifter. If you are OK with a somewhat feat-starved build you might make Shifter/Blackguard work too: Divine Shield could help with your AC issues, and if you can fit Knockdown/Improved Knockdown in you could often get lots of Sneak Attack damage at higher levels. Human would be the best race in the latter case, in the former it depends on whether you want to take the trouble to balance Druid and Fighter levels to avoid an XP penalty.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, DwD is a very nice match for a Shifter. I also don't really like feat-starved builds like the WM.

 

[Lacrymas]

Another problem is that you are focusing on STR to meet the Dev. Crit requirements, even though your target form, and a lot of the forms you might be using in the meantime, have decent overriding STR.

Yeah, focusing on STR when it's going to be overridden is my main problem with the build as well. I suppose it's going to work in a post-epic environment, but it's going to be a bitch to level.

I have not forgotten about that, though it might not help you as much in Swordflight as it would in some other modules. It definitely does help a lot, though, and the Undead Immunities help you more than usual, since I am stingy about providing immunity items. Vampiric Regeneration also mitigates low AC.

Either the COT or DwD version would be better, IMHO, though I think you also indicated at some point that you wanted to play an Evil Shifter? In which case neither of those classes work. Druid/Shifter/Fighter would probably be best for an evil warrior Shifter. If you are OK with a somewhat feat-starved build you might make Shifter/Blackguard work too: Divine Shield could help with your AC issues, and if you can fit Knockdown/Improved Knockdown in you could often get lots of Sneak Attack damage at higher levels. Human would be the best race in the latter case, in the former it depends on whether you want to take the trouble to balance Druid and Fighter levels to avoid an XP penalty.

While I'd prefer to be evil I don't care that much. I don't know which would be better, though, DwD or halfling CoT. The AC issues are going to be present whatever you choose, it's just a feature of the Shifter in general, the Risen Lord depends on damage immunities and damage reductions more than not getting hit. The problem with CoT, however, is that you are going to waste a Weapon Focus feat to get access to CoT in the first place, it can still be Spear, though, so it's not that big of a waste. You also need to pump CHA to get the most out of Divine Wrath, which means less points to spend on DEX. It will be easier to get the basic feats of the cleaves, knockdown, power attack etc., though. Ugh, I don't know, it boils down to either defense (DwD) or offense (CoT) and I'm not particularly sure if the Risen Lord can do much dmg without the feat backing of the CoT. If it was any other module, I'd go with DwD.

 

[Jason Liang]

CoT isn't really CHA dependent, which is one advantage it has over Paladin/ Blackguard. 14 CHA is just fine. Divine Wrath is just a secondary perk; CoT's saving throw bonuses not being dependent on CHA is wonderful. With Halfling's Lucky and taking Luck of Heroes at char creation, you'll get +7 to each savings throw above CoT's already great saving throws. So you get to put all your bonuses into Wisdom, which not only has the obvious benefits to Druid spells and Zen Archery, and gets you to the epic Shifter feats sooner, but also some Shifter special ability saving throws are improved by WIS. If you take 4-5 CoT pre-epic, then you can take +3 WIS for your fighter bonus feats (to CoT 10) at the cost of +1 BAB. So Halfling/ CoT shifter is better suited for non-Undead shape (Undead shape's main advantage is that it doesn't have a WIS requirement).

Blackguard (non-hallfling ofcourse) is also a good chance, since it's so front loaded. You can take most of your Blackguard levels pre-epic. Which is great since both Druid and Shifter are great levels to take in Epic. Taking 5-7 levels of Blackguard total means 3-5 more levels of Druid/ Shifter, which is a huge difference. Whereas both CoT and DwD should be taken to 10. Feat-wise it isn't that far behind CoT since you don't have to take a useless weapon focus and you get heavy armor proficiency in return.

 

[Lacrymas]

What Shifter special ability that scales with WIS? Also, at the end of the day, what do you recommend for a difficult module like Swordflight? I don't have almost any experience with Shifter, so I'm lost, lol.

 

[Haplo]

Monk Wis AC bonus. And Druid spells.

For Undead Shape, DwD rocks. And you don't need Wis.

 

[Lacrymas]

Monk is a one-trick pony, very boring and it's going to be shit in Swordflight.

 

[Jason Liang]

Vampire shape dominating gaze.
Azer chieftain shape fire stream.
Rakshasa shape spells (Ice Storm, etc...)

I'm confident you can beat Swordflight with a good Shifter build or a good Druid build.

 

[Lacrymas]

Good Druid is obvious, since it's a good class in general. So you are saying that it's basically up to me to decide whether I want to go DwD, Blackguard or CoT and each one will work for Swordflight?

 

[rogueknight333]

CoT isn't really CHA dependent, which is one advantage it has over Paladin/ Blackguard. 14 CHA is just fine...

Actually, 8 (or 6, depending on race) CHA is just fine for COT, one takes the class for the extra feats and saving throw bonuses. The special abilities are just gravy, and being 1 use per day are particularly marginal in a module with resting restrictions like Swordflight. They are nice added bonuses if you need high CHA anyway for some other class or special purpose, but it is a waste of ability points to boost CHA above the minimum just to use them effectively.

Monk is a one-trick pony, very boring and it's going to be shit in Swordflight.

I am not sure about that, or at least that it would be worse than any other Shifter build. Monk helps a lot on the AC front, allows one in conjunction with Zen Archery to fight somewhat effectively at range until gaining access to more powerful Shifter forms, and offers a bunch of miscellaneous benefits like Evasion. Though naturally going all in on WIS would offer more benefits to a build focusing a bit more on Druid spellcasting, or to one going for Dragon Shape rather than Risen Lord. Perhaps not what you are interested in, but I would not recommend against it if speaking more generally.

While I'd prefer to be evil I don't care that much. I don't know which would be better, though, DwD or halfling CoT...

Dwarven Defender is probably the best. DwD damage reduction on top of Risen Lord's Slashing/Piercing immunity will help your defense a lot. The only feats you really need are Alertness, Dodge, Toughness (class pre-requisites), Blindfight, Exotic Proficiency, and Weapon Focus & Improved Critical in Scythe, which I think you can fit in pre-epic, though you would need to take Dwarven Defender promptly at Lvl 12 since that is the only class that can take Weapon Proficiency feats. Knockdown is most useful to Sneak Attackers. I dobut Dev Crit is worth it here, with a Scythe you will be doing massive damage on crits anyway to mobs not immune, and f you forget about Dev. Crit you do not need Power Attack or Cleave, and in addition you can boost DEX for more defense rather than redundant STR. Also in Swordflight you can even be evil eventually. Start out as Lawful Neutral, and once you have the 5 Druid levels you need for Shifter (or however many Druid levels you want), start making choices that shift your alignment to evil, and just take Shifter and DwD levels thereafter. Perhaps take 5-8 Levels of Druid, 10 Shifter, and DwD for all or most of the rest.

If there are some extra feats you really want, or really want to be a halfling, COT can work too. You could even eventually use Swordflight's alignment changes to make an evil COT, though it would be more complicated with that class.

... So you are saying that it's basically up to me to decide whether I want to go DwD, Blackguard or CoT and each one will work for Swordflight?

Pretty much. Any of the three will likely be difficult, but any should also be playable.

 

[Lacrymas]

Monk is a one-trick pony, very boring and it's going to be shit in Swordflight.

I am not sure about that, or at least that it would be worse than any other Shifter build. Monk helps a lot on the AC front, allows one in conjunction with Zen Archery to fight somewhat effectively at range until gaining access to more powerful Shifter forms, and offers a bunch of miscellaneous benefits like Evasion. Though naturally going all in on WIS would offer more benefits to a build focusing a bit more on Druid spellcasting, or to one going for Dragon Shape rather than Risen Lord. Perhaps not what you are interested in, but I would not recommend against it if speaking more generally.

Monk is literally useless for most of your forms since they use weapons. If you go for Dragon Shape, sure, but I'm pretty sure that shape is not worth the investment and it's going to take forever to get it. You don't lose the WIS AC since you can focus on DEX if you don't go Monk. I'd know, I ran through the Aielund Saga with Druid/Shifter/Monk, it's almost pathetic in its ineffectiveness and pointless monk levels once you start getting the powerful shapes. Once you get Risen Lord Monk really starts being worthless. Yeah, Evasion, whoop-di-doo. You also don't need Zen Archery since you are focusing on DEX. I think you lose far too much by going Monk rather than DwD or CoT and gaining very little. Druid/Shifter/Shou Disciple seems better since you gain the Flurry of Blows with any melee weapon.

So, yeah, thanks for the advice, everyone. I'm going to go with DwD.

 

[Nerevar]

Okay finished SF 2 again with my char I'm going to take through SF3. Completely unbuffed except I cast divine shield before taking the screenshot just to pump up the AC.

This was actually harder in some areas because the enemies were different from the first playthrough.

 

[Lacrymas]

You don't have enough WIS to gain access to the Paladin spells, making CoT a better alternative. Sorcerer is also wasted in this context, unless you plan to level it now, but then the RDD is wasted, since Sorc is most powerful when it's exclusively leveled, you also can't use heavy armor due to the arcane spell failure, unless you get Automatic Still Spell. Should've gone Bard/RDD/CoT. You'd have had Bard Song and more martial prowess. You waste a feat going this route, however, since I see you want to focus on scimitars, so you either take Martial Proficiency and go RDD first or take a useless WF to qualify for CoT and gain Martial Proficiency automatically. You could also go Bard/RDD/Blackguard if you absolutely want the Paladin CHA saves.

 

[Haplo]

CoT doesn't offer Paladin Cha saves bonus or Turn Undead -> Divine Shield/Power. BG could work, but that is quite a different alignment. Plus it requires Hide, which is cross class for a Sorc.
Easier for a Bard, but methinks he wants to cast some Sorc spells in the future, hence the Concentration. Makes sense to delay most Sorc levels into Epic in order to maximize BAB. Automatic Still Spell is not an absolute requirement, he can use normal Still Spells, Spells without somatic component or remove armor and pre-buff before combat.
Spellcraft is usefull for any build due to the save bonus vs spells.

But...... God Dragon? Come on....

 

[Lacrymas]

CoT offers its own saves without being CHA dependent. Could've easily gone just 14 CHA and then all STR. Yeah, it won't offer as much saves as Paladin or Blackguard (at least not passively), but it would be better than this build IMO. One of the reasons being he doesn't have enough WIS to get Paladin spells, so no Holy Avenger, no Freedom, no Prayer, no Divine Favor, no Aura of Glory, no Death Ward. I don't know if there's any point in getting Sorc levels in epic, since the useful spells at that point would be at at least 30th level, if not higher. His buffs would also be very easy to dispel. Concentration helps with resisting Taunt.

 

[Haplo]

Dispelling is a problem, of course. But he would get usefull spells like Haste or Displacement at level 23/24, Elemental Shield, Stoneskin, Lesser Breach, Ice Storm and/or Lesser Storm at 25/26, Acid Sheath, Bigby Interposing, Lesser Mindblank, Lesser Mantle and/or Firebrand at 27/28, Bigby Forcefull, True Seeing, Greater Storm, Greater Breach, Greater Stoneskin, and/or Flash to Stone at 29/30 and so on.

You're also ignoring Divine Might/Shield. Admittedly without the Epic version from NWN2, those don't last long, but still can be very valuable with high Charisma. Personally I prefer Paladin to CoT for this kind of build.