NWN Neverwinter Nights (NWN & NWN2) Modules Thread

[Lhynn]

Barb/Rogue/Blackguard sounds cool. Wouldn't Barb/Assassin/Blackguard be better, though? The only thing you don't get is Evasion, but you get the other goodies the Assassin gives.

Few levels for it to matter, and rogue has more base skill points and evasion is one of the best class features in the game. Tho to be honest i havent played either, it was just a friends favorite build and it was pretty impressive.

 

[hell bovine]

Only dedicated powergamers would automatically pick the strongest class as their favorite. Weak classes can sometimes be fun to play. In any case in NWN there is not really any one strongest class anyway, since the best builds are multi-classes. From a powerbuilding perspective, there is almost never a good reason to play a character with less than three classes.

Depends on the context. If you play high level campaigns or PWs, then sure. But plenty of mods are low level adventures, where that one more caster level can make quite the difference, and where you might not get the full benefits of mutliclassing.

 

[Lhynn]

Only dedicated powergamers would automatically pick the strongest class as their favorite. Weak classes can sometimes be fun to play. In any case in NWN there is not really any one strongest class anyway, since the best builds are multi-classes. From a powerbuilding perspective, there is almost never a good reason to play a character with less than three classes.

In defense of rogues (my own favorite) they are quite effective if you know how to play them. Sneak attack can do massive damage against anything not immune. Use Magic Device can practically turn them into casters on top of their other talents, among other advantages. Setting a huge pile of traps can easily defeat lots of enemies who would be a nightmare for almost any other class (which is very cheesy of course, but if we are talking about powerbuilds cheese is the point). If DEX based they can attain an extremely high AC by epic levels, and on top of feats like evasion will be better tanks than the classes designed to tank. Being DEX-based also means they will be decent with ranged weapons even if that is not a primary focus, and can readily switch to them if needed for some special purpose. Rogues are the most natural fit with Shadowdancers, and Hide in Plain Sight is one of the games most OP feats, especially if combined with Sneak Attack. They also have more non-combat skills than any other class, in the rare modules in which non-combat skills are important.

Pure Barbarian is not ideal, but then pure anything is not ideal (see above about multi-classing). Rogue/Barbarian or Barbarian/Bard/RDD is not so bad. The former even somewhat fits the "Conan" archetype that inspired the Barbarian class, since Conan spent part of his career as a thief. Warrior classes in general in NWN tend to compare poorly to Clerics as melee combatants (which is stupid, but that was how the rules were written), and thus are generally most useful as "mix-ins" for builds centered around something else.

Whether Wizard or Sorcerer makes the better mage is highly dependent on environment. Sorcerers are generally thought to be a bit stronger in PvP, for whatever that is worth.

My dex based pure monk was p. awesome.

The PRC pack should have gotten added to the nwn EE, it gave a TON of possibilities for character building.

 

[Immortal]

RDD is OP shit. Anyone voting that should be IP Banned.

 

[rogueknight333]

Barb/Rogue/Blackguard sounds cool. Wouldn't Barb/Assassin/Blackguard be better, though? The only thing you don't get is Evasion, but you get the other goodies the Assassin gives.

Assassin is actually rather poor compared to rogue, outside of rather special circumstances. In addition to Evasion, you lose 4 skill points per level, cannot take it at Lvl 1 and thus lose the massive starting skill dump of Rogue, and if using something like Barbarian as a base class will need to take Hide & Move Silently (class prerequisites) as cross-class skills, losing even more points. You also lose out on the special bonus feats rogues get at Lvl 10+, and thus cannot qualify for Epic Dodge. In compensation you do not get much beyond a few 1/day spells, which many rogues can find a way to cast anyway by using UMD, and Death Attack Paralysis. The latter can sometimes be nice, but more often it is not. In a typical case trashmobs die so quickly the paralysis is redundant, and bosses are immune.

Depends on the context. If you play high level campaigns or PWs, then sure. But plenty of mods are low level adventures, where that one more caster level can make quite the difference, and where you might not get the full benefits of mutliclassing.

True enough, if we were talking about, say, Lvl 10 builds it would be a different story, especially for casters.

My dex based pure monk was p. awesome.

The PRC pack should have gotten added to the nwn EE, it gave a TON of possibilities for character building.

The point is not that single-classed chars are necessarily all that bad, just that they are not, as a general rule, perfectly optimized. For most purposes, of course, they do not need to be.

Personally, I hope the EE does NOT add a lot of new prestige classes and the like into the base game, as it would retroactively unbalance the combat in existing modules that would not have been designed with their capabilities in mind. They do seem to be taking some measures to make it easier for builders to make their own custom classes, which is a much better approach.

 

[Lhynn]

Personally, I hope the EE does NOT add a lot of new prestige classes and the like into the base game, as it would retroactively unbalance the combat in existing modules that would not have been designed with their capabilities in mind. They do seem to be taking some measures to make it easier for builders to make their own custom classes, which is a much better approach.

I find the benefits of a larger pool of options at character creation offset any benefits to balance in single player games. Its great for replayability, and theres such disparity between characters in this game, that the content you make to challenge some will be impossible to others, and could be trivial for a few.
You could make a selection of the most interesting classes with mechanics that mesh well with the existing ones. As i remember the PRC had a bunch of classes that broke all the time or that felt very incomplete. But overall more variety = more fun in this game.

 

[Nerevar]

One cool thing would be instead of just RDD you can pick colour of dragon that way you can pick Black Dragon Disciple for the popular Sorc/BG/RDD build and be EVIL!

 

[Lacrymas]

In the PNP you can choose your color.

 

[rogueknight333]

...theres such disparity between characters in this game, that the content you make to challenge some will be impossible to others, and could be trivial for a few...

Well, in my module building I go to a great deal of effort and trouble precisely to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and provide encounters that are reasonably challenging without being impossible for any reasonable build, so I am naturally a bit leery of anything that is likely to make this task harder. Furthermore, if character building options become so extensive that any sort of balance becomes impossible, they can actually end up providing less variety that is actually meaningful, as either most players end up using only a handful of the most OP classes and ignore everything else, or the designers find it necessary to make all encounters easy and generic lest some weak class prove unable to handle them. Content (combat related or otherwise) tailored to specific classes or other character features becomes harder to include if there are too many of them, again with the result that the game becomes more generic and boring, as every character tends more and more to be treated alike and not assigned tasks that call for any unique capabilities to actually be used.

In any case, I am not saying that a wide variety of character building options is a bad thing in general. I like having a lot of character building choices too, provided it is not carried to a ridiculous extreme. What I am objecting to is retroactively adding a lot of new classes, races, spells etc. into a game most of the content for which was not designed with those particular build options in mind. That could potentially introduce a lot of problems (and not just to combat balance but to other things like class-specific quests, providing proper gear and interesting items, etc.).

 

[Nerevar]

Yeah I could see how them adding more classes to the game would mess up SF considering how much variables there are to check even racial ones! Even class buffs and nerfs could have a big impact.

 

[Immortal]

...theres such disparity between characters in this game, that the content you make to challenge some will be impossible to others, and could be trivial for a few...

Well, in my module building I go to a great deal of effort and trouble precisely to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and provide encounters that are reasonably challenging without being impossible for any reasonable build, so I am naturally a bit leery of anything that is likely to make this task harder. Furthermore, if character building options become so extensive that any sort of balance becomes impossible, they can actually end up providing less variety that is actually meaningful, as either most players end up using only a handful of the most OP classes and ignore everything else, or the designers find it necessary to make all encounters easy and generic lest some weak class prove unable to handle them. Content (combat related or otherwise) tailored to specific classes or other character features becomes harder to include if there are too many of them, again with the result that the game becomes more generic and boring, as every character tends more and more to be treated alike and not assigned tasks that call for any unique capabilities to actually be used.

In any case, I am not saying that a wide variety of character building options is a bad thing in general. I like having a lot of character building choices too, provided it is not carried to a ridiculous extreme. What I am objecting to is retroactively adding a lot of new classes, races, spells etc. into a game most of the content for which was not designed with those particular build options in mind. That could potentially introduce a lot of problems (and not just to combat balance but to other things like class-specific quests, providing proper gear and interesting items, etc.).

TL;DR:
It's difficult to balance a game that was designed around 5 drunk guys rolling dice and making shit up as they go.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Strife in Grimbone is pretty fun men. Good starter module.

 

[Lhynn]

Well, in my module building I go to a great deal of effort and trouble precisely to prevent this sort of thing from happening, and provide encounters that are reasonably challenging without being impossible for any reasonable build, so I am naturally a bit leery of anything that is likely to make this task harder.

Most modules arent balanced tho. So your reasons are p. much your own.

Furthermore, if character building options become so extensive that any sort of balance becomes impossible, they can actually end up providing less variety that is actually meaningful, as either most players end up using only a handful of the most OP classes and ignore everything else

Youd think this is true, but its actually entirely wrong, the opposite is true. Actually variety ends up being very healthy in every rpg. Ive played on PRC PWs and found that i was always alone in my build of choice. Sure, a few wont care and will use cookie cutter builds, but they would do the exact same no matter what. To others, the people that enjoy planning and building characters its heaven.

or the designers find it necessary to make all encounters easy and generic lest some weak class prove unable to handle them.

Which is the case for almost every nwn module i have played. There are very few exceptions. Most notably the ones that enforce all sorts of limitations at the start.

Content (combat related or otherwise) tailored to specific classes or other character features becomes harder to include if there are too many of them, again with the result that the game becomes more generic and boring as every character tends more and more to be treated alike and not assigned tasks that call for any unique capabilities to actually be used.

This is only true if you add new class systems (like psions). Most classes are just variants of other classes with a small twist, like the thief and the assassin, and the factotum.
Also you could always make your own systems, like adam miller did with the psi stone, the companions or the TCG.
While i know you strive to provide content for all classes, thats not the case with most devs.

What I am objecting to is retroactively adding a lot of new classes, races, spells etc. into a game most of the content for which was not designed with those particular build options in mind. That could potentially introduce a lot of problems (and not just to combat balance but to other things like class-specific quests, providing proper gear and interesting items, etc.).

Well, we both know this isnt a problem in nwn, or in 3rd edition as a whole really, there are very few if any class features that disqualify other classes from participating on the content.
From a narrative standpoint i can think of RDD wings, druid shapeshifting, and monks tongue of the sun and moon. And id be surprised if you made a scenario for the druid, let alone the other two cases.

Classes can rougly be divided into 3 archtypes, martial, skillmonkeys and spellcasters. For example you can be certain that if you design content for sneaky characters, there will be a bunch of classes that will quality, you dont need to design it specially for rogues.

 

[Lilura]

rogueknight333, meet Lhynn, multi-quoter extraordinaire.

 

[rogueknight333]

Most modules arent balanced tho. So your reasons are p. much your own.

So most are so broken it does not really matter if we wreck them more? Perhaps so, though a bit hard on the few that are not broken.

Youd think this is true, but its actually entirely wrong, the opposite is true...

You will note that I gave this as only one possible response. I grant it is probably more common in a competitive multiplayer environment, and less so in others.

...To others, the people that enjoy planning and building characters its heaven.

I consider myself to be someone who greatly enjoys planning and building characters, and so I like character systems with some complexity to them, but if there is no balance then to my mind it takes all the fun out of it. A situation where I can just take OP class X and not worry about anything, or the game is such a cakewalk I could just have chosen my stats at random and still been fine renders all that character designing rather pointless. Character designing is a lot more intersesting when it actually matters, when playing one character rather than another will force you to adopt different combat tactics or otherwise play the game in a different way.

Which is the case for almost every nwn module i have played. There are very few exceptions. Most notably the ones that enforce all sorts of limitations at the start.

So a problem I predicted would likely be a common result of paying no attention to combat balance is in fact quite common among modules produced by people who tend not to pay attention to combat balance. Is pointing this out supposed to refute some claim of mine?

This is only true if you add new class systems (like psions). Most classes are just variants of other classes with a small twist, like the thief and the assassin, and the factotum...Classes can rougly be divided into 3 archtypes, martial, skillmonkeys and spellcasters. For example you can be certain that if you design content for sneaky characters, there will be a bunch of classes that will quality, you dont need to design it specially for rogues.

So endless variety is fine because it will just be superficial anyway? To the extent that is true, it would seem to destroy much of its value. A smaller number of classes with truly meaningful variety among them would seem to offer more than a large number that differ only in minor details, and play through the game in the same way as a host of other classes.

...From a narrative standpoint i can think of RDD wings, druid shapeshifting, and monks tongue of the sun and moon. And id be surprised if you made a scenario for the druid, let alone the other two cases...

There are a few special options for some shifted/polymorphed forms in Swordflight, though I admit they are not that significant. The rarity of providing that sort of content though would seem to illustrate my point above. If, say, 20% of a game's available classes are shapeshifters, it will be very much worth a developer's time to design special content for shapeshifters. If they make up only 5% then it will be much less so. If they are only 1%, it becomes completely impractical.

rogueknight333, meet Lhynn, multi-quoter extraordinaire.

I can multi-quote too! I think...not sure I can keep up.

 

[Immortal]

So endless variety is fine because it will just be superficial anyway? To the extent that is true, it would seem to destroy much of its value. A smaller number of classes with truly meaningful variety among them would seem to offer more than a large number that differ only in minor details, and play through the game in the same way as a host of other classes.

Are you still talking about Combat Balance or Module Design In General?

When it comes to module design, you really get to funnel all these prc's and classes through the great filter known as skills. You don't really need to design your module around classes or prcs, or possible future prc's as long as the skill requirements are the same.

If you make some side content that requires lockpick / heal / diplomacy. The character either has that or they don't. Class skill or not. You could design specific content around mages / rogues if you want, but usually that can be substituted with stealth or spellcraft checks. (Although, there are still a fair amount of worthless skills that are probably just better off disabled.)

I would leave class specific stuff to a module who actually tailored their story around such. Rogue / Mage based modules are amazingly fun and let you fully live that experience out to the max. Even if NWN only had 4 classes, you would be working yourself to the bone trying to give a full meaningful experience to all 4. That is insane creep scope.

 

[Lhynn]

I consider myself to be someone who greatly enjoys planning and building characters, and so I like character systems with some complexity to them, but if there is no balance then to my mind it takes all the fun out of it. A situation where I can just take OP class X and not worry about anything

Most classes have built in weaknesses, even on the PRC, outside of a few broken feats or classes that could be taken out or fixed, most of them are ready to be used out of the box.

Character designing is a lot more intersesting when it actually matters, when playing one character rather than another will force you to adopt different combat tactics or otherwise play the game in a different way.

Actually character building is usually fun just for its own sake. its true that its more interesting when there are actual stakes on it, but as i said, most nwn modules are easy as shit and that didnt stop people from having fun. Nwn success wasnt built on the back of your module.

So a problem I predicted would likely be a common result of paying no attention to combat balance is in fact quite common among modules produced by people who tend not to pay attention to combat balance. Is pointing this out supposed to refute some claim of mine?

Merely pointing out that your needs as a developer are secondary to your players fun. I have noted that you dont want more classes because it would make it harder for you, but thats not a good reason not to have them.

So endless variety is fine because it will just be superficial anyway? To the extent that is true, it would seem to destroy much of its value. A smaller number of classes with truly meaningful variety among them would seem to offer more than a large number that differ only in minor details, and play through the game in the same way as a host of other classes.

We are back on this point. You are a single guy. The addition of the PRC content, while annoying to you, would be a great boon to every player under the sun.

There are a few special options for some shifted/polymorphed forms in Swordflight, though I admit they are not that significant. The rarity of providing that sort of content though would seem to illustrate my point above. If, say, 20% of a game's available classes are shapeshifters, it will be very much worth a developer's time to design special content for shapeshifters. If they make up only 5% then it will be much less so. If they are only 1%, it becomes completely impractical.

There are plenty of shapeshifting classes if you allow them to be. Most casters can shapeshift in a fashion, also everyone that has UMD, and you could even go as far as to either sell or place an item that could help you with those interactions provided you sacrificed resources that could have gone somewhere else instead. Like maybe a rare item, or a favor from someone powerful narratively speaking. Then you could kill two birds with one stone.
There are ways to award C&C without enforcing class restrictions. Heck, considering the class variety and multiclassing in nwn going this way is basically shooting yourself in the foot. As Immortal explained above.

 

[Lacrymas]

I actually agree with rogueknight, but from a different perspective, creativity is not endless in a given situation, you can't write an endless (figuratively) book that is full of original ideas and interesting characters that makes sense and doesn't branch off to other books. Same with classes, you can't design classes forever in the same ruleset that are going to be wildly different from one another, at one point you are going to start repeating yourself with very few changes, making everyone feel samey and generic. That's the problem from the player's side, the problem from the dev side is balancing, so nobody wins by having endless (again, figuratively) classes to choose from. You also don't need a game to create concept builds, you can do that on your own even without a ruleset. If you say that without a ruleset it's pointless, then we are back at the limited creativity for such. It's a fundamental human "flaw", not an issue with any specific ruleset, so it's insurmountable.

If having a bajillion classes/choices that feel distinct was realistic and actually possible, then yeah, the more the merrier from the player's side, but it's not.

 

[Lhynn]

I actually agree with rogueknight

Cant say im surprised.

but from a different perspective, creativity is not endless in a given situation, you can't write an endless (figuratively) book that is full of original ideas and interesting characters that makes sense and doesn't branch off to other books.

No one is asking you to. There are like 4 different archtypes in Dnd and most characters fit either one or two of those, with the very rare exception fitting 3 of them. No matter how much class variety you have, you can be sure any given class in nwn will fit said archtypes

Same with classes, you can't design classes forever in the same ruleset that are going to be wildly different from one another

Yeah you can. But thats not what we are discussing here.

at one point you are going to start repeating yourself with very few changes, making everyone feel samey and generic.

This is actually not true. Theres nothing wrong with two classes being alike but flavored differently.

That's the problem from the player's side, the problem from the dev side is balancing, so nobody wins by having endless (again, figuratively) classes to choose from.

And this is false. Everyone wins by having more content, especially if its good, tested content. And most PRC content is.

You also don't need a game to create concept builds, you can do that on your own even without a ruleset.

You do need a game to create a concept build if you want to play said concept build on a game and it isnt available. You are starting to sound like a deranged lefty, please speak in a coherent manner.

If you say that without a ruleset it's pointless, then we are back at the limited creativity for such. It's a fundamental human "flaw", not an issue with any specific ruleset, so it's insurmountable.

And you completely lost me.

If having a bajillion classes/choices that feel distinct was realistic and actually possible, then yeah, the more the merrier from the player's side, but it's not.

First, yes it is, but this isnt what we are discussing here. And second, why would anyone aim for a bajillion? you are taking my argument to such a retarded extreme as to not make any sense, and if you have to do that to prove me wrong, you have already lost the argument.

 

[Lacrymas]

What is there to not understand? Human creativity is finite in a given situation, you can't create endlessly for the same "piece" while still remaining fresh and original. And about that "deranged lefty" comment - you said creating builds was for its own sake, so why do you need a game for that? Just create whatever character concept you want since there's no need to play them.

How many options do you realistically want? As much as possible? Then that's a bajillion right there, but even if you say that's a strawman, the "too many" line gets crossed much earlier than you think. Just look at PoE, 11 classes, but already all of them are samey. I know you'll blame Josh or Obsidian for this, but it's not their fault entirely.

 

[Lhynn]

What is there to not understand? Human creativity is finite in a given situation, you can't create endlessly for the same "piece" while still remaining fresh and original.

Yes you can, but its not the discussion at hand. If you want to philosophize about creativity then you can in a thread about that.

you said creating builds was for its own sake, so why do you need a game for that?

To test it of course.
Ill put it in very simple terms: even if you dont want to eat the meal you just cooked, because its a hobby or practice, you still want to see hows the flavor.

How many options do you realistically want? As much as possible?

We are talking about a known quantity.

 

[Popiel]

We are talking about a known quantity.

This pack is a piece of shit designed for morons who like their games and their modding actvity to resemble this big, deformed, swollen mass that is Elder Scrolls modding scene and modding packs which put EVERYTHING into themselves to appease idiots.

Go away.

Fight the good fight rogueknight333.

 

[Jason Liang]

There's a delicate balance between NWN/ 3E's 13 Core classes and the Prestige classes. We had a similar debate over at the ToEE Temple thread, where we were discussing adding official PnP core variant and Prestige classes. It's not cost free; while every class gives the player more options, it also has the cost of unbalancing the game system more. Unbalance the game's math too much and you end up with a shit rule set like Pillars, and I don't think anyone wants that.

In the end the only variant that I would really like see implemented is alternate Totemic animals for Barbarians. This allows Barbarians more flexibility by changing their +1 skill check vs. traps to a different focus (similar to Wizard specialization or Cleric domains). Barb is arguably the only core class that could use a makeover to make it more attractive and I like the new concept a lot.

There are a lot of "cool" variants (martial rogues that take fighter bonus feats instead of +1d6 sneak attack feats, martial wizards that choose from the fighter feat pool instead of the wizard feat pool for their bonus feats) but overall it doesn't make the game better, just gives the player more options to min/max. There's a cost to every change which must be carefully deliberated on a case by case basis.

 

[calgary.alberta]

Feel like this is a bad spot to post this but I need an answer.
Neverwinter Nights 2, I get constant crashes only using quick saves, anyone else experiences this?
Windows 10 Fall Update
Nivida 1070
Normal shit beyond that.

 

[rogueknight333]

Are you still talking about Combat Balance or Module Design In General?

When it comes to module design, you really get to funnel all these prc's and classes through the great filter known as skills. You don't really need to design your module around classes or prcs, or possible future prc's as long as the skill requirements are the same...

I was primarily talking about combat balance but it seems to have segued into a somewhat broader discussion. I actually do use skills as the basis for most of the character-specific content one can access, and there are many situations where a character with an atypical skillset for his class can access content that was mainly intended for other classes, but there are some cases where formal classes can matter. In very general terms, how char-specific content is implemented depends on whether the game system uses a skill-based build system, where players pick the skills they want and in effect define their own class, or a more rigid class based system where classes are pre-defined (at least to some extent) and clearly distinct. 3E is a muddled hybrid system that combines elements of both of these, so the methods for delivering class/skill specific content sometimes get a bit muddled too.

...Nwn success wasnt built on the back of your module...Merely pointing out that your needs as a developer are secondary to your players fun. I have noted that you dont want more classes because it would make it harder for you...The addition of the PRC content, while annoying to you, would be a great boon to every player under the sun...

This would seem to reflect a considerable misunderstanding. I am well aware that my modules cater to a niche audience. It also quite possible the EE will end up breaking them anyway for some completely unrelated and more technical reason. My remarks are based on what I believe, mistakenly or not, to be good for the game as a whole. There may not be that many modules that have decent combat balance, or decent class-specific content, but they include more than just mine and probably include a disproportionate number of the good ones. Speaking purely as a player, I would not want NWN to become a feature-bloated mess like NWN2.

In any case, if one wants to use PRC content, the PRC already exists, which illustrates a much better way to do address the issue: just help modders make their own custom classes, if they want to do that, and use them where appropriate, rather than shoe-horning them into modules where they are not. There are certainly engine limitations that make implementing some classes from PnP particularly difficult, and that indeed would be a reasonable thing for an EE to address.

Feel like this is a bad spot to post this but I need an answer.
Neverwinter Nights 2, I get constant crashes only using quick saves, anyone else experiences this? ...

I would not be much help with NWN2 but if you cannot get a good answer here you might want to check out the Neverwinter Vault. Many people there with reams of technical know-how concerning both games.