Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Preview Oblivion preview at Gaming Target

Discussion in 'News & Content Feedback' started by Spazmo, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    Oooh right. I know what you're talking about now. That cat in the bar in Pelagiad. Forgot about her, she's the only developed character in the game. The only character that you can have an actual affect on and change (that whole thing with her drugged-up husband). That's what I'm talking about, more of that stuff where the characters and/or the gameworld shows you that you've affected them by more than just giving you gold and a slight dispostion raise.

    For instance, the original Khajiit I thought you might be talking about, is a perfect example of a failed opportunity. There's a woman wandering around outside of Caldera who lost the family jewels (don't get any funny ideas, they're actually real jewels). She tells you this Khajiit bandit stole them from here (you can learn more about the guy by asking the townsfolk). So, you head to his cave and have a little talk with him. He agrees to give you the jewels if you bring him back half of the reward the lady gives you. You can't bully him into giving you the jewels, no, you just accept automatically. You have the wonderful Morrowind choice of killing him after though. But anyways, you accept and he tells you that you'd better bring his part of the money back because he's got people who will make sure you pay if you don't. So, you go back to the woman and get the reward. You can leave right then and never talk to the Khajiit again and nothing will happen. No guys come to jump you for the cash. But let's say you go back and give him the gold. He tells you thanks, you're an excellent thief and he would love to work together with you again sometime on something bigger. Too bad you never get to work together with him again, even if you go back to visit him after doing every quest in the whole fucking game. Nothing. So, you just spent all this time walking back and forth to get 100 gold. You never see the lady again (well, you do, but she stays in the same spot and only says "thank you"). You don't gain any rep with nobles, townsfolk, thieves, or anything else. You don't get to work with this outlaw and gain infamy. Hell, you can't even tell the guards where he is (the townsfolk can tell you he had a bounty on his head and the guards have been after him for a long time). You can't even kill the guy and report it to the guards to get said bounty.

    Pointless.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Balor Arcane

    Balor
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    5,182
    Location:
    Russia
    Anyway, it's all about freedom in RPG.
    There are two types of freedom that are often get confused:

    "Freedom from ... " and
    "Freedom for ... ".

    Freedom from - it's usually means being free from things that restrain you... like no ' invisible boundaries' in levels, being free to roam the game world anyhow you like it, choose any class, use any skill, etc.

    However, all those freedoms are only prerequisites for the grand "Freedom for ..."'s.
    I.e. freedom to be a bad guy, a good guy, a thief, a mage, etc.
    To utilize that sort of freedom, though, you must be interested in it. It must make some sort of change, show you are not being 'a crier in a desert'.

    So, when you are not free in terms of 'Freedom from ..." - it's like you are walking a narrow path in a deep ravine, with sheer cliffs to both sides. Walking left and right is impossible.

    But when you don't have "freedom for ... " it's like you walking in a middle of a desert. You can walk left, right, jump about in circles... you sure can, but it just doesn't make any difference.

    A proper roleplay only possible when the game support your attempts of doing so, encourages it. Of course, no CRPG can have 100%, free-form role-play... however... it can be possible to have enough freedoms to make it as close to everyone as it’s possible, like integrals can be used to calculate complex surfaces with a high degree of precision. P:T, for instance, did that rather good.

    So, Morrowind what that sort of desert. It sure had a lot of freedom... but freedom of what?
    Run around exploring, completeing pointless FedEx quests, collecting artifacts, rising your skills?
    It is sure fun, I admit. It’s just not RPG.
    Replace artifacts with ‘bonuses’ and ‘skill points’ with ‘abstract points’ - and you have a typical arcade, right.

    Roleplay is possible only when the world properly reacts to your actions, when you can have opportunities to develop your character as a person, not skill++.
    Heck, what is dialogue? When a character reacts to what you’ve said, you, in turn, to what he said, etc.
    MW was like a typical MMORPG - a lot of ground to explore, a lot of stuff to do, items to collect, bosses to kill... but strongly discourages roleplay.
    So, why do we need an other single-player MMORPG? I can download a WoW simulator, there are must be rather well-developed by now, and run around, rising stats, doing quests.
    Rather boring, though.
    Again, why do we need a MMORPG with all the bad sides of them, (besides leet speak, perhaps) but no positive ones?
     
    ^ Top  
  3. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    Agreed, Balor. Good points.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Rat Keeng Liturgist

    Rat Keeng
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    869
    How is joining the mutants and getting the ending associated with doing that, anything like not doing shit in Morrowind, and never getting any ending at all? If anyone's comparing apples and oranges, it's you, since the proper comparison would be joining the 6th House in MW. And just to refresh our memories, that's Dagoth Ur's "faction" if you will, the faction you're invited to join two times during the game, but can never actually join, no matter how much you want to. Of course this falls perfectly in line with what angler said about the family jewels quest, so i guess we can at least commend Morrowind for being consistent, in it's total lack of choice and consequence.

    Just because you only know of one way to get it, doesn't mean there isn't more ways to get it. I've gotten it by slaughtering all the ghouls and just taking it. I've also gotten it by repairing a water pump i think it was, and getting the water chip in return since they didn't need it anymore, that's two ways already. I bet you could also sneak in and steal it, though i've not much experience with thieves.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,329
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    But thats my point. You can do the samething in MW. I've probably got the waterchip all the different possible ways before you were even born. Likewise I can get the dwemer box by stealth, or combat too.

    BTW, there is a serious bug with stealth in FO, in that you totally cheat using stealth in FO during TB mode, since the computer only checks for you at end points. Hence, I am not sure stealth was ever a viable option. Frankly I exploited this like crazy and snuck by way more then I probably should of.

    Nevertheless, I have already stated MW has non-existing dialogue and i doubt this will change in the future.
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    No you can't. The guy attacks you as soon as you enter the small room, like every other bandit in the Morrowind world.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Rat Keeng Liturgist

    Rat Keeng
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    869
    I could never sneak past anyone, i had a sneak skill of 30, maybe 35 can't remember exactly, and everyone always caught me. I had restarted shortly after starting for the first time, so i knew i had to get the box. In my naivity, i went straigth to the ruins to pick it up, but alas, it was magically fastened to the shelves, no doubt contained by mysterious dwemer magics, that got conveniently dispelled right about the time i went back, and got the quest from that git.
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,480
    True, more of that kind of thing would be nice for Oblivion, and we'll have to wait to find out.

    Some parts of the game were good, I think, like the whole thing with Fargoth and the guy in that store in Seyda Neen. After playing for a while I did start to get bored of it. But, I would say and I'm sure you must agree that when you first started playing and for the first few months you must have been pretty into the game.

    But the original argument was about Morrowind being linear, and I don't think it is, because you are not restrained or restricted to doing anything. The main quest is just a part of the game as a whole.
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    I hated Seyda Neen. It gave you this false impression that you'd be getting all these cool quests. When I did that Fargoth quest, watching him sneak around at night, and then ending up betraying him, that was really neat. When I found the tax collector, and had to make a decision on whether I was going to beat the murderer into a pulp or if I would believe his story and let him live, that was also really cool. Unfortunately, the rest of the game isn't like that, and that's what I hate. My initial impression with Seyda Neen was "Holy crap! This game is going to blow Daggerfall right out of the freakin' water!" Too bad the rest of the quests weren't like that, barring a very select few.

    I was playing the game alot to see if it went anywhere. Morrowind was the first game I've ever played where I reached a point that I actually felt like I was wasting my time. I can still remember it too. My Redgard hero in an ugly mixed suit of armor setting out to become the Telvanni Hortator after completing the other two... standing on top of a hill looking over the dull grey landscape. I actually said to myself "Why the fuck am I playing this for?" I deleted the game off of my harddrive and didn't touch it again for around a year and a half. That's when I picked it up again over the summer and, with nothing else to do, proceeded to complete every quest in the game (again, barring the Thieves and Morag Tong, although I was a member of both and actually did a few Thieves quests). I did test a bunch of mods out first, but I played through the vanilla game. I also played through the Tribunal main quest (although not all the side quests). IMO, Tribunal should have been the main quest. Fuck that Dagoth Ur prophecy shit. That's boring and clichéd. Tribunal's story was more in line and closely related with Daggerfall's, in my opinion. Tribunal is the true TES 3 sequel to Daggerfall.

    What did I discover throughout my adventures in Vvardenfell? Bagging groceries is more entralling than playing Morrowind. You also make real money and have a better sense of accomplishment :lol:. I'll never pick that game up again.

    Morrowind is freeform. As in, you can run around and do quests in any order. It is certainly not non-linear, as you have no choices.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,480
    Ah, this is going in circles. This is what's going to happen. My reply to this would be "yes you do, you can do the main quest, you can join a guild, you can bl;ah blah blah" and then you will say "but those things have no effect on the world so they are blah blah" and then we'll get back into the whole argument that we've just finished and the CIRCLE OF RPGCODEX LIFE will continue forever.
     
    ^ Top  
  11. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    Yes, because we're all really silly.

    And circles are fun!
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Greatatlantic Erudite

    Greatatlantic
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,683
    Location:
    The Heart of It All
    @ Balor, excellent analysis. Got anything about why CCCP collapsed?

    Anyways, I look forward to Oblivion like a Jew looks forward to Christmas. It promises to be a fun distraction, but nothing to celebrate. Morrowind was the sort of game I could play on weekend mornings when I really had nothing better to do, and since there's no emotional attachment I can quit easily if something comes up.
     
    ^ Top  
  13. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,329
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    I use invisibility. And then cast almsivi intervention.

    PWND!!!!
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    Whatever floats your boat.

    I would have prefered there being a backdoor or a hole you could crawl under to sneak behind him and pick it up. If you went in the front door, he should have approached you and started a conversation. It would have been cool if he demanded money or your life. Then, you would have had the option to use your l33t persuasion skills to convince him it would be in his best interest to give the box to you, you could have just gave in and paid him the money to avoid a confrontation, or... of course... you could just say "I'll kill you for it. ARGHHHH!"

    That's how I would have done it, at least.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,329
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Thats were the elder scrolls really fails compared to FO. The lack of being able to reason, and use dialogue to deal with many humans. And using traditional sneak, should have been more viable for the main quest and not just the rogue quest. Nevertheless, a non combat option can be used in a lot of situations such as these.

    Persuasion as useless as it is, is actually quite necessary. Hows that for a contradiction... Still I find that to do a lot of things its often necessary to have a decent speechcaft skill.

    I think Bioware has the opposite problem. They will allow different character to approach the dwemer box situation different ways. But then force a magical scripted event, that forces you into an idiot man's plot just so Gayder can ramble on with his l33t character skills, and then force you into an uncomfortable combat situation. Worst of both worlds.
     
    ^ Top  
  16. Section8 Erudite

    Section8
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,321
    Location:
    Wardenclyffe
    What's with the magicky-jiggery-pokery? That's not stealth.
     
    ^ Top  
  17. triCritical Erudite

    triCritical
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2003
    Messages:
    1,329
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    LOL, I should put an asterick by my stealth.
     
    ^ Top  
  18. DarkUnderlord Professional Throne Sitter

    DarkUnderlord
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2002
    Messages:
    25,792
    See what developers are doing? You just throw enough lame side quests at the kiddies these days and they get so confused the poor blighters don't know what to do with themselves.
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Tintin Arbiter

    Tintin
    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2005
    Messages:
    1,480
    Yeah, all those guilds and factions available = lame side quests :roll:
     
    ^ Top  
  20. Dark Elf Erudite

    Dark Elf
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,617
    Location:
    Sweden
    When all those guilds and factions available only serve as lame quest dispensers a' la Pez, then yes.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. TheGreatGodPan Arbiter

    TheGreatGodPan
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,762
    Rather than linear vs. non-linear we should have a continuum of linearity that would have say, Dragon's Lair, on one end and notepad at the other.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. Rat Keeng Liturgist

    Rat Keeng
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2002
    Messages:
    869
    Hah! That's awesome. I wonder how many games it'll take Bethesda to completely eliminate the main plotline, and just do a freeform exploration game with tons of factions and all that tripe that goes with it. Why bother with an intricate story, if you can play dressup with fancy armor, right? :)

    What about a game like Diablo? Is that considered non-linear as well these days? Am i just getting old and out of touch, with what the current definition of non-linear is?
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Dark Elf Erudite

    Dark Elf
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2004
    Messages:
    1,617
    Location:
    Sweden
    The original Super Mario Bros didn't allow you to go backwards through the levels, so it was linear.

    SMB 2 & 3 & World etc allowed you to do so, and hence they are to be considered non-linear RPG's.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Psilon Erudite

    Psilon
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Messages:
    2,018
    Location:
    Codex retirement
    Actually, that could be interesting. 4X and other strategy games have had inherent time limits for a while now. (For example, Civ 1 retired you by 2100, and Strange Adventures in Infinite Space shut you down after 10 years.) Why not RPGs? You have X in-game years to do whatever, at which point you're cut off forcefully and given a score.

    Then again, NetHack does that, and your life is usually measured in minutes there.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Chefe Erudite

    Chefe
    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,731
    Yes, but you had to go through the levels in a linear fashion, and you had to do them one after the other.

    Mario 64 let you accomplish different goals in the levels, and you could go to them in any order provided you had the correct number of stars. Therefore, Mario 64 is a true non-linear RPG.
     
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.