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[Rat Keeng]

Bah, all this old bullshit about Morrowind being non-linear. That's like reading GTA reviews, talking about how incredibly non-linear San Andreas is. Being able to piss about and do things unrelated to quests has nothing to do with non-linearity. And if it had, how the hell would you define a linear game anyway?

discovering, adventuring, collecting, rising in guilds, etc. and that part IS entirely non-linear.

You can't call the guild quests non-linear, you just can't. Discovering, adventuring, collecting, these aspects, isolated by themselves, are by definition non-linear, how would you make those things linear? Unless it's a side-scrolling platform game, how is exploring ever linear? Being given the freedom to do whatever you want in a big game world is a feature, and however miraculously fantastic this feature may have been implemented, it does not constitute non-linear gameplay, nor does it mean Morrowind is a non-linear game.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Bah, all this old bullshit about Morrowind being non-linear. That's like reading GTA reviews, talking about how incredibly non-linear San Andreas is. Being able to piss about and do things unrelated to quests has nothing to do with non-linearity. And if it had, how the hell would you define a linear game anyway?

GTA2 was more non-linear. You could pick and choose which missions you wanted to do instead of following any kind of storyline, or even do none of them. I remember just fooling around one time and getting enough cash to leave the first city without ever taking a mission.

 

[corvax]

gta2 is non linear almost in the same way morrowind is. you pick your factions and go from then. the final goal doesn't change, rack up ### of points. however in morrowind you could also solve a number of quests in different ways - something you can't do in gta2.

 

[triCritical]

Bah, all this old bullshit about Morrowind being non-linear. That's like reading GTA reviews, talking about how incredibly non-linear San Andreas is. Being able to piss about and do things unrelated to quests has nothing to do with non-linearity. And if it had, how the hell would you define a linear game anyway?

discovering, adventuring, collecting, rising in guilds, etc. and that part IS entirely non-linear.

You can't call the guild quests non-linear, you just can't. Discovering, adventuring, collecting, these aspects, isolated by themselves, are by definition non-linear, how would you make those things linear? Unless it's a side-scrolling platform game, how is exploring ever linear? Being given the freedom to do whatever you want in a big game world is a feature, and however miraculously fantastic this feature may have been implemented, it does not constitute non-linear gameplay, nor does it mean Morrowind is a non-linear game.

HUH?

I am not sure what you are saying. I think its pretty non-linear, more non-linear then most CRPG's. For one thing, the game does not force you to do anything. Therefore, it can't be linear, because you can actually progress has a character, which is at the hear of roleplaying, without any definitive orders from the game itself.

Given our misunderstanding may be semantics, it would be beneficial to actually explain why it is not linear, instead of just saying those things aren't linear. My definition of nonlinearity simply means multiple paths to the same means. Hence, there are plethora of different ways that a character can achieve their current state in the game. While in Dungeon siege that is simply not the case.

Now a more technical definition, which borders chaos theory, which is a non-linear system, would be to say that a tiny difference in a characters action has a radically different effect on the game. IMO this would be dah bomb, but I believe only FO has come close to this, and even it was lacking as far as this was concerned. Other games have implemented this in small portions but not really on a massive scale.

Furthermore, I think people like Josh Sawyer, talked about systems involving reputation which would also approximate this behaviourr but I have yet to see it implemented.

 

[Tintin]

nor does it mean Morrowind is a non-linear game.

It sure does. When you start the game you are not forced to follow a path. Automatically Morrowind cannot be called a linear game because you don't have to follow a line or a set path through the entire game.

 

[Chefe]

So, hold on, let me get this straight...
By your logic, Mario 64 would be a non linear game, right?

In Mario 64, you could pretty much run anywhere you wanted to inside and outside the castle. Early on in the game, you got the option to travel to any world you wanted. While in the world, you could run around anywhere you wanted to. Hell, I think Mario 64 might be even more non linear than Morrowind in that you didn't have to follow the "quests" in the level in the specific order they were listed... while in Morrowind you didn't have the option to choose one fighter guild quest instead of another, the quest giver wouldn't accept no for an answer. :D

 

[Tintin]

There's no point in making oversimplified stupid comparisons and you probably knew that while you wrote that.

In Morrowind as soon as you got off the boat you could go wherever, take on any quests available, join any factions, or just wander around, or go to any city, basically do whatever. These actions had rewards for you. Money, levelling up, building your character, finding items.

Super Mario 64's main level was just an interface to go into the levels, and once you were in the levels, you had one goal. You can run around, but there is no point to doing it.

You can't seriously tell me you didn't realize how stupid the comparison is. Especially when writing "Hell, I think Mario 64 might be even more non linear than Morrowind"

Yeah...right

 

[triCritical]

nor does it mean Morrowind is a non-linear game.

It sure does. When you start the game you are not forced to follow a path. Automatically Morrowind cannot be called a linear game because you don't have to follow a line or a set path through the entire game.

I am not aware of this path, neither literally or figuratively. I can get to Balmore by Silt Strider or by walking one of an infinite number of paths. Nor, am I even forced to goto Balmora. Nor am I given a ethical or moral disposition. Nor am even required to wear clothes...

So there is this line or set path, yet I do not see it. By that logic FO is linear. I am forced to find a water chip. And then I am forced to destroy the Army base, and Kill the Master of Mutants. So what game is non-linear by that logic?

 

[Chefe]

In Morrowind as soon as you got off the boat you could go wherever, take on any quests available, join any factions, or just wander around, or go to any city, basically do whatever. These actions had rewards for you. Money, levelling up, building your character, finding items.

In Mario 64, as soon as you start the game all you need to do to be able to go anywhere is get a few stars in the first level (let's equate time spent in this to chargen in Morrowind). What rewards were there in Morrowind? Ph4t l3wt and ca$h? Mario 64 had rewards in new levels, more lives, cash (coins used to "buy" lives), and special powerups (such as the flying cap, invisibility cap, and the metal cap). I think the rewards are pretty much equal here. You just get extra crap. The type of progression in the actual game worlds are pretty insignificant (in Morrowind you can move a few NPCs around; in Mario 64 you can get rid of the ghosts haunting the backyard).

Super Mario 64's main level was just an interface to go into the levels, and once you were in the levels, you had one goal.

Morrowind's main world was just an interfact to receive pointless fedex/killing quests and to enter the boring and uninspired "levels"... er... "dungeons"... er... "small caves". Once you enter Morrowind's caves or buildings you have one goal: Kill Character A or Get Pointless Wiki Entries From Character A. Once you get into a level in Mario 64, you have several goals (defeating the boss, collecting red coins, doing some trick of sorts, defeating x number of enemies, getting a certain time in a race, etc.).

You can run around, but there is no point to doing it.

And this is different from Morrowind... how?

You can't seriously tell me you didn't realize how stupid the comparison is. Especially when writing "Hell, I think Mario 64 might be even more non linear than Morrowind"

Prove my comparison wrong, amigo.

 

[Tintin]

So there is this line or set path, yet I do not see it. By that logic FO is linear. I am forced to find a water chip. And then I am forced to destroy the Army base, and Kill the Master of Mutants. So what game is non-linear by that logic?

Uh...are you agreeing or disagreeing that Morrowind is not a linear game?

In Mario 64, as soon as you start the game all you need to do to be able to go anywhere is get a few stars in the first level (let's equate time spent in this to chargen in Morrowind). What rewards were there in Morrowind? Ph4t l3wt and ca$h? Mario 64 had rewards in new levels, more lives, cash (coins used to "buy" lives), and special powerups (such as the flying cap, invisibility cap, and the metal cap). I think the rewards are pretty much equal here. You just get extra crap. The type of progression in the actual game worlds are pretty insignificant (in Morrowind you can move a few NPCs around; in Mario 64 you can get rid of the ghosts haunting the backyard). [/quote

You can level up your character. You can make money. You can buy items for yourself to make your character stronger. You can get new quests. You can learn of dungeons and areas and go visit them. True, these side quests don't affect the game world aside from those involved from them, but why should they?

Mario 64 and Morrowind are nothing alike, and it's ridiculous to compare them. Yeah, Super Mario 64 let you unlock levels. Well, I don't think there's going to be any level unlocking in Morrowind. But hey, sometimes NPCs give you keys to houses?

Morrowind's main world was just an interfact to receive pointless fedex/killing quests and to enter the boring and uninspired "levels"... er... "dungeons"... er... "small caves". Once you enter Morrowind's caves or buildings you have one goal: Kill Character A or Get Pointless Wiki Entries From Character A. Once you get into a level in Mario 64, you have several goals (defeating the boss, collecting red coins, doing some trick of sorts, defeating x number of enemies, getting a certain time in a race, etc.).

And once you get to a dungeon, you can collect whatever item you need, you can loot the place, you can defeat x number of enemies, you can explore. You do realize that you can simplify any game to sound like what you are making Morrowind sound like, right?

And this is different from Morrowind... how?

Uh, because in Morrowind exploring the world benefits you because you can find items, read books to learn more about Tamriel, improve your skills, improve your armor or weaponry, get quests to earn money, collect ingredients for alchemy, make spells, join guilds, become guildmasters, join factions, blah...

Don't you love these 1 vs 1 debates?

 

[Chefe]

You can level up your character. You can make money. You can buy items for yourself to make your character stronger. You can get new quests. You can learn of dungeons and areas and go visit them. True, these side quests don't affect the game world aside from those involved from them, but why should they?

Yea, but who cares? Nothing changes in the game world. They don't even affect the NPCs involved in them. In Mario 64, the game world isn't affected by when you acquired the invisibility cap, how many lives you have, or... barring the very end... how many stars you have. Of course, there are no NPCs in Mario 64 to show you a change in the game world... but Morrowind, with its NPCs, failed to utilize them. In Mario 64, you get goals from a big white screen. In Morrowind, you get goals/quests from a Wiki box. I know you're probably thinking "well, you could compare any RPG to that"... but the thing is there's no dialogue to change rewards, quest goals, etc. You click a little word, and the NPC says "Go Here! Kill Man!", and that's it.

To go back to the changing game world and give an example, in Arcanum if you killed Gilbert Bates it changed the game world. Appelby became the head tech honcho and everyone pretty much thought poorly of you (except that assassin group that was after you... can't remember the name... they liked you more). The NPCs showed it. If you killed the Duke of Morrowind in Ebonheart NO ONE CARED! Hell, if you asked them about the Duke they'd give you the same stupid dictionary definition they would give you if he was still alive. The Cammona Tong didn't like you and say they were working to control Morrowind even more now that the Duke was gone, the royal guards didn't hate you, not even Vivec said anything to you about it. If you slaughtered an entire town in Arcanum... hell, you were fucking branded for life. If you slaughtered an entire town in Morrowind, you paid a few gold and no one gave two shits. No one talked about the "slaughter in Balmora". Nothing.

Mario 64 and Morrowind are nothing alike, and it's ridiculous to compare them. Yeah, Super Mario 64 let you unlock levels. Well, I don't think there's going to be any level unlocking in Morrowind. But hey, sometimes NPCs give you keys to houses?

In Morrowind, you just unlock the next pointless linear quest which does nothing to the game world except to net you some coin and move on to the next pointless linear quest. In Mario 64, you take on a level which will net you some coin and stars and allow you to move on to the next level. Nothing in the game world is changed by your actions in both cases. No NPCs... nothin'.

And once you get to a dungeon, you can collect whatever item you need, you can loot the place, you can defeat x number of enemies, you can explore. You do realize that you can simplify any game to sound like what you are making Morrowind sound like, right?

Oooh yes, I forgot how cool and how much fun it was to loot 50 grand soul gems and 400 forks. Listen to what you're saying here. In Mario 64, once you get to a level you can collect whatever item(s) you need, loot the place of its coins, defeat x number of enemies, or explore. Thing is, in Mario, you can explore to find new stars. In Morrowind, you can explore to find... MORE FORKS!!!!111

Uh, because in Morrowind exploring the world benefits you because you can find items, read books to learn more about Tamriel, improve your skills, improve your armor or weaponry, get quests to earn money, collect ingredients for alchemy, make spells, join guilds, become guildmasters, join factions, blah...

None of that crap matters because nothing changes. You just become uber power warrior, loaded with phat lewt, and the world at the end of the game is the same damn world with the same damn NPCs saying the same damn things as when you first got off the prison ship. In Mario, when you end, it's the same world also... except for Yoshi (no wait! you also drain the moat! Mario = 1, Morrowind = 0).

If I wanted to read books about Tamriel, I'd visit the Imperial Library website... and it doesn't cost me $50.

Don't you love these 1 vs 1 debates?

Only with my wholest of hearts!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

By Tintin's logic, Sacred isn't linear either since you can explore the majority of the world and do random side quests while ignoring the main plot. Hey, Diablo and Diablo 2 might be non-linear as well if you're not talking to Decard Cain and just happen to maybe stumble on to the boss monsters to kill while exploring. I mean, you're not doing quests if you don't talk to the guy who gives them to you, right?

 

[Stark]

I just want to hop in and say that i agree wholeheartedly to the comparison angler just made. If the gameworld does not react to player's action there is very little to differentiate MW from Mario.

Tin Tin you may argue angler's simplifying matter too much, but you can't deny fundamentally there is a ring of truth to what he said.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So there is this line or set path, yet I do not see it

When I call a game "linear", I'm talking about what you need to do in order to get the "GAME OVER" screen to be displayed at the end. In Morrowind, to "finish" the game, you need to reach and go through a series of steps, in sequential order. Sure, you can wander all over the map but if you want to finish the game, you need to be named Neverravine. To be named Nevereverking, you need to do certain things in a certain order. Your goal in Morrowind is to fulfil the prophecy and defeat that d00d in the mountain. To do that, there are about 50 things you need to do, one after the other. That's linearity.

I call the other side quest stuff "open ended" (without fixed limits or restrictions). You can wander about, join whatever guild you want and all sorts of other things, which in Morrowind's case, have absolutely no affect on the game what-so-ever. None of these things allow you to "finish" the game though. Again, to complete your intial task, you need to follow a very set, linear path of which there is only one¹.

By that logic FO is linear. I am forced to find a water chip. And then I am forced to destroy the Army base, and Kill the Master of Mutants. So what game is non-linear by that logic?

You don't have to kill them, you can join them.

If you look at the diagrams I posted before, you'll see what a linear game really is. It's not just a matter of having one or two things which you have to do (IE: Kill the bad guy), it's how many option you have and what steps you have to go through in order to achieve that victory.

Take Fallout. How you find out about and destroy the muties is up to you. You don't have to follow a set procedure. You can kill them with your guns, blow up their nuke, talk them into death, set off their self-destruct or have fun with explosives. In Morrowind, you MUST get the 3 magic items and use them in sequence. Now there's nothing wrong with that per se but it does add to the linearity of the game. Especially when you've just Got off the boat > Met Cassius > Done his quests because you had to > Been named Hortator in the only way you could be > meet Vivec because you had to > Found the magic items and so on...

More to the point, if I start up a game of Morrowind right now and want to kill the bad guy, I'll be doing EXACTLY the same 50 things as I did the first time. I'll be meeting the same people not because of chance but because I MUST talk to Cassisu to do his quests before I can go and talk to the tribes and so on. In Fallout, I can wander around, level up on random encounters and then take out the Mutants that way or I can follow the path the Overseer lays out for me or I can ignore him and wander down to the Necropolis myself etc... That's non-linearity.


¹I consider the speed trials done with alchemy outside of the scope of the main game - Fallout has its own similar shortcuts (EG: Using previous game knowledge to find the location of the Muties). I also consider the secondary path in Morrowind of killing Vivec and talking to the Dwarf as outside th scope of the main plot simply because the end-game movies and dialogue don't reflect your game when you take this path (EG: Not finding the water chip in Fallout).

 

[Rat Keeng]

Pac-man is non-linear too, you can eat the dots in whatever order you choose. Plus there's the awesome side quests of ghost eating, and getting to the cherry, which is a very emergent side quest, cause the cherry might suddenly disappear! Considering, Pac-man has thousands and thousands of different paths you can take to complete a level, and it doesn't force you to follow one path from the start, you can roam around just avoiding the ghosts forever, getting better at avoiding the ghosts if that's what you want, or save all the ghost-eating pellets for last, for some superfun ghost-eating happy hour!

But seriously, calling a game non-linear, because it allows you to freely explore a virtual world, just doesn't make sense. If the criteria for non-linearity is "bumming around doing stuff that isn't the main quest", and the game not forcing you onto one set path, then i'd say about 99%¹ of all interactive pieces of software ever made, and not just RPGs, could be considered non-linear.

¹ Note 1% margin of error.

 

[Tintin]

To go back to the changing game world and give an example, in Arcanum if you killed Gilbert Bates it changed the game world. Appelby became the head tech honcho and everyone pretty much thought poorly of you (except that assassin group that was after you... can't remember the name... they liked you more). The NPCs showed it. If you killed the Duke of Morrowind in Ebonheart NO ONE CARED! Hell, if you asked them about the Duke they'd give you the same stupid dictionary definition they would give you if he was still alive. The Cammona Tong didn't like you and say they were working to control Morrowind even more now that the Duke was gone, the royal guards didn't hate you, not even Vivec said anything to you about it. If you slaughtered an entire town in Arcanum... hell, you were fucking branded for life. If you slaughtered an entire town in Morrowind, you paid a few gold and no one gave two shits. No one talked about the "slaughter in Balmora". Nothing.

If you killed someone in Morrowind, people did react, that branded you an outlaw and had a bad disposition towards you. When you did the side quest about the Cammona Tong, there was a reaction from the game world about it. Most of the side quests had reactions from things involved in them.

In Morrowind, you just unlock the next pointless linear quest which does nothing to the game world except to net you some coin and move on to the next pointless linear quest. In Mario 64, you take on a level which will net you some coin and stars and allow you to move on to the next level. Nothing in the game world is changed by your actions in both cases. No NPCs... nothin'.

NPCs who you've done quests for do react when you do something for them.

None of that crap matters because nothing changes.

It does matter, because....we are playing a game. It matters because, you are given quests and you can do them. I think you are getting a little too hung up over computer codes showing the world changing because of something you do. If you finish a quest, wow the random NPC on the street knows about it. But what was the main point, doing the quest or having the absolute satisfaction of eternity of knowing that a random computer code was generated to know about it?

If I wanted to read books about Tamriel, I'd visit the Imperial Library website... and it doesn't cost me $50.

Three guesses as to what is wrong with this argument.

at the end of the game is the same damn world with the same damn NPCs saying the same damn things as when you first got off the prison ship.

That's not true, at the end of the game the entire world has a different disposition for the Nerevarine, the protection wall is gone, red mountain isn't red any longer.

 

[Chefe]

If you killed someone in Morrowind, people did react, that branded you an outlaw and had a bad disposition towards you. When you did the side quest about the Cammona Tong, there was a reaction from the game world about it. Most of the side quests had reactions from things involved in them.

Yea, they had a bad disposition... hahahaha!

"You're an outlaw! You have a bounty on your head. However, I will not alert the guards nor run away, but rather I will answer your questions in the same, coherent way that I have always done. If you want to get my disposition bar a few points higher, please give me ten gold."

or

"You're an outlaw with a big price on your head. I will not alert the guards or run, but I will end conversation with you. Goodbye."

Then, in the sheer genius of it all, you could PAY OFF YOUR BOUNTY. Even if you ethnically cleansed Vivec City of the Dark Elves! No one knew the wiser after you payed a few thousand gold, even if you had tried to talk to them before and they refused. Suddenly, they were your best friend again! Brilliant!

NPCs who you've done quests for do react when you do something for them.

They didn't react to me. I killed a guy for them and they just stood there, gave me some gold, and said thank you. They didn't say "hahaha! my plan is now complete!" and run off to go do something dastardly. Oh yea, almost forgot, their disposition bar went up a few points... not that it matters because they all react to you the same unless the bar is really low and you won't get a few topics until you pay them more gold.

It does matter, because....we are playing a game. It matters because, you are given quests and you can do them. I think you are getting a little too hung up over computer codes showing the world changing because of something you do. If you finish a quest, wow the random NPC on the street knows about it. But what was the main point, doing the quest or having the absolute satisfaction of eternity of knowing that a random computer code was generated to know about it?

What's the main point of doing it without the world reacting to you doing it? Why the flying fuck would I want to deliever a book on potions to some lady in the city? To get 10 gold? To have the satisfaction of knowing HAY I NO HOW 2 CARY BOOKZ!!!...? If you delievered the book, then found out the lady was trying to conjure up evil spirits so you had to stop them, and afterwards the people in the city rejoiced because you stopped the evil witch.... then that's satisfying, fun, and really cool.

If I didn't want to experience a living, breathing world apart from my own with it's own unique setting, choices, and see how I could personally change things in that world... then I wouldn't play RPGs. I would play Mario, or something.

If I wanted to read books about Tamriel, I'd visit the Imperial Library website... and it doesn't cost me $50.

Three guesses as to what is wrong with this argument.[/quote]

Books are extra. They are a neat extra, but if your entire game focuses on reading books (and that's where the "fun" comes in), then it's a waste of money.

Just for fun, what do you think is wrong with it?

That's not true, at the end of the game the entire world has a different disposition for the Nerevarine, the protection wall is gone, red mountain isn't red any longer.

You're silly!

I don't call being addressed with "Move along, outlander" or "Stupid outlander" as being a better disposition... or even a different one. The only thing that's different is everyone (note: everyone) says the same opening statement when you open up the browser... er... initate conversation "Umm... Nerevarine... sir.... umm... It's... um... an... honor..." or something like that. They don't talk to you differently, nothing. They act and talk EXACTLY THE SAME. Red Mountain is still red, the textures haven't changed to green grass or anything (well, in my game they didn't).

The only thing that's different is a big blue wall in the middle of the fucking desert isn't there anymore, and those laggy red storms don't show up. Personally, I think meeting Yoshi in Mario 64 is more entralling than this.

 

[Tintin]

I think meeting Yoshi in Mario 64 is more entralling than this.

Sure :D :D

Red Mountain is still red, the textures haven't changed to green grass or anything (well, in my game they didn't).

Once you defeat Dagoth Ur and step outside the cave you will notice the sky is no longer burning helllish ash at you, it's turning calm and makes you feel very satisfied.

Just for fun, what do you think is wrong with it?

Where do you think the Imperial Library got their information from?

Why the flying fuck would I want to deliever a book on potions to some lady in the city?Why the flying fuck would I want to deliever a book on potions to some lady in the city? To get 10 gold? To have the satisfaction of knowing HAY I NO HOW 2 CARY BOOKZ!!!...?

In reverse, why the "flying fuck" would I want to do a quest just to have random guys know about it? To have the satisfaction of knowing HAY TEH COMPUTER NO'S I CARYD BOOKZ!!!.....? Believe it or not, it's fun for some people.

They didn't react to me. I killed a guy for them and they just stood there, gave me some gold, and said thank you. They didn't say "hahaha! my plan is now complete!" and run off to go do something dastardly. Oh yea, almost forgot, their disposition bar went up a few points... not that it matters because they all react to you the same unless the bar is really low and you won't get a few topics until you pay them more gold.

I distinctly remember a Khajit in Caldera or something who gave you quests, and was quite independent in their reaction. Some did remember about it later.

 

[Chefe]

Once you defeat Dagoth Ur and step outside the cave you will notice the sky is no longer burning helllish ash at you, it's turning calm and makes you feel very satisfied.

Yes, I said that. No more blight storms. So what? The world is the same as before except in the ashland areas your computer doesn't get all laggy.

Where do you think the Imperial Library got their information from?

You've seem to have missed my point. My point was if I wanted to read books (I just said TIL because it's related to the Elder Scrolls) I'd go read one online or go to a library. A main attraction in a game shouldn't be that you can read books. It's a nice extra that adds to the game world, but I wouldn't count reading books as part of the gameplay.

In reverse, why the "flying fuck" would I want to do a quest just to have random guys know about it? To have the satisfaction of knowing HAY TEH COMPUTER NO'S I CARYD BOOKZ!!!.....? Believe it or not, it's fun for some people.

Why the flying fuck do people play games then?

In my opinion, it's either to get a challenge, to explore and experience the world, to experience a story, or any combination of the above. Delivering flowers to some broad half way across the world for 10 gold doesn't fit into any of these categories. It's mindless, pointless, and doesn't change anything.

I distinctly remember a Khajit in Caldera or something who gave you quests, and was quite independent in their reaction. Some did remember about it later.

What about the killing people, or any of the other points I made?

Some might have remembered about it later, but that was one quest (a quest which I can't remember). 98% of the quests did not have anyone remembering about anything.

 

[Tintin]

Yes, I said that. No more blight storms.

No, that's not what I said. Red Mountain's sky is red and burning, once you defeat Dagoth Ur, you will step ouside and it feels much more peaceful.

Why the flying fuck do people play games then?

TO HAVE FUN

People play games to have fun, to enjoy themselves while playing it. Personally, I had fun getting to Balmora and searching the town to find Casius Cosades and felt rewarded to find him. I also have fun playing other types of games. I had fun playing Doom, too. But, I wouldn't call it a better game than say, Syberia, because it is just not as well crafted. There's another thing, you probably don't like adventure games, but I do, because I just think they're fun. We all have different opinions on what a "fun" game is.

And yes, I did find it fun to go walking across the broad landscape to finally find the village I was looking for and enter the small shack to deliver. Maybe not too many times, but it was fun.

98% of the quests did not have anyone remembering about anything.

I want to argue about this, but I don't remember all the sidequests all too well so ...

 

[Chefe]

No, that's not what I said. Red Mountain's sky is red and burning, once you defeat Dagoth Ur, you will step ouside and it feels much more peaceful.

Okay, so the sky above an arid and boring region in the middle of the map changes color. Whoop de fucking doo.

Oh and, just thought I should mention, it's actually not the sky texture but the blight storms (which I mentioned before) that make it seem red. Go in the CS and disable the storms, the sky will be... ta da! Blue.

TO HAVE FUN

People play games to have fun, to enjoy themselves while playing it. Personally, I had fun getting to Balmora and searching the town to find Casius Cosades and felt rewarded to find him. I also have fun playing other types of games. I had fun playing Doom, too. But, I wouldn't call it a better game than say, Syberia, because it is just not as well crafted. There's another thing, you probably don't like adventure games, but I do, because I just think they're fun. We all have different opinions on what a "fun" game is.

Well, I thought you could imply that the reasons I posted were dealing with "fun", but it seems that went right over your head.

It's a good thing you like menial tasks though, and find them fun. The world always needs secretaries.

Just to add... Chico, I love adventure games more than any other genre. More than RTS games (and I'm an avid RTS gamer). I couldn't tell you the number of times I've played MI 1 & 2 over the years. I played Maniac Mansion over and over until my diskettes stopped working. I got Myst the day it was fucking released (I thought it was an adventure game... ha). It's a cryin' shame what's happened to them, but there's still hope in Telltale games it seems.

"I probably don't like adventure games"... that's funny. You're a really silly guy.

And yes, I did find it fun to go walking across the broad landscape to finally find the village I was looking for and enter the small shack to deliver. Maybe not too many times, but it was fun.

Not to many times is fine. When that's all the game is made up of, it's not fun. Unless, of course, you really enjoy your job at FedEx.

I want to argue about this, but I don't remember all the sidequests all too well so ...

Go to UESP.net or something, I think they have all of the sidequests there.

I actually have played every quest in Morrowind (barring the Thieve's Guild and Morag Tong). Do your worst.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

When I call a game "linear", I'm talking about what you need to do in order to get the "GAME OVER" screen to be displayed at the end.

By that definition GTA2 is just about completely non-linear. You win by getting a lot of money. You get a lot of money through virtually anything you do.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

When I call a game "linear", I'm talking about what you need to do in order to get the "GAME OVER" screen to be displayed at the end.

By that definition GTA2 is just about completely non-linear. You win by getting a lot of money. You get a lot of money through virtually anything you do.

Not quite. If you compared it to GTA3 then yes, I'd say GTA2 is "more non-linear". Not "completely non-linear" as you said though. Keep in mind you still have to unlock each city in order and while you can do any quest in any order you want to, a second lot of phones only started ringing when you'd reached enough respect (though there were two ways to get respect) In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the story presumed you'd done the quests (which in fact, is the only real way to make enough money in order to progress).

Your options are also limited in that the only way to make money is to kill people, blow stuff up or complete quests. You can't, for argument's sake, talk people out of it or get a job delivering pizza's (unlike GTA3 - though it doesn't do much there). Barring a few examples, the quests only have one way to complete them too, so each quest was quite linear. Certainly I think GTA2 could be called more non-linear when compared to the very linear story of GTA3 but not "completely non-linear".

 

[Tintin]

"I probably don't like adventure games"... that's funny. You're a really silly guy.

Well, 90% of people out there don't like them (ew point and clik) so you could see how I would make that assumption.

When that's all the game is made up of, it's not fun.

But, it wasn't all Morrowind was made up off. It had too much, I agree.

Go to UESP.net or something, I think they have all of the sidequests there.

I actually have played every quest in Morrowind (barring the Thieve's Guild and Morag Tong). Do your worst.

That won't do anything, I was talking about reactions from the NPCs.

But if you did play them all, youhave to remember the Khajit female in the bar in Caldera, she gave you quests, and she did have a generally different attitude. I'm just assuming the others did too. And if you did quests for one person, what kind of world change did you expect?

 

[triCritical]

So there is this line or set path, yet I do not see it

When I call a game "linear", I'm talking about what you need to do in order to get the "GAME OVER" screen to be displayed at the end. In Morrowind, to "finish" the game, you need to reach and go through a series of steps, in sequential order. Sure, you can wander all over the map but if you want to finish the game, you need to be named Neverravine. To be named Nevereverking, you need to do certain things in a certain order. Your goal in Morrowind is to fulfil the prophecy and defeat that d00d in the mountain. To do that, there are about 50 things you need to do, one after the other. That's linearity.

I do not think you have a good grasp on the definition of linearity. For one thing even non-linear things get from point a to point be in sequential order. A parabola for instance when less then one gets there slower then a linear line, But after one gets there faster.

Hence why I never liked the word linear be used for games. Now if FO is non-linear because you call kill the master before you blow up the base that is BS. Morrowind quest do not leave much for the imagination because the scale of the quest is on a much different level then a game like Morrowind. Hence, while they are both quest based RPG's, I think by comparing quest between these two games is comparing apples and oranges. Nevertheless, even on the localized quest level of Morrowind, there is still a large degree of flexability pertaining to characters ability on how the quest is solved, in comparison with typical Bioware scripts, or dungeon siege.

You don't have to kill them, you can join them.

Yeah by that logic, I can join whatever daedric cult as well in MW, by simply not continuing along the main course. Which is essentially what happens when you choose to be dumped in the vat. Essentially in both cases you have failed the main objective of the game.

If you look at the diagrams I posted before, you'll see what a linear game really is. It's not just a matter of having one or two things which you have to do (IE: Kill the bad guy), it's how many option you have and what steps you have to go through in order to achieve that victory.

I actually agree with this. However, Morrowind quest are on a different scale then FO case. Take escorting dude to a city to get notes. I can kill him and steal notes, or just steal notes, or I can go to the city with him. While the main storyline quest don't typically offer this many choices, you are often times given quite a bit of flexability in accomplishing the quest. FO quest, for the most part add a dimension completely untouched in MW, and that is dialogue, not to mention they are often times a lot more expansive and carry with them many more consequences. But honestly, I think you are guilty in making everything either black, or white, when in reality there are shades as gray. And while Morrowind may not be a CRPG as good as FO as far as linearity is concerned, it still more non-linear then just about every other CRPG I have played.

Take Fallout. How you find out about and destroy the muties is up to you. You don't have to follow a set procedure. You can kill them with your guns, blow up their nuke, talk them into death, set off their self-destruct or have fun with explosives. In Morrowind, you MUST get the 3 magic items and use them in sequence. Now there's nothing wrong with that per se but it does add to the linearity of the game. Especially when you've just Got off the boat > Met Cassius > Done his quests because you had to > Been named Hortator in the only way you could be > meet Vivec because you had to > Found the magic items and so on...

I disagree.

I agree that in FO, you can talk things to death. With the big exception of the Lt. However, you can use stealth to avoid him. However, the end result is that you have to nuke both the cathedral and the military base. And YES, FO does have the ability to use stealth, combat and dialogue. And for each of the options there is a different set of linear paths you must follow. For instance to talk the master of mutants down, there is certain things you must do in the game, otherwise it is just impossible.

Now in MW given the quest design, this grand scheme of FO is just not applicable. Because you are not given a huge quest which must be accomplished via smaller quest, following a specific path. I actually prefer the way FO did things. However, on the individual quest themselves, you are typically asked to retrieve things. And as to how you actually accomplish this depends greatly on the character like FO. I personally believe on a quest by quest basis MW tends to be more non-linear. While, in FO the non-linearity comes from which general path of quests you choose to follow. Do you do things the dialogue way, the combat way, or the stealth way.

More to the point, if I start up a game of Morrowind right now and want to kill the bad guy, I'll be doing EXACTLY the same 50 things as I did the first time. I'll be meeting the same people not because of chance but because I MUST talk to Cassisu to do his quests before I can go and talk to the tribes and so on. In Fallout, I can wander around, level up on random encounters and then take out the Mutants that way or I can follow the path the Overseer lays out for me or I can ignore him and wander down to the Necropolis myself etc... That's non-linearity.

Again you are comparing apples and oranges. In FO the quest is to find a waterchip not to go to shady sands. In MW the quest is to meet Cassius, a very bad quest I may add. Just look at the journal, that is the quest. However, how you choose to accomplish getting to Cassius is entirely up to you. Hence, why I say MW is probably more non-linear on a quest by quest basis. In FO you have x number of days to get the water chip. But there is only way to get it, and there is no escaping that. And in both games I can do whatever the fuck I want instead of collecting tha waterchip, or talking to Cassius. The big difference, is that MW quest tend to be meaningless and pointless and feel like buys work, and that is bad.