Preview Oblivion preview at Gaming Target

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, well, call me a hardcore Fallout fan, but I take issue with the linearity of Fallout when anyone brings it up and then dismisses the alternative solution (killing the muties) as a 'bug'.

 

[spacemoose]

No, I think I would prefer calling you a giant cunt

 

[Sol Invictus]

Don't you think your signature is a little oversized and that this little charade you seem to have going on has played itself out for a little too long than was necessary?

 

[spacemoose]

My signature is proportional to the size of my penis, Vicky.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Only the last of the farting mohegans call exitium, vicky. WHO ARE YOU??!?!

 

[Spazmo]

Non-linearity is obviously a good thing in RPGs, but (for reasons that are *not* that "exponential" BS) isn't always practical, or at least not to the rat-throwing levels some people might insist upon. You can do a lot and offer some interesting options to players (at the very least, fight bad guy/join bad guy ought to be mandatory by now), but as DU points out, even in a game like Fallout, there's going to be some critical stuff that has to be done by the player. What I think is important to stress in a CRPG is two big elements: multiple parallel paths and reactivity.

When I say multiple parallel paths, I mean that yeah, everyone's going to have to follow a broadly similar path, gather the same clues, arrive at the same conclusions, spelunk the same dungeons, etc., but there should be several different ways of executing each step. This can be the fighter/spellcaster/thief options Oblivion will stress, combat boy/stealth boy/speech boy/science boy from JE Sawyer's ideas for FO3, and hopefully good guy/bad guy. You'll probably need to get past that many toothed foozle to bag that arbitrary quest item, but how you do it ought to be up to you.

As for reactivity, I see it as a natural consequence of offering any kind of choice to the player. If I make a choice, there has to be a reaction from the game. This should be more than just the immediate reaction of my character achieving a given goal through the methods I've chosen. This is one thing that Bloodlines really did well. If I do something significant, the gameworld notices. I appear on the evening news, NPCs mention it in conversation and so on. If I did it discreetly and nobody even knows I was there, then there's no heat. If I was more obvious about it, maybe there will be trouble down the line for me--or opportunities. Reactivity should open or close further choices as you progress in the game. Again, Bloodlines did this: if you're rude to a given faction all the time, you won't be able to side with them at the end of the game. If you're an evil bastard through your quest, the Holy Order of Shining Knights won't offer to join forces with you at the last moment in an arbitrary "CHOOSE YOUR ENDING" dialog choice. Offering choice without providing any real consequence to these choices is fairly meaningless--as angler points out, you don't have to follow the conventional path through Morrowind, but it doesn't really change anything significant if you take the other option. There's no reaction. Therefore, the choice becomes empty and meaningless.

It's actually very easy to make an RPG with infinite choices and possibilities, except that it wouldn't be very profitable because everyone's computer already comes preloaded with Notepad. What's important is for the game to be aware of the choices the player makes and to react to them in meaningful ways.

 

[Chefe]

Spacemoose, change your fucking signature.

Spazmo, I completely agree with every last choice left in me.

 

[Twinfalls]

I found the most basic reactivity - npc comments, much more pronounced in Daggerfall than Morrowind. I guess it's because of the sheer number of NPCs, and the size of the place - when you hear comments relating to your exploits, it feels that much more wide-spread and important than in MW.

Here's the Daggerfall MQ chart. Non-linear? It's definitely way, way more replayable than Morrowind, with multiple and very different entry quests. They'd also planned multiple endings!

 

[Chefe]

Just for laughs:

:D

Such a contrast from Daggerfall, non?

 

[Sol Invictus]

You know, you can just get the Keening Artifact and slay Dagoth about 10 minutes into the game.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes yes yes, whatever. That was a fucking exploit, not a real quest alternative, and doesn't change the fact Morrowind sucked in every way compared to DF. Just LOOK at those charts for god's sakes.

What's the bet Oblivion will follow suit....

 

[Sol Invictus]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, Twinfalls. Hell, I was talking about it on IRC:

[12] <@SolInvictus> Comparison between... Daggerfall
[12] <@SolInvictus> http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/2766/quest2wb.gif
[12] <@SolInvictus> and Morrowind
[12] <@SolInvictus> http://www.uesp.net/morrow/quest/images/questmap.gif
[12] <+UA|Akuyazi[SW]> daggerfall looks more interesting
[12] <@Vacorsis> Yeah
[12] <@SolInvictus> absolutely
[12] <@SolInvictus> its nonlinear
[12] <@SolInvictus> morrowind is totally linear. with lame sidequests
[12] <@Vacorsis> When I graduate I'll have to look into JET.
[12] <@SolInvictus> stupid thing about morrowind is that you can just grab the sunder artifact, drink a ton of potions to increase your intelligence stat and zap dagoth in a single hit
[12] <@SolInvictus> someone did that

 

[Twinfalls]

Ah. I see.

 

[Chefe]

You know, you can just get the Keening Artifact and slay Dagoth about 10 minutes into the game.

Ten whole minutes? Slow ass.

http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html

 

[Sol Invictus]

Jesus. It took me at least 10 when I did the whole potion brew thing because I kept having to look up the combos. I've not really been a big user of alchemy.

There's definitely a lot of fun things you can do in Morrowind. A lot more than Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate, which have their share of goofy things to do.

 

[truekaiser]

You know, you can just get the Keening Artifact and slay Dagoth about 10 minutes into the game.

Ten whole minutes? Slow ass.

http://speeddemosarchive.com/Morrowind.html

holy...

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I can't believe you just called Fallout linear. Are you some kind of moron?

I didn't call Fallout linear, you idiot.

DU seems to be implying that Fallout is linear at points because there are some plot critical stuff that you have to do, like finding the waterchip.

All righty, let me explain again, what you missed the first time around.

• Every game is linear to some extent (Bear with me, I explain the contradiction below).
• Linearity comes down to degrees.
• For example, Fallout has so little linearity that it may as well be considered "non-linear".
• Arcanum has a lot more linear points than Fallout and several steps you must reach, hence it is linear, despite the fact that there are sometimes many ways to do those steps.
• Morrowind is linear as hell because not only are there many steps that you have to do, but there is also often only one way to reach each step.

Seeing as you only notice the drawings:

Fallout is not 100% completely truly non-linear not only because of the water chip issue but also because, being a computer game, there are only a set number of pre-determined ways in which things can be done (some of this is Sarvis' issue with "RPGs" and the throwing rat debacle, limited set of pre-determined dialogue 'choices' etc... and some of this is Spazmo's 'Spelunk the same dungeons', 'gather the clues'. In Fallout's case, it's even the fact that you can't *really* wander down to the Military Base without achieving the first step of levelling up - otherwise you get wasted in your first random encounter with a Mutie patrol). However, to say Fallout is linear puts it in the same bag as Morrowind, which is clearly not the case. Hence, Fallout is non-linear or at least, as non-linear as we're going to get for quite some time. Arcanum is linear because while Fallout only has one issue that needs to be done before the rest (we'll excuse the 100% truly stuff), Arcanum has about 8 or so steps that must be reached, in order, before you can move on.

You know, you can just get the Keening Artifact and slay Dagoth about 10 minutes into the game.

Like Fallout's Water Chip issue, this is something the developers didn't take into consideration. Take into account the ending and how despite the fact that you didn't do the dumb prophecy, you still get called 'Hortator', 'Neverravine' and whatever. The developers presume you've taken their set path.

He calls killing the muties early a 'bug'. How is it a bug when the developers clearly anticipated some players doing it with the dialogue for it?

Eh? What dialogue Rexy boy? You wipe out the Master and his Mutant Factory without getting the Water Chip and you get the same Overseer dialogue as you always do. I call it a bug simply because there's nothing that says the water chip was ever received to save the Vault. If you didn't do it, who else did? Given you're booted out for being 'the hero', why would the Overseer send someone else out to find the Water Chip and if he did, who was it? More to the point, despite what delusion seems to exist in your mind, why isn't it mentioned anywhere, at all? Why isn't there even a slide "Well, gee, you didn't get the Water Chip but the Overseer sent someone else out who nicked it from the Necropolis"? If you don't deal with the Water Chip, it becomes an unfinished issue which is never resolved, this is because the game presumes you dealt with that issue first (given the whole "Give me the Water Chip" dealio with the Overseer when you do return with it first).

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Good analysis, still I think it kind of does MW injustice. It's true that the main quest is entirely linear. But that is only half the truth. There is a lot of fun to be had (despite the simple fedex quests) by just ignoring the whole main quest (or doing it at your leisure) and just going discovering, adventuring, collecting, rising in guilds, etc. and that part IS entirely non-linear. It may not fit classical RPG gameplay terms, but its a great concept since ELITE way back then.

As to DF, as great as that nonlinear quat setup looks on paper, I have bad memories playing through the DF mainquest, it was terrible in presentation and thus very hard to understand without outside information (Like UESP). So the nonlinearity actually worked against it. Mainly a presentation problem as I said, but nonlinear != great in all cases.

 

[Psilon]

Daggerfall's main plot was still pretty damn linear. More so than Morrowind, in fact, because you couldn't get to Aetherius and activate Numidium until finishing the rest of the plot. However, Daggerfall didn't go into ridiculous "you 4re ub3r" theatrics with the Nerevarine, triple Hortator, defeating-an-icky-disease-by-swigging-a-potion, and so on.

Also, Morrowind's guild quests were highly linear. Not only the quests themselves, but also the whole guild structure.

 

[Chefe]

Good analysis, still I think it kind of does MW injustice. It's true that the main quest is entirely linear. But that is only half the truth. There is a lot of fun to be had (despite the simple fedex quests) by just ignoring the whole main quest (or doing it at your leisure) and just going discovering, adventuring, collecting, rising in guilds, etc. and that part IS entirely non-linear. It may not fit classical RPG gameplay terms, but its a great concept since ELITE way back then.

As to DF, as great as that nonlinear quat setup looks on paper, I have bad memories playing through the DF mainquest, it was terrible in presentation and thus very hard to understand without outside information (Like UESP). So the nonlinearity actually worked against it. Mainly a presentation problem as I said, but nonlinear != great in all cases.

So, hold on, you call being able to walk around in a big fucking barren world non-linear? You call the ability to do a bunch of pointless fed-ex and kill quests whenever you want to NON-LINEAR? Your choices don't matter in the world, at all. Nothing changes. Just because you can walk here, and there, and everywhere doesn't make it linear... it makes it big and boring. DF had choices you could make. Although it was still a bit linear, a better approach for Bethesda would have been to make the game LESS linear instead of MORE. Also, as Psilon said, you weren't tied to some dumbass prophecy that pretty much made you not in control of your own destiny. It was pretty much "so, you're going to be uber..."

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

If you didn't do it, who else did? Given you're booted out for being 'the hero', why would the Overseer send someone else out to find the Water Chip and if he did, who was it?

You're not the first person to go after the water chip.

Good analysis, still I think it kind of does MW injustice. It's true that the main quest is entirely linear. But that is only half the truth. There is a lot of fun to be had (despite the simple fedex quests) by just ignoring the whole main quest (or doing it at your leisure) and just going discovering, adventuring, collecting, rising in guilds, etc. and that part IS entirely non-linear. It may not fit classical RPG gameplay terms, but its a great concept since ELITE way back then.

Elite was built around free roaming around in a set of eight galaxies. Simply put, there's stuff to do other than the Thargoid stuff and that stuff to do is the main focus of the game.

There's really not that much to do in Morrowind other than walking around. The guild quests are there, but they're even worse than the main plot when it comes to being linear. There really aren't any branch choices when it comes to guild quests and those guild quests are the only thing those guilds offer. There's no gameplay beyond being in a guild than those goofy one dimensional quests. Those quests were pretty much "Go here, kill this" or "Go here, find this" quests as well. Not exactly exciting stuff.

Furthermore, there's really not too many CRPGs where you're not given the option of just running around in the world killing stuff if you want to take a break from the main plot either. BioWare's done a few that didn't allow that like NWN and KotOR, but most of the CRPGs made thusfar do allow you to just roam and kill monsters at your liesure.

 

[Balor]

Well, question is, it can be fun. Take slashers, roguelikes... Take Elite, heh.
Only, it's not so fun in the long run (and that's where mods come into play), and it does not really make the game RPG.
It it sure does not make the game non-linear.
The only really non-linear game I've played so far is Hammer&Sickle.

 

[Tintin]

So, hold on, you call being able to walk around in a big fucking barren world non-linear? You call the ability to do a bunch of pointless fed-ex and kill quests whenever you want to NON-LINEAR? Your choices don't matter in the world, at all. Nothing changes. Just because you can walk here, and there, and everywhere doesn't make it linear... it makes it big and boring. DF had choices you could make. Although it was still a bit linear, a better approach for Bethesda would have been to make the game LESS linear instead of MORE. Also, as Psilon said, you weren't tied to some dumbass prophecy that pretty much made you not in control of your own destiny. It was pretty much "so, you're going to be uber..."

Even if you don't like it, it's still true.

A totally linear game is one where you start the game than follow a predetermined path then finish the game.

In Morrowind you start the game and you can do whatever you want. Automatically it cancels the notion of being a totally linear game. The main questline may be linear, but Morrowind is not a linear game.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Good analysis, still I think it kind of does MW injustice. It's true that the main quest is entirely linear. But that is only half the truth. There is a lot of fun to be had (despite the simple fedex quests) by just ignoring the whole main quest (or doing it at your leisure) and just going discovering, adventuring, collecting, rising in guilds, etc. and that part IS entirely non-linear. It may not fit classical RPG gameplay terms, but its a great concept since ELITE way back then.

As to DF, as great as that nonlinear quat setup looks on paper, I have bad memories playing through the DF mainquest, it was terrible in presentation and thus very hard to understand without outside information (Like UESP). So the nonlinearity actually worked against it. Mainly a presentation problem as I said, but nonlinear != great in all cases.

So, hold on, you call being able to walk around in a big fucking barren world non-linear? You call the ability to do a bunch of pointless fed-ex and kill quests whenever you want to NON-LINEAR? Your choices don't matter in the world, at all. Nothing changes. Just because you can walk here, and there, and everywhere doesn't make it linear... it makes it big and boring. DF had choices you could make. Although it was still a bit linear, a better approach for Bethesda would have been to make the game LESS linear instead of MORE. Also, as Psilon said, you weren't tied to some dumbass prophecy that pretty much made you not in control of your own destiny. It was pretty much "so, you're going to be uber..."

Yes I do! There was a lot to discover and to learn about the world for a good number of hours: The Temple, the ashlanders, routes through the ashlands. As to the guilds, I found them fun for what they were, a bunch of side quests, with the different guildhalls giving you some choice in what to do and what not to do, gradually learning about some of the dirtier secrets of the specific faction.
Yes, I think a world that lets you do any of that when you want it and lets you go anywhere anytime is in essence non-linear. It's a gradient as DarkUnderlord wrote, and there are far more linear designs than that (KOTOR, DEUS EX, Gothic).

There's really not that much to do in Morrowind other than walking around. The guild quests are there, but they're even worse than the main plot when it comes to being linear. There really aren't any branch choices when it comes to guild quests and those guild quests are the only thing those guilds offer. There's no gameplay beyond being in a guild than those goofy one dimensional quests. Those quests were pretty much "Go here, kill this" or "Go here, find this" quests as well. Not exactly exciting stuff.

Furthermore, there's really not too many CRPGs where you're not given the option of just running around in the world killing stuff if you want to take a break from the main plot either. BioWare's done a few that didn't allow that like NWN and KotOR, but most of the CRPGs made thusfar do allow you to just roam and kill monsters at your liesure.

I found simply progressing through the game and building my character fun: collect armor you like, hunt for artifacts, train until you can beat that thing that almost killed you at level 5, progressing in guilds, becoming rich, hearing the NPC greetings become friendlier, saving for and making new enchantments or potions, decorating your stronghold. You are right, many games let you do that to an extent, but in all honesty I think that TES does it better than most of these, becasue of size, graphics, sheer number of items, artifacts, dungeons, world size.

 

[franc kaos]

Daggerfall's main plot was still pretty damn linear. More so than Morrowind, in fact, because you couldn't get to Aetherius and activate Numidium until finishing the rest of the plot. However, Daggerfall didn't go into ridiculous "you 4re ub3r" theatrics with the Nerevarine, triple Hortator, defeating-an-icky-disease-by-swigging-a-potion, and so on.

Also, Morrowind's guild quests were highly linear. Not only the quests themselves, but also the whole guild structure.

In Morrowind if they had simply allowed an option to refuse a quest, and a failure scenario (I couldn't nick the diamond, the guard was on my case all the time - oh, well try to get this thing instead), it would have helped enormously with the restrictive feeling in each guild quest.

I know random generated quests were seen as the bane of Daggerfall,but surely with todays advances in game design, it would be possible to have many more seeds to generate many different types of quest.

I'm no games designer (or programmer), so I have no idea how easy it would be to create a random quest generator with enough options that all quests wouldn't be simple FedEx type things, like would it be possible to mod this sort of thing?

And remember before flaming, modders created MWScript Extender, an EXE that made the game view further, another one that recompiled the code to use the (SSU? FPU?) that gave greater game stability, and I'm pretty sure I recall a modders resource that generated dungeons randomly.

I know a game shouldn't be fixed by modders, but no one is going to create anything as grand as Daggerfall for the forseeable future (and that DF Remake site appears to be a long way off completion).