Obsidian General Discussion Thread

[Ivan]

Josh answered my question.

 

[agris]

Can't really get me hopes up, he'll have to make concessions to idiot playtesters at Obs an players who want more automated games wi less features, an any incline in game'll be pissed away cos o this.

It's going to be a low budget passion project given to him as a reward for all the success he's given Obsidian Entertainment. Feargus Urquhart doesn't expect blockbuster numbers, so he doesn't have to tune it for a wide audience they know they're not going to get.

That would be interesting to see. Have we ever seen a product like that from JES before?

 

[vonAchdorf]

Low budget passion projects sounds like creative freedom. But don't think they have the resources/manpower for an inconsequential sideshow and too small to be like Ubisoft and create an own imprint for their experimental stuff.

 

[Roguey]

That would be interesting to see. Have we ever seen a product like that from JES before?

Never. The Black Hound mod for NWN2 was going to be that, but he burned out.

 

[Neanderthal]

Can't really get me hopes up, he'll have to make concessions to idiot playtesters at Obs an players who want more automated games wi less features, an any incline in game'll be pissed away cos o this.

It's going to be a low budget passion project given to him as a reward for all the success he's given Obsidian Entertainment. Feargus Urquhart doesn't expect blockbuster numbers, so he doesn't have to tune it for a wide audience they know they're not going to get.

I'll believe that when I see it.

 

[Tom Selleck]

I wonder how a that would make MCA feel.

 

[Zed]

I wonder how a that would make MCA feel.

who cares. MCA has essentially left the industry and will never have any meaningful creative impact on a game again

 

[Roguey]

I wonder how a that would make MCA feel.

Avellone never delivered a hit. The reception to kotor 2 very nearly made Urquhart shut down the forums and Alpha Protocol bombed.

Then look at Sawyer's record. His worst, NWN2, did well enough for them to get royalty checks.

 

[Lyric Suite]

All we wanted was a game in the vein of Torment, and failing that, a Baldur's Gate. All those assholes have been doing this past 15 years is find every possible way NOT to give us what we wanted. I've never seen a group people more devoted to disappointing their fans than Obsidian. What a bunch stuck up faggots the lot of them.

 

[Fairfax]

I wonder how a that would make MCA feel.

Avellone never delivered a hit. The reception to kotor 2 very nearly made Urquhart shut down the forums and Alpha Protocol bombed.

KOTOR2 was a buggy mess like every Obsidian game, but it was still a hit. Most Sawyer games are worse despite having more resources, more time and more freedom.
AP did bomb, but that was Chris Parker and Mitsoda's baby, not MCA's.

Then look at Sawyer's record. His worst, NWN2, did well enough for them to get royalty checks.

And FNV didn't even get the bonus.
As for his worst, that would be his 4+ cancelled projects, one of which almost led the company to bankruptcy.

 

[Roguey]

KOTOR2 was a buggy mess like every Obsidian game, but it was still a hit.

It sold well, yes, but the fan response was ME3's-ending-bad. That's what happens your end game becomes an incomprehensible mess of dropped plots and a cliffhanger.

Most Sawyer games are worse despite having more resources, more time and more freedom.

Steam reviews
Knights of the Old Republic 2 87%
New Vegas 95% and far better sales
Pillars of Eternity 88%, fewer sales, but it was still profitable (and also Obsidian's profit to have, unlike published-owned kotor2)

The market has made it quite clear that it would rather have New Vegases and Pillars of Eternity instead of Knights of the Old Republic 2s.

Fact: kotor2 being what it was really hurt Feargus Urquhart's "We want to be the next Bioware" plan. It was no Baldur's Gate.

AP did bomb, but that was Chris Parker and Mitsoda's baby, not MCA's.

He took over as lead designer due to the lack of one and wrote nearly all the spoken dialogue himself.

https://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-122-alpha-protocol-narrative-process-backslash-ramble/

Much as with the level designers, we broke down the narrative sections into email (95% Matt MacLean) and set Travis Stout loose on the news and at one Hub (Taipei) as well as periphery characters in some of the other locales (Rome). Whenever possible, we set up the narrative team so each designer was married to a specific character (Travis = Stephen Heck, Hong Shi, Omen Deng, for example, and I got most everyone else, plus the dossier and banter for levels).

And FNV didn't even get the bonus.

Because of Bethesda's dirty tricks. Look at that outstanding Steam score now and its millions of copies sold.

As for his worst, that would be his 4+ cancelled projects, one of which almost led the company to bankruptcy.

Given his promotion to design director it's clear that none of that was his fault.

 

[Fairfax]

the fan response was ME3's-ending-bad.

Nice hyperbole.

Steam reviews
Knights of the Old Republic 2 87%
New Vegas 95% and far better sales
Pillars of Eternity 88%, fewer sales, but it was still profitable (and also Obsidian's profit to have, unlike published-owned kotor2)

The market has made it quite clear that it would rather have New Vegases and Pillars of Eternity instead of Knights of the Old Republic 2s.

Fact: kotor2 being what it was really hurt Feargus Urquhart's "We want to be the next Bioware" plan. It was no Baldur's Gate..

What? The market would absolutely want another KOTOR2 over PoE, it's not even close. The mere fact it's Star Wars blows PoE out of the water.
Speaking of the Steam reviews, it's interesting that PoE is at 88%. It was 93% shortly after launch and has been dropping ever since. Probably more people actually finishing the game and seeing how it goes downhill as you progress.

He took over as lead designer due to the lack of one and wrote nearly all the spoken dialogue himself.

He took over as Lead Designer more than halfway through development, and he wasn't even Project Lead, so you're not even comparing their work on the same level.

Because of Bethesda's dirty tricks. Look at that outstanding Steam score now and its millions of copies sold.

So Bethesda's fuckery is an excuse but LucasArts' isn't?

Given his promotion to design director it's clear that none of that was his fault.

According to Feargus, Stormlands was cancelled because Microsoft wasn't happy with the game anymore.
It was cancelled in 2012, right after a bunch of RPGs were huge hits in 2011 (Skyrim, The Witcher 2, Dark Souls, Deus Ex: HR). The fact Microsoft decided it'd be better to stay without an exclusive RPG for the X1 says a lot (and to this day they still don't have one).

Maybe it wasn't his fault, we'll never know. Still, with so many cancelled projects under his belt, it's really hard to believe none of it was his fault.

 

[Fry]

Maybe it wasn't his fault, we'll never know. Still, with so many cancelled projects under his belt, it's really hard to believe none of it was his fault.

I dunno. Maybe the people who own Obsidian and who recently promoted Sawyer to design director might have a better idea of where the blame lies for cancelled projects than people idling speculating in a forum.

 

[Fairfax]

Maybe it wasn't his fault, we'll never know. Still, with so many cancelled projects under his belt, it's really hard to believe none of it was his fault.

I dunno. Maybe the people who own Obsidian and who recently promoted Sawyer to design director might have a better idea of where the blame lies for cancelled projects than people idling speculating in a forum.

Feargus said he doesn't know why they weren't happy with it, so it's anyone's guess (other than the folks at MS, of course).
EDIT:
Also, Sawyer does have a good record, don't get me wrong. My point is that it makes no sense to give him full credit when things go well and zero when they go wrong.

 

[Rev]

So Bethesda's fuckery is an excuse but LucasArts' isn't?

Well, New Vegas had bugs on release but it didn't turn into a complete mess in the last third of the game, the quests and the storylines were finished and they managed to cut only minor elements without impacting too much on the quality of the game. You can't really compare the level of polish between the two games.
As much as I liked KotOR II (and I really do) after you find all the Jedi the plot starts to collapse on itself and the ending is terribly incoherent. I blame LucasArts most of all, but even MCA himself has said that he sould've been more realistic with the scope of the game and remove some secondary content in order to deliver a solid ending.

Also, as Roguey said, it's beyond any doubt that Obsidian's biggest hits have been Sawyer-led projects: New Vegas is the most successful commercially-wise and people liked it so much that many still want a new Obsidian Fallout instead of Bethesda's ones (and FO4 was criticised because it was seen as inferior compared to NV), while PoE is probably one of their games which sold the least amount of copies (which is obvious given its less appealing to the mass market nature and the budget involved compared to their previous titles) but saved the company and brought a lot of profits, since most of them went directly to Obsidian instead of a publisher.

I wouldn't cast Alpha Protocol's poor performances on MCA, though. He inherited the project later on, so he doesn't deserve to be blamed for that.

 

[vonAchdorf]

I'd buy Sawyer's hobby project now that I saved the money for full-price Tyranny despite my initially intentions to get it.

 

[Roguey]

Nice hyperbole.

It's not hyperbole if it comes straight from Feargus.

I am super-pleased with how the Obsidian forum thread on this topic has turned into a big teeth-gnashing over Avellone talking about the interaction with the community when he's never actually personally interacted with them. And of course the usual gripes about how Sawyer posts more on SA than the Obs boards.

I didn't know Urquhart almost closed the Obsidian forums because of the extreme negative reaction to kotor 2. That's hilarious (and I'm sure they deserved most of it).

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70150-pax-south-2015-live-thread/page-6#entry1562101

Well, that was more about that it was toxic during the KotOR 2 days. It's true Feargus almost shut the forums down.

You'll have to check out that thread for the stream to hear it in his own words.

What? The market would absolutely want another KOTOR2 over PoE, it's not even close. The mere fact it's Star Wars blows PoE out of the water.

They'd want another kotor sure. A kotor 2 with bugs and unfinished ending though?

Speaking of the Steam reviews, it's interesting that PoE is at 88%. It was 93% shortly after launch and has been dropping ever since. Probably more people actually finishing the game and seeing how it goes downhill as you progress.

Eh, too much hype. Pretty much everyone who's played 3.0 agrees it's so much better now than it was at launch.

He took over as Lead Designer more than halfway through development, and he wasn't even Project Lead, so you're not even comparing their work on the same level.

Comparable to NWN2. Sawyer salvaged NWN2 into something that made Obsidian money through royalty checks, Avellone did not.

Yes I'm aware that NWN2 was helped out by the fact that it's D&D, a sequel to a success, and likely Big Brother Bioware's leverage in getting them that royalty deal in the contract (the official NWN2 forums were hosted by Bioware, so they must have been involved).

So Bethesda's fuckery is an excuse but LucasArts' isn't?

LucasArts gave them a schedule, unofficially extended it, and then reneged. They have themselves to blame for taking them at their word.

By the way, Icewind Dale 2 was made in 10 months and its release didn't make Interplay consider shutting down its forums (they had to do that for unrelated reasons). It also has a fantastic endgame.

 

[pippin]

Feargus himself is to blame for the KOTOR2 fiasco because he trusted verbal agreements (something he himself has admitted). On the other hand, New Vegas' faults can be partly attributed to Bethesda's clunky engine, and unfair management. In the long run, New Vegas is way more accepted in the mainstream community than KOTOR2, at least from what I've seen. KOTOR1 seems to be more important to modern rpgamers than FO3, and with justice imo.

I do consider NWN2 as a solid effort. Your opinions might be different but it added a lot of variety on top of the old NWN systems (which is obv welcome). Storm of Zehir is probably the most overlooked crpg in recent years, but it has to compete against MotB....

By the way, Icewind Dale 2 was made in 10 months and its release didn't make Interplay consider shutting down its forums (they had to do that for unrelated reasons). It also has a fantastic endgame.

Josh said IWD 2 was meant as a reward for long time IE fans more than a thing on its own, which can explain why the game is so relentless when it comes to combat. I do consider it to be a somewhat hardcore experience for people unfamiliar with IE, since you don't know there's practically no wizard scrolls in the early stages of the game. Under that perspective, IWD2 fits more with the old school concept of sequel, and not with the "franchise" mindset with forces devs to think they will have new people playing the game in their 6th entry.

 

[SniperHF]

Did Valve actually remove steam reviews from the score that were granted keys via kickstarter or is that just the policy going forward? Cause that could play a role as well.

 

[vonAchdorf]

They show all reviews again by default and you can toggle a switch to see only Steam purchases.

 

[Fairfax]

It's not hyperbole if it comes straight from Feargus.

The ME3 comparison is silly regardless.

Eh, too much hype. Pretty much everyone who's played 3.0 agrees it's so much better now than it was at launch.

Last 30 days: 73%

Comparable to NWN2. Sawyer salvaged NWN2 into something that made Obsidian money through royalty checks, Avellone did not.

Yes I'm aware that NWN2 was helped out by the fact that it's D&D, a sequel to a success, and likely Big Brother Bioware's leverage in getting them that royalty deal in the contract (the official NWN2 forums were hosted by Bioware, so they must have been involved).

Completely different situations. Unlike Sawyer leading NWN2, MCA was still working under Chris Parker and SEGA's orders with a team stuck in development hell. NWN2 was far from finished and Ferret Baudoin fucked them over, but they had a lot more freedom and its development wasn't nearly as troubled.
And as you said yourself, it had a lot more going for it than AP.

Despite all that, I thought AP was much better than NWN2 OC, and most of the codex would stand by that (#29 x #61 in the top 70).

LucasArts gave them a schedule, unofficially extended it, and then reneged. They have themselves to blame for taking them at their word.

That only speaks to Feargus as CEO.

By the way, Icewind Dale 2 was made in 10 months and its release didn't make Interplay consider shutting down its forums (they had to do that for unrelated reasons). It also has a fantastic endgame.

Speaking of IWD, the only MCA-led project from that time is PS:T (also same engine, same IP, same studio), and I don't think I need to compare the two.

 

[Roguey]

The ME3 comparison is silly regardless.

The fan response wasn't different. The only difference was on Obsidian's side in that they would have loved to fix the ending through a patch, but Lucas Arts was going down the tubes and didn't care.

Last 30 days: 73%

Most of those are people playing 10-20 hours and deciding it's not for them, which is fair enough. 73% liking and 27% disliking is still a good ratio.

Completely different situations. Unlike Sawyer leading NWN2, MCA was still working under Chris Parker and SEGA's orders with a team stuck in development hell. NWN2 was far from finished and Ferret Baudoin fucked them over, but they had a lot more freedom and its development wasn't nearly as troubled.

And with Torment, Avellone was working under Henkel, and with kotor2 he also had Chris Parker as producer.

You're going to have to make a decision here to give Avellone credit/blame for all these things, or none of them. With the exception of New Vegas DLC, he's never been a project director.

Despite all that, I thought AP was much better than NWN2 OC, and most of the codex would stand by that (#29 x #61 in the top 70).

Same.

(not Josh's fault though)

That only speaks to Feargus as CEO.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comme...is_avellone_tim_cain_and_josh_sawyer/c6mtkbg/

Chris Avellone looks back:

The issues with K2 are my fault, and no one else's.

Speaking of IWD, the only MCA-led project from that time is PS:T (also same engine, same IP, same studio), and I don't think I need to compare the two.

The IWD and Torment engines are actually pretty different. Some of the problems that occurred with IWD2 were due to the fact that one of the designers tried to do some complex things that would have worked in Torment, but didn't in IWD.

 

[Fairfax]

Most of those are people playing 10-20 hours and deciding it's not for them, which is fair enough. 73% liking and 27% disliking is still a good ratio.

I don't see how that's good. The game's completion rate is still extremely low, and even worse than the completion rate is the number of players who completed Act II (22.1%).

And with Torment, Avellone was working under Henkel, and with kotor2 he also had Chris Parker as producer.

You're going to have to make a decision here to give Avellone credit/blame for all these things, or none of them. With the exception of New Vegas DLC, he's never been a project director.

That was a fancy title the guy gave himself, but if you look at the actual credits he's listed as one of the producers. I've seen some say that was the team's way of demoting him and giving the credit he actually deserved, but who knows?
Anyway, everyone knows the extent of MCA's work and influence in the game. Don't see your point here.

That only speaks to Feargus as CEO.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comme...is_avellone_tim_cain_and_josh_sawyer/c6mtkbg/

Chris Avellone looks back:

The issues with K2 are my fault, and no one else's.

His philosophy is that if you're at the helm, you take the blame. Even in AP's case, he was the one out there doing interviews and taking the heat for the game's failures.
In KOTOR2's case, they got fucked over because of a bad deal, so I respect him for openly blaming himself, but I don't think it's his fault at all.

At the end of the day, PoE was the best chance Sawyer ever had to make a better game than PS:T. He was Project Lead, Lead Designer and Systems Designer, and he also had more time and resources than the PS:T team ever did.
Sure, it sold more, but these are different times. As far commercial success goes, with the talent, resources and hype behind the game, it should've been at least as successful as D:OS, but it wasn't even close.

 

[Semper]

As far commercial success goes, with the talent, resources and hype behind the game, it should've been at least as successful as D:OS, but it wasn't even close.

bullshit. it's hard to stand against multiplayer coop and wow-esque art design... the game just sold through hype, and the majority of buyers quit after a few hours. with poe you talked about its extremly low completion rate (9,6%), but what about dos' rate of 6,5%?

 

[Urthor]

Multiplayer co-op was D:OS's selling point? Was that really that big of a driving feature behind its success? Didn't even consider it tbh