Obsidian General Discussion Thread

[PlanHex]

I don't see how that's good. The game's completion rate is still extremely low, and even worse than the completion rate is the number of players who completed Act II (22.1%).

I don't think that's a very good point to bring up in this context: http://steamcommunity.com/stats/208580/achievements/

 

[StrongBelwas]

I don't think that's a very good point to bring up in this context: http://steamcommunity.com/stats/208580/achievements/

Those achievements were introduced long after the game was put on Steam so I'm not sure its a fair comparison.

 

[PlanHex]

Eh, fair enough then.
How do these percentages work anyway? Says "% of all players", not owners. So only applies if you've actually fired up the game? Or only if you fired up the game after achievements were added?

 

[Fairfax]

bullshit. it's hard to stand against multiplayer coop and wow-esque art design... the game just sold through hype, and the majority of buyers quit after a few hours. with poe you talked about its extremly low completion rate (9,6%), but what about dos' rate of 6,5%?

On the other hand, D:OS is turn-based, had (slightly) worse reviews and less hype behind its KS campaign.
And yeah, that's a terrible completion rate, I've mentioned that before. I'd say it's big reason why they didn't make more money in the D:OS2 campaign.

Multiplayer co-op was D:OS's selling point? Was that really that big of a driving feature behind its success? Didn't even consider it tbh

I don't think it was, but it's hard to say.

Those achievements were introduced long after the game was put on Steam so I'm not sure its a fair comparison.

And more than 10 years after the game's release.

 

[agris]

Speaking of IWD, the only MCA-led project from that time is PS:T (also same engine, same IP, same studio), and I don't think I need to compare the two.

The IWD and Torment engines are actually pretty different. Some of the problems that occurred with IWD2 were due to the fact that one of the designers tried to do some complex things that would have worked in Torment, but didn't in IWD.

This is why your posts are so much troll-bait. Fairfax didn't say anything about how similar or different those versions of the IE are, or which game had more problems during development, he's directly saying PST is better than IWD2. Your comment literally has nothing to do with his assertion. You aren't stupid, you know this. You misdirect for the lolz and we're all dumber for having read it.

aside

I know you aren't interested in real discussion and instead focus on trolling the codex / pushing your weird agenda, but I also don't think your comment is correct in and of itself. I believe it was JES himself who said that the largest development challenge in IWD2, aside from time, was the decision to use the 3.5e ruleset. A decision he made.

I'll bite though- what feature, from Torment's young under-developed IE engine iteration, was trying to be implemented?

 

[Bonerbill]

Multiplayer co-op was D:OS's selling point? Was that really that big of a driving feature behind its success? Didn't even consider it tbh

It's one of the main reason why many of my steam friends got the game. I seriously doubt that it being a CRPG or its turn based combat was the reason why it sold a lot.

 

[retamar]

Multiplayer co-op was D:OS's selling point? Was that really that big of a driving feature behind its success? Didn't even consider it tbh

It's one of the main reason why many of my steam friends got the game. I seriously doubt that it being a CRPG or its turn based combat was the reason why it sold a lot.

Same here, quite a few of my friends have this game, they played around 15 hours and jumped on to the next multi/coop/online game on top of the steam charts. They are already talking about buying the second one, Fargo knows where the money is. W3 will sell like hotcakes.

 

[tuluse]

bullshit. it's hard to stand against multiplayer coop and wow-esque art design... the game just sold through hype, and the majority of buyers quit after a few hours. with poe you talked about its extremly low completion rate (9,6%), but what about dos' rate of 6,5%?

On the other hand, D:OS is turn-based, had (slightly) worse reviews and less hype behind its KS campaign.
And yeah, that's a terrible completion rate, I've mentioned that before. I'd say it's big reason why they didn't make more money in the D:OS2 campaign.

Larian is the only company with a million dollar plus kickstarted game to get more money after releasing than they did with their original campaign.


Also completion percentage is shit, and doesn't mean anything. If someone got 40 hours of fun out of a game, but didn't finish they still had 40 hours of fun.

 

[Roguey]

This is why your posts are so much troll-bait. Fairfax didn't say anything about how similar or different those versions of the IE are, or which game had more problems during development, he's directly saying PST is better than IWD2. Your comment literally has nothing to do with his assertion. You aren't stupid, you know this. You misdirect for the lolz and we're all dumber for having read it.

He said they used the same engine. That is false.

I know you aren't interested in real discussion and instead focus on trolling the codex / pushing your weird agenda, but I also don't think your comment is correct in and of itself. I believe it was JES himself who said that the largest development challenge in IWD2, aside from time, was the decision to use the 3.5e ruleset. A decision he made.

I'll bite though- what feature, from Torment's young under-developed IE engine iteration, was trying to be implemented?

Fortunately both these things are addressed in the same post.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/49192-iwd2s-use-of-3e-was-a-mistake/#entry837873

Depends, did focusing on the change take away from improving other aspects of the game - coherent story, bugs, NPC development and so on....

Not really, no. Most of the work was on myself and programming, and I didn't spend the majority of my time working on it. The other designers were barely affected by any of the 2nd Ed./3E changeover stuff. As with any game, IWD2 had bugs, but the number and severity of bugs was pretty mild compared to the other IE games.

Most of the major flaws in IWD2 were developed during the first few months of the project, when we believed we were on a much shorter timeline. It was difficult to restore coherency or make other large course corrections later on. The 3E implementation was on a three-phase timeline that Malavon and I outlined early on. We never really knew if we were going to hit Phase 2 or 3, but luckily we did.

EDIT: A lot of the coherency issues came to light relatively late in the project, when we started doing extensive playthroughs. By that time, we could recognize that there were problems, but we didn't have time to overhaul the areas. For example, Targos and Shaengarne and the Ice Temple all feel very different and had many different problems during the course of development. It probably would have taken a long time to get those three areas to feel "right" and to better establish the story and characters in them.

Areas like the Fell Wood and Black Raven Monastery were the victims of vision exceeding grasp -- not because Dave made bad inherently bad designs, but because he kept running into engine and scripting limitations. There were aspects of the engine with which he was familiar on PS:T that were different in IWD2's code base, but he often didn't realize the difference until he had put a certain amount of time and effort into going down a particular path. He was disappointed with how he wound up having to implement those areas.

 

[Fairfax]

He said they used the same engine. That is false.

Engines are updated and modified all the time. It's still the Infinity Engine.

The argument started because you said Sawyer is the better director and delivers hits that MCA can't. It's a silly comparison, with Sawyer having several projects as director under his belt while MCA only has 2. My point about PS:T x IWD1/2 is that it's the closest thing to a comparison on similar terms and context, and PS:T is infinitely better. It's still not a good comparison because it's a purely hypothetical contest and there's always something going for/against each project. More or less time, Planescape x Forgotten Realms, different team members, etc.
Even if you're talking commercial success alone, neither PS:T nor IWD were hits. IWD was more profitable, but it was far from a hit.

Also, alhough there are many excuses for IWD1/2 being inferior, there's no excuse for PoE. He had the time, resources, talented co-workers, exposure, and freedom to deliver something that could rival BG2 or PS:T, but fell way short. They had everything they need to blow the competition out of the water and create a hit, but D:OS was a lot more successful despite having less appeal. TB combat, no big names, no beloved brand, smaller budget, (slightly) worse reviews, fewer backers, less exposure, and so on.

You may argue MCA's PoE wouldn't have been any better or more successful, but we'll never know. Perhaps with Sawyer's dream RPG and MCA's pet project coming up the argument will be put to rest.

 

[HoboForEternity]

resources

except they're not.

even 4 mil that PoE got + their own investment wouldn't be enough to fully realize their vision of PoE. making games is expensive, especially for the level of graphics/detail they aim with PoE, plus at that time they still have to make their own script for the unity engine they use now.

 

[Roguey]

IWD1/2 is that it's the closest thing to a comparison on similar terms and context, and PS:T is infinitely better. It's still not a good comparison because it's a purely hypothetical contest and there's always something going for/against each project. More or less time, Planescape x Forgotten Realms, different team members, etc.
Even if you're talking commercial success alone, neither PS:T nor IWD were hits. IWD was more profitable, but it was far from a hit.

I don't know why you're treating IWD as a Sawyer game, it didn't even have a lead designer. Once again, Chris Parker played the role of producer. Icewind Dale 2 gave Interplay more money when they really needed it, whereas some sort of Torment-esque game made within the same amount of time would not.

Also, alhough there are many excuses for IWD1/2 being inferior, there's no excuse for PoE. He had the time, resources, talented co-workers, exposure, and freedom to deliver something that could rival BG2

No.

Pillars of Eternity was a success, period. If it was not a success there would be no PoE 2, Josh Sawyer wouldn't be design director of the studio, and Urquhart wouldn't have promised Josh he could do his low budget turn based historical RPG once PoE 2 is finished.

 

[Fry]

MCA's pet project coming up

?

 

[Grunker]

there's no excuse for PoE.

Y'all niggas need to get out more. Codex is the only place that harbors a majority resentment for PoE.

 

[Fairfax]

Pillars of Eternity was a success, period. If it was not a success there would be no PoE 2, Josh Sawyer wouldn't be design director of the studio, and Urquhart wouldn't have promised Josh he could do his low budget turn based historical RPG once PoE 2 is finished.

Commercial success. Doesn't mean the game is nearly as good as it could've been, and it sure as hell didn't deliver what they promised.

MCA's pet project coming up

?

He's been teasing a "pet project" for a while, and now he seems to be creating a new studio.

Y'all niggas need to get out more. Codex is the only place that harbors a majority resentment for PoE.

You're taking that out of context. I actually enjoyed PoE, though I thought it was far from great. I meant this time there's no excuse as in "publisher fucked them over" or "not enough time".

 

[Rev]

Have you played TWM, Fairfax? Writing is maybe a bit better but not enough that will make a difference if you didn't like it in the OC, and the new companions weren't great either and had the same flawed execution (aka they're underdeveloped), but other than that I found the expansion improved almost everything which could be better in the base game (although tb, I still enjoyed PoE a lot, even if it could've been better), most of all the area and encounter design and combat, also the CYOA parts were better and frequently checked the party skills, abilities and spells.

 

[Fairfax]

Have you played TWM, Fairfax? Writing is maybe a bit better but not enough that will make a difference if you didn't like it in the OC, and the new companions weren't great either and had the same flawed execution (aka they're underdeveloped), but other than that I found the expansion improved almost everything which could be better in the base game (although tb, I still enjoyed PoE a lot, even if it could've been better), most of all the area and encounter design and combat, also the CYOA parts were better and frequently checked the party skills, abilities and spells.

I have not. The patches do seem like improvements and the expansion looks interesting, but I don't have an earlier save to play it at recommended levels, and I probably won't start a new playthrough until shortly before the sequel.

 

[J_C]

I wonder how a that would make MCA feel.

Avellone never delivered a hit. The reception to kotor 2 very nearly made Urquhart shut down the forums and Alpha Protocol bombed.

Then look at Sawyer's record. His worst, NWN2, did well enough for them to get royalty checks.

What are you saying? Kotor 2 and AP still has a cult following, meanwhile nobody cares about NWN2 anymore? I think MCA just lays back with a smug grin on his face now. His games might not be a financial hit, but people remember them for a long time as flawed gems.

 

[Roguey]

What are you saying? Kotor 2 and AP still has a cult following, meanwhile nobody cares about NWN2 anymore? I think MCA just lays back with a smug grin on his face now. His games might not be a financial hit, but people remember them for a long time as flawed gems.

I'm saying this is the reason why Feargus is rolling out the red carpet for Josh and why Chris never got it.

 

[Bubbles]

When I think "broad mainstream appeal", I think Josh Sawyer.

 

[Rev]

I have not. The patches do seem like improvements and the expansion looks interesting, but I don't have an earlier save to play it at recommended levels, and I probably won't start a new playthrough until shortly before the sequel.

Got it, I felt the same about starting a new game but luckily I had an old save I could use. It was dumb of them to put the expansion mid-game, if they set it after the end like MotB it would've been easier to play and probably more successful, even.

 

[Sentinel]

Obsidian have always done outstanding sequels. Thing is, they've always done sequels to other people's games.
I'm curious to see how they'll fare with sequels to their own games.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Obsidian have always done outstanding sequels. Thing is, they've always done sequels to other people's games.
I'm curious to see how they'll fare with sequels to their own games.

They are good at making great sequels to shit games. That's not exactly an achievement.

 

[Sentinel]

Obsidian have always done outstanding sequels. Thing is, they've always done sequels to other people's games.
I'm curious to see how they'll fare with sequels to their own games.

They are good at making great sequels to shit games. That's not exactly an achievement.

Well, according to the Codex Hivemind, Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny are shit. So everything goes as planned so far.

 

[Delterius]

Obsidian have always done outstanding sequels. Thing is, they've always done sequels to other people's games.
I'm curious to see how they'll fare with sequels to their own games.

Storm of Zehir and Mask of the Betrayer comes to mind. But then again, rolling a critical on the saving throw for the expansions is a Neverwinter Nights tradition.