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Obsidian General Discussion Thread

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,413
Location
Jersey for now
Why do so many devs decide to simply take the easy way out and nerf an ability? If it feels overpowered, it might be because all the other abilities are under powered or bland by comparison. If it means it excels too easily and becomes the go-to choice, then you need to do two things: bring other abilities up to snuff and increase combat difficulty, either by improving encounter design or giving the enemies those same abilities, or both.

But, that simply requires too much effort. So what do people do? Nerf the fun out of it.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
You do realise that OP is a relative concept? I.e. buffing everything else is exactly the same as nerfing one thing, only the labels change.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
The issue with Sawyers games is that combat design is close to non existent its just trash enemies copy pasted on top of each other most of them dont even function in combat at once (they get stuck behind each other and stand idle in PoE1&2) so he can nerf player as much as he want (which he did in Deadfire they nerfed most of the item enchants and special abilities after the launch) its not gonna make game balanced or challenging it makes it more boring where encounter lasts way too long because few remaining bruiser enemies cant kill you but can soak all your damage for a while, also it made it so that auto attacking stuff to death and basing your builds on auto attack damage (preferably auto attacks with AOE/Bounces nothing is more op than this in Deadfire) is the superior way to play pillars combat
 
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Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
3,152
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Jamrock District
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
The issue with Sawyers games is that combat design is close to non existent its just trash enemies copy pasted on top of each other most of them dont even function in combat at once (they get stuck behind each other and stand idle in PoE1&2) so he can nerf player as much as he want (which he did in Deadfire they nerfed most of the item enchants and special abilities after the launch) its not gonna make game balanced or challenging it makes it more boring where encounter lasts way too long because few remaining bruiser enemies cant kill you but can soak all your damage for a while, also it made it so that auto attacking stuff to death and basing your builds on auto attack damage (preferably auto attacks with AOE/Bounces nothing is more op than this in Deadfire) is the superior way to play pillars combat

IWD2 had (some) good encounter design.
 

Fairfax

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
3,518
The issue with Sawyers games is that combat design is close to non existent its just trash enemies copy pasted on top of each other most of them dont even function in combat at once (they get stuck behind each other and stand idle in PoE1&2) so he can nerf player as much as he want (which he did in Deadfire they nerfed most of the item enchants and special abilities after the launch) its not gonna make game balanced or challenging it makes it more boring where encounter lasts way too long because few remaining bruiser enemies cant kill you but can soak all your damage for a while, also it made it so that auto attacking stuff to death and basing your builds on auto attack damage (preferably auto attacks with AOE/Bounces nothing is more op than this in Deadfire) is the superior way to play pillars combat

IWD2 had (some) good encounter design.
And he's not responsible for it. :M
 

Akratus

Self-loathing fascist drunken misogynist asshole
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May 7, 2013
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0
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The Netherlands
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I just finished replaying Dead Money on my current New Vegas playthrough, and it really feels like the last time I'll go through the game and see brand new things, few as they are. And in Dead Money I just got the ending where all three companions are alive at the end for the first time. It really felt like I had finally closed the book on that one, and god damn but seeing those ending slides, hearing the unique narration. . what a wave of melancholy. . . and then contentedness afterwards. I like the other DLCs but I doubt they will end on such a high, bittersweet note like this one did. Definitely the best piece of dlc ever made, in my opinion.

Couldn't not make a note of it somewhere, and here's a good a place as any.
 
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Prime Junta

Guest
I officially handed in my Obsidian fan card in the TOW thread and feel the need to unburden myself.

I became an Obsidian fan because I felt that they were trying to do something that other comparable studios weren't. That their heart was in the right place, even if their execution often fell short of their ambition. It was perpetually the might-have-been studio, making games that just fell short of their potential to true greatness. The only exception to this is Fallout: New Vegas, where the chips really did fall right. It has the worldbuilding, the faction mechanics, the writing, the scope, all combined with gameplay that's not actively offputting at worst and actually fun at best. It's also not afraid to go where the logic of the setting or the characters take it, even if those places can be really dark, like Boone's companion quest for example.

KOTOR 2 has terrific writing. It's not quite peak Chris Avellone, but still up there. It takes the Star Wars tropes and inverts them, to surprise, delight, horrify, shock, and move. And it's tragically unfinished, with a truncated endgame, occasionally ugly levels, poor lighting, and padding, and it suffers from the silly gameplay it inherited from KOTOR1. But god damnit if it didn't try -- there was real passion here, real ideas, real creativity.

There was still a quite a bit of this left in Pillars of Eternity. It may not have been Josh's dream game, but he threw himself fully into making the best goddamned RTwP fantasy RPG system he could, and then kept hammering it until it actually became something good. Maybe you don't like his design approach (I do), but man did he ever give it all he got. Some of the same passion shows in other places too. The characters are for the most part well thought-out and well grounded in the world; they feel like real people with real agency, not just painted sticks. At this point though it was clear the Chris was deep into his death spiral -- his characters are cool and interesting but they feel like they're from some completely different game, the Grieving Mother in particular. And yes, the game is deeply flawed in many ways I won't go into here again. But damnit, they tried, and they revitalised a dying subgenre -- the isometric RTwP party-based cRPG. I don't think we would have PF:KM without Pillars of Eternity, and it helped clear the field for other mid-budget games as well.

This old fire had burned down to embers in Deadfire. Yes, it's big, it's competently built, it corrects many of the problems Pillars 1 had, but apart from a bit of Josh's colonial history and politics autism it feels like a potboiler. It's carefully calibrated to please the largest number of people, removing "problem" mechanics like per-rest abilities, and replacing the well-grounded characters with author self-inserts. Where Sagani and Kana Rua felt like actual characters, Xoti and Tekehu feel like Californian teenagers larping their characters. And it flopped.

And so we come to The Outer Worlds. Carefully anodyne, calibrated to offend nobody except people offended by the very existence of short-haired women, a one-note world with no depth or variety to it, populated entirely by the people of Pismo Beach in a larp. It's not even trying to do anything remotely interesting, it's just trying not to fail. And in the process it lost the very thing that made it worth attempting in the first place.

Fare thee well Obsidian, I loved you well. At least we will always have Vegas.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bonerbill

Augur
Joined
Nov 25, 2013
Messages
302
Location
North Carolina
I officially handed in my Obsidian fan card in the TOW thread and feel the need to unburden myself.

I became an Obsidian fan because I felt that they were trying to do something that other comparable studios weren't. That their heart was in the right place, even if their execution often fell short of their ambition. It was perpetually the might-have-been studio, making games that just fell short of their potential to true greatness. The only exception to this is Fallout: New Vegas, where the chips really did fall right. It has the worldbuilding, the faction mechanics, the writing, the scope, all combined with gameplay that's not actively offputting at worst and actually fun at best. It's also not afraid to go where the logic of the setting or the characters take it, even if those places can be really dark, like Boone's companion quest for example.

KOTOR 2 has terrific writing. It's not quite peak Chris Avellone, but still up there. It takes the Star Wars tropes and inverts them, to surprise, delight, horrify, shock, and move. And it's tragically unfinished, with a truncated endgame, occasionally ugly levels, poor lighting, and padding, and it suffers from the silly gameplay it inherited from KOTOR1. But god damnit if it didn't try -- there was real passion here, real ideas, real creativity.

There was still a quite a bit of this left in Pillars of Eternity. It may not have been Josh's dream game, but he threw himself fully into making the best goddamned RTwP fantasy RPG system he could, and then kept hammering it until it actually became something good. Maybe you don't like his design approach (I do), but man did he ever give it all he got. Some of the same passion shows in other places too. The characters are for the most part well thought-out and well grounded in the world; they feel like real people with real agency, not just painted sticks. At this point though it was clear the Chris was deep into his death spiral -- his characters are cool and interesting but they feel like they're from some completely different game, the Grieving Mother in particular. And yes, the game is deeply flawed in many ways I won't go into here again. But damnit, they tried, and they revitalised a dying subgenre -- the isometric RTwP party-based cRPG. I don't think we would have PF:KM without Pillars of Eternity, and it helped clear the field for other mid-budget games as well.

This old fire had burned down to embers in Deadfire. Yes, it's big, it's competently built, it corrects many of the problems Pillars 1 had, but apart from a bit of Josh's colonial history and politics autism it feels like a potboiler. It's carefully calibrated to please the largest number of people, removing "problem" mechanics like per-rest abilities, and replacing the well-grounded characters with author self-inserts. Where Sagani and Kana Rua felt like actual characters, Xoti and Tekehu feel like Californian teenagers larping their characters. And it flopped.

And so we come to The Outer Worlds. Carefully anodyne, calibrated to offend nobody except people offended by the very existence of short-haired women, a one-note world with no depth or variety to it, populated entirely by the people of Pismo Beach in a larp. It's not even trying to do anything remotely interesting, it's just trying not to fail. And in the process it lost the very thing that made it worth attempting in the first place.

Fare thee well Obsidian, I loved you well. At least we will always have Vegas.

faggot
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
And so we come to The Outer Worlds. Carefully anodyne, calibrated to offend nobody except people offended by the very existence of short-haired women

I know the media makes it seem like every gamer is a communist, but it was relatively ballsy from a "we're selling a product in probably the most capitalist country on earth and are owned by a major corporation" perspective to make a game about how evil capitalism is. Whether you agree with their take or not (I'm very skeptical right now) it was still not something I'd call "safe."
 

Prime Junta

Guest
And so we come to The Outer Worlds. Carefully anodyne, calibrated to offend nobody except people offended by the very existence of short-haired women

I know the media makes it seem like every gamer is a communist, but it was relatively ballsy from a "we're selling a product in probably the most capitalist country on earth and are owned by a major corporation" perspective to make a game about how evil capitalism is. Whether you agree with their take or not (I'm very skeptical right now) it was still not something I'd call "safe."

The Financial Times put “maybe capitalism has gone too far” on their cover ffs. Liz Warren is running further left than TOW.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,758
I know the media makes it seem like every gamer is a communist, but it was relatively ballsy from a "we're selling a product in probably the most capitalist country on earth and are owned by a major corporation" perspective to make a game about how evil capitalism is. Whether you agree with their take or not (I'm very skeptical right now) it was still not something I'd call "safe."

As many leftist journos are lamenting, it's not a "capitalism bad" game.
 

jf8350143

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Messages
1,358
Again, if singler player with 0 micro transcation(not even pre-order bonus and such) is considered "safe", Starfield will be out for a year now instead of Fallout 76.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I'm 10 hours in and can't speak to anything beyond that, but so far I'd call it a "capitalism run amok with no oversight is bad" game.

Yup, the centrist/Elizabeth Warren take.

It's also the "we're all just people m'kay" take, the "revolutionaries are naive and dangerous" take, and the "we must consider all sides of the question before taking action" take, and the "there is some good in everyone" take.

Oh, and also, the "you need to kill your ego to become enlightened" take.

Seriously. Kill it by shooting it in the face. I shit you not. You also need to pass an Intelligence check. And take psychedelics.

Seriously, if it gets any more California my computer's going to start sprouting palm trees and Zinfandel.
 
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cvv

Arcane
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Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,978
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is.
Is there no general thread for New Vegas? Nvm this one is fine.

After the sad embarrassment that is Outer Worlds I started up New Vegas again, to have a fresh comparison. Took about 30 mins to set up the mods but whatever.

My thoughts - the writing, vibe and world are the biggest assets. Feels so nice to be transported from the goofy, sick feminist dystopia of TOW to a place this cool. It's really one of the best videogame worlds ever created. Tbh the writing does seem a bit less impressive today, after Witcher 3 raised the bar so high, but it's still comfortably above the industry average. The main quest is great, the factions are great, only most of the side quests are kindda meh.

However once I again I got reminded why I barely forced myself to finish the game all those 5 years ago I played it last and never even touched the DLCs. The engine is a huge ball on a chain for NV. The combat felt clunky and wooden even 10 years ago, let alone now. Everything is brown and buttfugly. Plus the game still freezes every hour or so, despite all the anti-crash mods and .ini fixes.

Playing the game is like eating an icecream in a dirty public toilet in Pakistan. The taste is nice but the decor and stench make it hard to enjoy it.
 
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
1,121
I officially handed in my Obsidian fan card in the TOW thread and feel the need to unburden myself.

I became an Obsidian fan because I felt that they were trying to do something that other comparable studios weren't. That their heart was in the right place, even if their execution often fell short of their ambition. It was perpetually the might-have-been studio, making games that just fell short of their potential to true greatness. The only exception to this is Fallout: New Vegas, where the chips really did fall right. It has the worldbuilding, the faction mechanics, the writing, the scope, all combined with gameplay that's not actively offputting at worst and actually fun at best. It's also not afraid to go where the logic of the setting or the characters take it, even if those places can be really dark, like Boone's companion quest for example.

KOTOR 2 has terrific writing. It's not quite peak Chris Avellone, but still up there. It takes the Star Wars tropes and inverts them, to surprise, delight, horrify, shock, and move. And it's tragically unfinished, with a truncated endgame, occasionally ugly levels, poor lighting, and padding, and it suffers from the silly gameplay it inherited from KOTOR1. But god damnit if it didn't try -- there was real passion here, real ideas, real creativity.

There was still a quite a bit of this left in Pillars of Eternity. It may not have been Josh's dream game, but he threw himself fully into making the best goddamned RTwP fantasy RPG system he could, and then kept hammering it until it actually became something good. Maybe you don't like his design approach (I do), but man did he ever give it all he got. Some of the same passion shows in other places too. The characters are for the most part well thought-out and well grounded in the world; they feel like real people with real agency, not just painted sticks. At this point though it was clear the Chris was deep into his death spiral -- his characters are cool and interesting but they feel like they're from some completely different game, the Grieving Mother in particular. And yes, the game is deeply flawed in many ways I won't go into here again. But damnit, they tried, and they revitalised a dying subgenre -- the isometric RTwP party-based cRPG. I don't think we would have PF:KM without Pillars of Eternity, and it helped clear the field for other mid-budget games as well.

This old fire had burned down to embers in Deadfire. Yes, it's big, it's competently built, it corrects many of the problems Pillars 1 had, but apart from a bit of Josh's colonial history and politics autism it feels like a potboiler. It's carefully calibrated to please the largest number of people, removing "problem" mechanics like per-rest abilities, and replacing the well-grounded characters with author self-inserts. Where Sagani and Kana Rua felt like actual characters, Xoti and Tekehu feel like Californian teenagers larping their characters. And it flopped.

And so we come to The Outer Worlds. Carefully anodyne, calibrated to offend nobody except people offended by the very existence of short-haired women, a one-note world with no depth or variety to it, populated entirely by the people of Pismo Beach in a larp. It's not even trying to do anything remotely interesting, it's just trying not to fail. And in the process it lost the very thing that made it worth attempting in the first place.

Fare thee well Obsidian, I loved you well. At least we will always have Vegas.

4UbSUnN.jpg

I'm sorry sis, but you betrayed the squad
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,558
Location
Bulgaria
I officially handed in my Obsidian fan card in the TOW thread and feel the need to unburden myself.

I became an Obsidian fan because I felt that they were trying to do something that other comparable studios weren't. That their heart was in the right place, even if their execution often fell short of their ambition. It was perpetually the might-have-been studio, making games that just fell short of their potential to true greatness. The only exception to this is Fallout: New Vegas, where the chips really did fall right. It has the worldbuilding, the faction mechanics, the writing, the scope, all combined with gameplay that's not actively offputting at worst and actually fun at best. It's also not afraid to go where the logic of the setting or the characters take it, even if those places can be really dark, like Boone's companion quest for example.

KOTOR 2 has terrific writing. It's not quite peak Chris Avellone, but still up there. It takes the Star Wars tropes and inverts them, to surprise, delight, horrify, shock, and move. And it's tragically unfinished, with a truncated endgame, occasionally ugly levels, poor lighting, and padding, and it suffers from the silly gameplay it inherited from KOTOR1. But god damnit if it didn't try -- there was real passion here, real ideas, real creativity.

There was still a quite a bit of this left in Pillars of Eternity. It may not have been Josh's dream game, but he threw himself fully into making the best goddamned RTwP fantasy RPG system he could, and then kept hammering it until it actually became something good. Maybe you don't like his design approach (I do), but man did he ever give it all he got. Some of the same passion shows in other places too. The characters are for the most part well thought-out and well grounded in the world; they feel like real people with real agency, not just painted sticks. At this point though it was clear the Chris was deep into his death spiral -- his characters are cool and interesting but they feel like they're from some completely different game, the Grieving Mother in particular. And yes, the game is deeply flawed in many ways I won't go into here again. But damnit, they tried, and they revitalised a dying subgenre -- the isometric RTwP party-based cRPG. I don't think we would have PF:KM without Pillars of Eternity, and it helped clear the field for other mid-budget games as well.

This old fire had burned down to embers in Deadfire. Yes, it's big, it's competently built, it corrects many of the problems Pillars 1 had, but apart from a bit of Josh's colonial history and politics autism it feels like a potboiler. It's carefully calibrated to please the largest number of people, removing "problem" mechanics like per-rest abilities, and replacing the well-grounded characters with author self-inserts. Where Sagani and Kana Rua felt like actual characters, Xoti and Tekehu feel like Californian teenagers larping their characters. And it flopped.

And so we come to The Outer Worlds. Carefully anodyne, calibrated to offend nobody except people offended by the very existence of short-haired women, a one-note world with no depth or variety to it, populated entirely by the people of Pismo Beach in a larp. It's not even trying to do anything remotely interesting, it's just trying not to fail. And in the process it lost the very thing that made it worth attempting in the first place.

Fare thee well Obsidian, I loved you well. At least we will always have Vegas.
Cunta has thrown away the mantle of obsfag. You do love writing long posts,you could have just said "obsidian make boring games now,don't care about their garbage."
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I know the media makes it seem like every gamer is a communist, but it was relatively ballsy from a "we're selling a product in probably the most capitalist country on earth and are owned by a major corporation" perspective to make a game about how evil capitalism is. Whether you agree with their take or not (I'm very skeptical right now) it was still not something I'd call "safe."

As many leftist journos are lamenting, it's not a "capitalism bad" game.
It feels more Soviet than anything. "The board", ridiculous red tape(?!), an actual ministry of truth, etc., Almost as if it's a parody of itself making fun of people who can't see the parallels and take it at face value.
I was promised a libertarian paradise and this did not deliver.
 

Grauken

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
13,190
I was promised a libertarian paradise and this did not deliver.

You can PLAY it as a libertarian, which is what matters.

The game has dialogue options where you can endlessly drone on about how you hate taxes and the government, while also complaining that the government isn't doing more about those nasty SJWs that threaten your freedom of speech?
 

Modron

Arcane
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
11,156
The game has dialogue options where you can endlessly drone on about how you hate taxes and the government, while also complaining that the government isn't doing more about those nasty SJWs that threaten your freedom of speech?
Is that a question or a statement?
 

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