Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

I think Sawyer would agree that the content in the Athkatlan proper is fine. His issues with the cities' pacing likely have more to do with the numerous plot hooks that bring the player out of the city, into multiple locations at the same time. I'd disagree with him even then, though.

Nah.

I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla.

Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out or staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread the content out more.

 

[SCO]

Glorious, thanks $diety for common sense.

 

[Rake]

I think Sawyer would agree that the content in the Athkatlan proper is fine. His issues with the cities' pacing likely have more to do with the numerous plot hooks that bring the player out of the city, into multiple locations at the same time. I'd disagree with him even then, though.

Nah.

I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla.

Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out or staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread the content out more.

It seems to me that his main problem is one of pacing. The content in Athkatla was huge compaired to the rest of the game, and was consentrated at the start of the game whereas the late game (after the Underdark) was too thin. So the main problem wasn't the content density itself but the spread (or lack of) of that content.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

No, Athkatla was fine. We shouldn't expect anything less.

And why is that actually? I expect the Obsidian to deliver on the writing/atmosphere front and the game to look beautiful, those will be very likely enough for me to love the game and replay it many times over.

Expecting even one city (and they promised two, heh) that is anywhere near the level of Athkatla falls into the same group as combat system and encounter design, I'm hopeful they'll deliver but there's a good chance they'll atleast partially fail to do so.

 

[DeepOcean]

After the TERRIBLE W2 Beta release my expectations tends to zero for this one :/

Man, people can disagree with Sawyer's ideas but can't say he doesn't know what he wants to do and just do lip service to the oldschool crowd.

 

[Semper]

We will have more indoors than outdoors because outdoor maps take significantly longer to create than dungeons or interiors.

Of course outdoors probably counts cities as well but those cities also have plenty of building interiors.

you missed the important part:

We have a good number of dungeons and a good number of outdoor or wilderness maps.

they differentiate between an outdoor and a wilderness map. as you noticed the outdoor map includes city areas and there's no doubt that those are the most time consuming and artistically demanding (thus expensive) areas. these scenes, together with the dungeons, will also "define" the setting. no developer would outsource such an important part of their product. they farm work out which mostly is repetitive and doesn't need much monitoring, in one two words: wilderness areas. glue together some assets, place vegetation randomly and use a special prop to spice up the exploration part. that's exactly the work reserved for sweatshops, cheap mass-produced areas.

 

[Roguey]

they differentiate between an outdoor and a wilderness map.

He said "outdoor or wilderness" not "outdoor and wilderness".

 

[Morality Games]

I think Sawyer would agree that the content in the Athkatlan proper is fine. His issues with the cities' pacing likely have more to do with the numerous plot hooks that bring the player out of the city, into multiple locations at the same time. I'd disagree with him even then, though.

Nah.

I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla.

Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out or staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread the content out more.

It seems to me that his main problem is one of pacing. The content in Athkatla was huge compaired to the rest of the game, and was consentrated at the start of the game whereas the late game (after the Underdark) was too thin. So the main problem wasn't the content density itself but the spread (or lack of) of that content.

Those kind of flaws don't bother me that much. Gives a game character.

 

[Roguey]

Bioware created the Bioware Formula (linear beginning, choose among hubs, end-game) as a response to the problems they themselves had with the content-bloated 2nd chapter.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Bioware created the Bioware Formula (linear beginning, choose among hubs, end-game) as a response to the problems they themselves had with the content-bloated 2nd chapter.

So? It doesn't mean they were right in doing so and that it's a change for the better. Bioware went in a different direction after BG2 in many other areas as well, however PoE kickstarter wasn't pitched as a spiritual successor to Kotor and Mass Effect but rather to IE games. Given that BG2 is widely regarded (though not on Codex obviously) as the best IE game many will expect a similar game/experience and regardless how Josh personally feels about it, sprawling, packed with quests/content city of Athkatla is considered to be one of the beast parts of that game by its fans (which obviously doesn't include genuises from SA and/or Obsidian forums who felt lost and disoriented in it).

 

[Delterius]

I think Sawyer would agree that the content in the Athkatlan proper is fine. His issues with the cities' pacing likely have more to do with the numerous plot hooks that bring the player out of the city, into multiple locations at the same time. I'd disagree with him even then, though.

Nah.

I really disliked being flooded with a million quests by every shmoe on the streets of Athkatla.

Being flooded with quests in Athkatla - To be honest, I don't think is a controversial opinion! I've seen many other players say the same thing. BG2 has a crazy amount of quests, which is great, but the density in Athkatla was a little too crazy. I think those quests should have been spread out or staggered in some other way. PE is going to have more of an exploration focus than BG2 (though not as much as BG), so I believe that will help spread the content out more.

The moment you're into the Waukeen's Promenade you begin receiving quests towards Trademeet; Umar and the De'Arnise Keep. That's a major portion of the content when compared to the mostly self contained region-quests in the Athkatlan proper, like the Bridge District's murder investigation.

 

[Roguey]

So? It doesn't mean they were right in doing so and that it's a change for the better.

It totally was though.

Given that BG2 is widely regarded (though not on Codex obviously) as the best IE game many will expect a similar game/experience and regardless how Josh personally feels about it, sprawling, packed with quests/content city of Athkatla is considered to be one of the beast parts of that game by its fans (which obviously doesn't include genuises from SA and/or Obsidian forums who felt lost and disoriented in it).

Pillars of Eternity is a spiritual successor to all the Infinity Engine games, not just Baldur's Gate 2. Their target for exploration/content density is in-between BG and BG2.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It totally was though.

That's totally debatable.

Pillars of Eternity is a spiritual successor to all the Infinity Engine games, not just Baldur's Gate 2.

That's all fine and dandy, doesn't change that most people will likely expect a BG2 successor (with better writing).

Their target for exploration/content density is in-between BG and BG2.

Pretty sure they were saying that about optional wilderness areas, not about content density overall. Regardless, we'll see how well they'll be able to convey that big city feel Bioware did with Athkatla in BG2(and with Baldur's Gate in BG1 to a lesser degree) and how they'll divide game content between chapters .[/quote]

 

[Infinitron]

That's all fine and dandy, doesn't change that most people will likely expect a BG2 successor (with better writing).

I don't think that's necessarily true. PoE is giving off a BG1 vibe more than anything (or maybe BG1 with wacky Icewind Dale dungeons)

More concretely, you can't have the "BG2 experience" without crazy epic high level adventures, and PoE will obviously be a low-to-mid level campaign. The story must start from the beginning.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I don't think that's necessarily true. PoE is giving off a BG1 vibe more than anything (or maybe BG1 with wacky Icewind Dale dungeons)

I wasn't commenting on how it's shaping up to be but what I think most (or atleast a significant portion of) backers will expect.

More concretely, you can't have the "BG2 experience" without crazy epic high level adventures, and PoE will obviously be a low-to-mid level campaign. The story must start from the beginning.

BG2 wasn't as epic as people remember right from the get go, do not confuse it with Throne of Bhaal, also Sawyer will no doubt seek to avoid the BG1 experience of melee combatants flailing at each other for 5 minutes without getting a single hit in and mages being one shotted by a single arrow from a kobold or something so the actual game experience might very well end up being much more similar to the beginning of BG2 regardless of the actual level cap (and the fact that chars start from level 1) in the game.

 

[Infinitron]

I wasn't commenting on how it's shaping up to be but what I think most (or atleast a significant portion of) backers will expect.

What I meant is that I don't think that's what they're expecting, because I think most people realize (perhaps only subconsciously) that BG2 was the type of game that only a sequel can be.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

What I meant is that I don't think that's what they're expecting, because I think most people realize (perhaps only subconsciously) that BG2 was the type of game that only a sequel can be.

That's a good point, didn't think of it that way. However I still think there's a danger of BG2 becoming the measuring stick here, same as it is the case (to a certain degree) with Wasteland 2 and Fallout. Think about it:

-Icewind Dale games are linear dungeon crawlers.

-PST is a storyfag game.

-BG1 is seen as an inferior product to BG2 in every way and I reckon a good portion of players who swear by BG2 never even got through BG1 because they were frustrated by the beginning of the game when they miss all the time and are one shot by wolves.

 

[Rake]

^ That. As far as writing and story goes PE will be compaired to PS:T. In every other aspect,from size to encounters, BG2 will be the measuring stick in the mind of the backers.

 

[Sensuki]

Not every way and I don't think it would be *too hard* to beat BG1 in terms of content quality but there was something about the simplicity of it that worked.

I'm also with Roguey in that Twin Elms will not be as big as Defiance Bay. I think it's four areas, Defiiance Bay has 5. Trademeet didn't have THAT much content density, so maybe Trademeet x3 or something.

 

[hiver]

I fully expect the story of scope and density that will be as good and probably better and fuller in places then BG2 was.
(i played BG1 after BG2, as i usually do with all good games or books in my life - and loved its starting gameplay and getting one shotted. Man that was great.)

I dont see why writing would be compared to PST that directly at all. It wasnt a major part of the presentation of concept of the game, though it was mentioned as additional inspiration.

Actual writing of PST level of quality and depth is expected from Tides.

 

[Sensuki]

I'm sure we (the 'dex) have the combined autism to be able to compare the two games when it comes out - by number of exterior and interior maps and number of quests and such.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

Not every way and I don't think it would be *too hard* to beat BG1 in terms of content quality but there was something about the simplicity of it that worked.

Well I said "seen as", I wasn't giving my opinion but rather was guessing/estimating how the big portion of backers/potential buyers feel. Personally, there are a number of things I prefer in BG1 compared to the sequel (low level adventure feel, loot/equipment system, iron crisis story etc.) but I'm pretty sure I'm in minority in that regard.

 

[Wizfall]

About towns and quest/map density.
I like towns map which are very dense in content because otherwise it doesn't feel like a town and also that i like to revisit the same location often and still discover new things.
I dislike "exhausting" the content of a town maps too soon, the map become uninteresting except maybe to visit a trader.
Unlike other maps, towns sector should feel very "lively" with always something going on (like adding NPC with quests to towns maps latter or "unlocking" special speech/quest with NPC, doing that way could also prevent the feeling of being bombarded by quests all happening the same time).
For the same content and if the content is limited, I rather like a 3 sectors town than a 5 sectors one.

 

[Grunker]

Bioware created the Bioware Formula (linear beginning, choose among hubs, end-game) as a response to the problems they themselves had with the content-bloated 2nd chapter.

You think KotOR's hub-design (the archetypical BioWare formula) is better than bloated BG2?

bitch you be trippin'

The BioWare formula was typical modern vidya game design logic: to fix an issue, they boiled down and standardized the design to a point where the solution is clearly less compelling than the problem.

 

[skyst]

The only real issue that I ever had with the BG2 quest bloat of chapter 2 dealt with your travelling companions. Though I like the idea of some quests needing to be accomplished within a certain time frame, I think it was the wrong decision to tie these quests to the first NPCs that you recruit in the Copper Coronet. It is very possible to be balls deep in a side quest when Korgan decides it's time to bail to find his book or whatever, with no chance to make it back to the Graveyard District in time. My wife's first (and only) attempt at the game ended prematurely, having fallen into a similar trap with Anomen - apparently he turns hostile and tries to kill Aerie to boot (not so certain if it can actually happen, though this anecdote is told and retold whenever the game comes up among friends) . The actual amount of quests is fantastic and it makes sense for such a large city.

Compare the start of BG2 to the first quest hub of Dragon Age: Origins, the game that Bioware intended to bring back the IE/BG glory. I feel that we have established the wealth content of Athkatla. Lothering otoh has 2 recruitable NPCs, a handful of opportunities for dialogue skills (persuade or intimidate the Chasind, shopkeeper, etc) and a small quest to utilize each of the possible crafting skils (herbalism, traps and p-p-poison), just to get those out of the way for the rest of the game. Then you kill 3 packs of bandits and roll out.

What I found most damning about Lothering was how bland it felt. The town is your first impression of a town in Dragon Age: Origins, something that usually leaves and impression and sets the tone for the rest of an RPG (like that first time you wandered into Shady Sands, for instance). Athkatla was huge and complex, there were quests everywhere, people running around and even the ambient sounds participated in the fun. Lothering is said to be swarming with refugees, nearly absent of law and order and on the verge of being conquered by Darkspawn - yet the end goal of the zone is to clear those 3 packs of bandits.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this anymore, but TLDR; Athkatla/Act 2 works because it is a big, chaotic city full of meaningful quests where you can choose to do as many or as few as you'd like - many of which with multiple outcomes and even some reactivity from the game world. If you are going to have smaller quest hubs and fewer quests overall, be damn sure that they're meaningful, interwoven and full of c&c.