Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[MicoSelva]

HP is not a measure of health.

Which I never said it was. It is an abstract representation of it, and by far not the best one possible, but despite that still present in 98% of games.

 

[Athelas]

You guys are officially worse than Roguey.

 

[tuluse]

We agree, obviously, but what's the point of arguing with someone if you don't think they're wrong?

If someone doesn't know what they're talking about, it's not argument. It's either education or going in circles.

Argument is when you are trying to convince a person of something, not inform them of facts. Or it's a mutual reaching of understanding (or at least attempt).

 

[tuluse]

Which I never said it was. It is an abstract representation of it, and by far not the best one possible, but despite that still present in 98% of games.

Wrong. Health is only one part of it.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I'm not saying that simulationism cannot work, I'm saying it's one way to design systems out of many, legitimate ones.

Could've fooled me. But for argument's sake, then we agree that it's a shame that whereas there are plenty of simulationist pnp's like GURPS and Millenium's End, nothing remotely close to that has ever made it into a crpg.

AC is not a measure of a character's chance to dodge.

Unless you can explain to me the mechanical distinction between infinite DT and dodge, AC equals dodge in the sense that it solely affects the chance of an opponent to hit. My point was that an unarmored dodger behaving identically to an armored static target is what inspired the chance; larping that the one represents somebody dodging nimbly and the other absorbing all the damage doesn't change that.

 

[tuluse]

Unless you can explain to me the mechanical distinction between infinite DT and dodge, AC equals dodge in the sense that it solely affects the chance of an opponent to hit. My point was that an unarmored dodger behaving identically to an armored static target is what inspired the chance; larping that the one represents somebody dodging nimbly and the other absorbing all the damage doesn't change that.

Making different characters play differently is not the same at all as simulating reality. Not to mention DnD already had a difference. It had reflex saves for high dex characters. A heavily armored character can't dodge fireballs as well as a nimble one.

In 3E they added touch armor class.

 

[thesheeep]

Wtf? Page 1060? Was there ever a thread this big here?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

[
Making different characters play differently is not the same at all as simulating reality.

Sure, but my point in the pointless argument with Grunker was that purely as an outlook, simulationism or whatever you want to call it tends to foster such differences. Grunker may be right in his weird sudden every approach has merit twist, but that's why I put the AC=>DT change forward as a point of discussion: it's clear how a simulationist mindset takes this step (x doesn't make sense, so let's do y), but I think gamists can only explain it retroactively (DT + dodge is better because it allows for more meaningful builds).

 

[Space Satan]

This thread should be derailed before eternal war of "THAC0 is shit!" will start anew.

 

[Zetor]

To contribute to this scintillating conversation: which is the last commercially-released PC RPG (rereleases like BGEE don't count) that has a THAC0 mechanic?

answer

Any of the modern Japanese Wizardry clones, like Generation XTH (2011-ish for the last PC one).
Everything old is new again!

 

[Arkeus]

Most of the challenges I listed are logically obviated on successive playthroughs. If those elements were really as important to your enjoyment as you say they are, and so many of them manifest due to a lack of foreknowledge/familiarity, that doesn't add up. If literally "half the fun" of playing a bad build is discovering it's bad halfway through the game and you've played the game over and over and over, how does that circumstance (the discovery) even arise for you?



As for attributes and bad builds, let me put it this way: in D&D 3rd Ed., let's say Str, Dex, and Con are the only three stats in the game. You make a fighter and you can have an 18 in one, 16 in another, and a 10 in the last. The things that fighter is good at will shift significantly based on how you place those stats -- but the character is still clearly a fighter. You may be able to make a convincing case that one build is markedly better than another, but they'll all give you different strengths and weaknesses. Now figure out a way to do the same thing for Int, Wis, and Cha in the core rules and that's essentially what we're trying to do for PoE.



"No bad builds" is not the same as "all builds are equal" and "all builds are functionally the same". It means that if you distribute your points in different ways across our attributes for a character of any class, the strengths and weaknesses of the character will shift in interesting ways and still be viable. If you dump Resolve for your fighter, you will suffer. If you boost Resolve for your fighter, you will benefit. Some classes in D&D already do this better than others. Monks and paladins have a more difficult allocation of stats to consider than fighters. If you want to shift the difficulty of combat, we have a level of difficulty slider. The attribute system is not meant to be a covert way of haphazardly achieving difficulty.



As for buffing, we're not eliminating buffing, but we are eliminating pre-combat spell buffing. Buffs in PoE have an opportunity cost because they're combat only spells. They're good and they're powerful, but when you cast them, you're choosing between buffing or engaging in offense or taking some other action against hostile enemies that are engaging the party. As others have already posted, aside from hard counters (which often require metagaming or prescience), most pre-buffs are rote actions. There's nothing strategic about it other than asking the question, "How many resources would I like to expend now to increase the power of my party members?" That is a choice, but it's not much of one.

 

[Grunker]

his weird sudden every approach has merit twist

Oh please. Are you serious? If you have seen just a single debate about systems I have participated in, you'd know that the core of any argument I make, systems-wise, is that different approaches do different things. It has been the crux of all my arguments with people like Alex and Awor, for example. I have bitched about The Great RPG Battle of the 00's multiple times, where people would claim that their way was the only way to roleplay.

Me calling bullshit on the simulationists in terms of P:E has and always will be a matter of me being disgusted in the way they, like the fucking nerds from 00's, try to make their design philosophy and subjective desires the only correct way to make systems. And I said as much even in this debate. Looking at your writ about how simulationists/gamists think differently, you might not be that exempt from those points...

That you reacted on your sense of me rather than on my expressed opinion is hardly my fault, mate.

 

[Space Satan]

Most of the challenges I listed are logically obviated on successive playthroughs. If those elements were really as important to your enjoyment as you say they are, and so many of them manifest due to a lack of foreknowledge/familiarity, that doesn't add up. If literally "half the fun" of playing a bad build is discovering it's bad halfway through the game and you've played the game over and over and over, how does that circumstance (the discovery) even arise for you?

Unless you introduce certain items with attr requirement and you discover in a middle of the game that you screwed up and can't use armor\weapons\magic\etc. Or fucked up perks, because you lack 1 point of luck or perception. Very motivating and very fun indeed.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

This is all true, but Feargus most likely wants Josh & co. to also draw in as many biotards as possible. Just you wait and see, next update will probably be a video of MCA talking about romances - tears in his eyes, pistol to his head.

Nah, don't think they'll cater to biotards, writing in a way that would appeal to that group (juvenile dating sim with NPCs that have daddy issues, epic main story and black vs white approaches to dialogue) would IMO alienate a good part of Obsidian fanbase.

However I do think they intend to make things much easier for the part of Obsidian fanbase that finds IE games (or any games that don't have painfully simple mechanics and encounter design) too difficult to get into and cares for story above everything else (think of them as Biotards just replace the dating sim aspect of the game with story/writing) and the next-gen hipster crowd that likes to play games that are old-school/hardcore only superficially (isometric 2d party based game with fixed camera) but runs away at the first sign of depth and complexity.

Of course none of this will matter if they design the game around hard/expert difficulty setting and then scale it down for casuals, they can have their story mode difficulty for all I care as long as the game is challenging (in a satisfying way, not having the same monsters/enemies just with bloated stats) on the expert one. Of course it would be much easier if they just designed the game for the BG/IWD crowd but it's their choice to make it harder for themselves.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

That you reacted on your sense of me rather than on my expressed opinion is hardly my fault, mate.

Fine, fine, can't win this kind of argument.

Me calling bullshit on the simulationists in terms of P:E has and always will be a matter of me being disgusted in the way they, like the fucking nerds from 00's, try to make their design philosophy and subjective desires the only correct way to make systems. And I said as much even in this debate. Looking at your writ about how simulationists/gamists think differently, you might not be that exempt from those points...

Dude, you've said yourself countless times that the designs people like Draq and Excidium talk about are "dreams" disconnected from any crpg in existence. Can't speak for them, but I'd be perfectly happy with just one GURPS- or Millenium's End-like crpg, and everyone else can do whatever the hell they want.

 

[Grunker]

That you reacted on your sense of me rather than on my expressed opinion is hardly my fault, mate.

Fine, fine, can't win this kind of argument.

Me calling bullshit on the simulationists in terms of P:E has and always will be a matter of me being disgusted in the way they, like the fucking nerds from 00's, try to make their design philosophy and subjective desires the only correct way to make systems. And I said as much even in this debate. Looking at your writ about how simulationists/gamists think differently, you might not be that exempt from those points...

Dude, you've said yourself countless times that the designs people like Draq and Excidium talk about are "dreams" disconnected from any crpg in existence. Can't speak for them, but I'd be perfectly happy with just one GURPS- or Millenium's End-like crpg, and everyone else can do whatever the hell they want.

Dude. DUDE. I would love a GURPS-RPG as well. That is not what we're fucking discussing here. I am saying that just because we want a GURPS-RPG, we can't suddenly say "Josh isn't making P:E into a GURPS RPG, so P:E is shit!"

I don't care what DraQ wants. My beef with him and his ilk is that they constantly drag their own subjective wants and desires into this thread and use them as objective signs of Sawyer's poor design decisions. And that is fucking whack.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Dude. DUDE. I would love a GURPS-RPG as well. That is not what we're fucking discussing here. I am saying that just because we want a GURPS-RPG, we can't suddenly say "Josh isn't making P:E into a GURPS RPG, so P:E is shit!"

I don't care what DraQ wants. My beef with him and his ilk is that they constantly drag their own subjective wants and desires into this thread and use them as objective signs of Sawyer's poor design decisions. And that is fucking whack.

Except that Sawyer's expressed design philosophy behind this game is that D&D was trying to be too "quasi-simulationist" and that he is supposedly rectifying that. If you can't then discuss why you believe it should be the other way around because that's just subjective, well then we simply disagree on that matter I say.

 

[Grunker]

Dude. DUDE. I would love a GURPS-RPG as well. That is not what we're fucking discussing here. I am saying that just because we want a GURPS-RPG, we can't suddenly say "Josh isn't making P:E into a GURPS RPG, so P:E is shit!"

I don't care what DraQ wants. My beef with him and his ilk is that they constantly drag their own subjective wants and desires into this thread and use them as objective signs of Sawyer's poor design decisions. And that is fucking whack.

Except that Sawyer's expressed design philosophy behind this game is that D&D was trying to be too "quasi-simulationist" and that he is supposedly rectifying that. If you can't then discuss why you believe it should be the other way around because that's just subjective, well then we simply disagree on that matter I say.

I don't believe it should be the other way around. Hell, I'm not even sure what we're discussing at this point. If you go back to the start of this discussion, my only problem was that a few people criticized that a few decisions supposedly weren't rooted in proper simulation.

 

[Duraframe300]

Update by Brandon Adler, Producer

​

Hello, everyone. Like everyone here at Obsidian, I hope you had a great holiday season and were able to gorge on lots of treats and good food. This week I am going to go over a bit about the new Backer Portal (please log in if you haven't already), give a general update about where we are in our production, and show off some of the cool things that are happening in the game. In our next update we will be taking a more detailed look at some of the classes in Eternity.

Backer Info
Just a reminder to all of our backers, if you have not done so already, please head to the Backer Portal and complete your order. All backers need to go through the process so they can receive their rewards - even those that only have digital goods.

To start the process, click on "Manage My Pledge Now" and click on the "Select Reward" button on the pledge management screen. From here, you may select the tier you backed (or upgrade to a new tier), select additional add-ons, fill out any shipping information, and file your surveys.

Also, please make sure you fill out your surveys as soon as you can. If you have an NPC, item, inn, or portrait the sooner you get the information to us, the sooner we can make sure it gets into the game.

If you are having any issues, e-mail us at support@obsidian.net and we'll help you out quickly.

Areas
As most of you know, we finished up Od Nua (our mega-dungeon) in our last milestone. I have to say, I think it looks pretty amazing. Currently, the area team is working on our second big city, Twin Elms, and it is looking just as good. Here, take a look for yourself.

​

[URL='http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0070/pe-header.jpg']Ancient Engwithan ruins near Twin Elms.​

​

Without getting into too much detail, the Area Designers are fleshing out the end of the game right now and everything is really coming together. The area in the screenshot above looks like the perfect place for a big fight, huh?

Characters
Our character team has been cranking out new creatures and equipment.

We are almost completely through all of our A priority creatures. Soon we will be working on our B priority creatures and lots of equipment variations.
One of the creatures that was just finished to Alpha quality is the Cean Gŵla. These banshee-like undead are the spirits of women who died under particularly tragic or traumatic circumstances.

Take a look at the comparison images below.

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[/URL]

In-engine and concept comparison of the Cean Gŵla.[/img]​

UI
Most of our UI has either been implemented or mocked up to an Alpha level. The interface that we would like to show you today is the character sheet, which shows character and party information. You can find lots of useful info on the sheet including various party statistics, your reputations with Eternity factions, and character stats.

The character sheet has many useful player and party statistics.​

Features
Features have been going into the game pretty regularly.

We just recently moved to Unity 4.3 and, while this might not seem like a big deal, 4.3 has ushered in some long awaited features. Animation annotations, for example, were added to Unity. We can now call sound effects based on specific frames of animation. This makes things like footsteps possible.

A majority of our spells and abilities are in-game and usable. Josh has started auditing them and requesting changes for gameplay balance purposes. Tim has been quite busy with all of the small edits.

Strangely, one of our more minor features has gotten me the most excited. Just recently we have gotten the ability to set custom party formations and I am having a blast testing it out.

Concepts
Have you been wondering what some of the Pillars of Eternity gods look like? Wonder no more.

Representations of the gods Galawain and Woedica.​

Above you will see the representations of Galawain and Woedica, gods in the Eternity pantheon.

Woedica is known by many names including "The Exiled Queen," "The Burned Queen," "Oathbinder," and "The Strangler." Her domains include law, justice, oaths and promises, (rightful) rulership, hierarchies, memory, and vengeance.

Priestesses of the Exiled Queen serve as lawyers and judges in towns and urban centers, and the most prominent among them are advisers to kings and lords. They are of particular importance in the Empire of Aedyr, where by tradition, business contracts always require their endorsement. Her devotees are typically found in the upper classes, but any conservative person who longs for a vanished past will find a place in her faith. “When Woedica takes back her throne” is a common saying amongst her followers, signifying a utopian future when society will be properly ordered once again, and she will take her rightful place as ruler of the gods.

Galawain is patron of the hunt in all its forms, and he is honored by those whose occupations are concerned with pursuit and discovery. His faithful include frontiersmen, constables, treasure-seekers, explorers, and even scholars, many of whom wear his carved symbol – a dog’s head – around their wrist or neck. He is also protector of wild places and untamed wilderness, where the hunt manifests in its purest form as a daily struggle for survival.

That's it for this update. Make sure you head over to our forums to let us know what you think of anything you see here.
http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0070/pe-header.jpg

http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0070/pe-header.jpg

 

[Athelas]

OH MI GOSH.

 

[Duraframe300]

 

[Grunker]

Besides *vomit* percentile-based modifiers, that character sheet is making me cum buckets

 

[Hamster]

​

 

[tuluse]

I want to be a rascal

 

[Hormalakh]

Fucking hate Pallegina as a name.

The UI needs still a little tweaking. I'm sure the UI squirrels will be out of the woodwork soon enough posting some shitty, some nice ui ideas.

Grunker, I know what you mean. I wonder how easily that information can be incorporated to battle tactics. do i have to derive another number from that percentage and get a slide rule or can i make informed decisions quickly.

artwork is fucking fan-damn-tastic.