Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Chaotic_Heretic]

I thought Jews could read.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh, here's something I didn't notice. Josh Sawyer replied to a YouTube comment by ultra-grognard Crosmando: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMrUo9K9_-s&google_comment_id=z12yxfdodyrdvhxg204ccjgozpiuxder15g

Crosmando
5 days ago

Does the "Strength" (or whatever PoE is calling it) attribute affect stuff outside of carry size or melee/ranged damage? Most people don't have a problem with abstractions as long as there's some kind of explanation for why this attribute does this. Being physically strong affecting how hard you swing a sword or axe, or how far you can pull back the drawstring of a bow, that makes sense. But if you expand that to spells, it really makes little sense. Why should how physically strong an individual is affecting how much damage a magic missile, fireball, lightning bolt does?

Joshua Sawyer
4 days ago

+Crosmando Dump stats create problems for relative class balance and for the homogenization of 3.X/Pathfinder character builds. Practically-speaking, classes like monks and paladins will suffer mechanically if they neglect Str, Dex (monks), Con, Wis, and Cha (paladins). Certain paladin builds can neglect Dex to an extent and their class mechanics (and the armor mechanics) practically encourage going for a ~10-12 Dex build so their Str/Con/Cha can be higher. About the only stat they can dump is Int, so many do because they gain little from it and suffer significantly for not pumping their other stats. You wind up with a boatload of ballpark 8 Int/10 Dex paladins and 10 Int/8 Cha monks because seriously investing in those ability scores is a waste for their class (assuming you don't add a bunch of splat book materials on top).

Fighters can dump even more points and the mechanics strongly encourage making charmless buffoons. Unless you start adding in splat book content, high Str, high Con fighters will always rule the roost. Boosting Cha and Int is fun for roleplaying but terrible for everything else the core fighter does, mechanically.

Now, if strong, tough fighters are always supposed to be the objectively best fighters and smart, dextrous rogues are always supposed to be the objectively best rogues, why have ability scores? Ability scores and feats are the things that allow members of a class to stand apart as individuals. If the ability scores and classes don't work together in a way that promotes heterogeneity, players will either abandon non-standard character builds or only adopt them with the understanding that they are mechanically blunting their characters in the long run.

In the spirit of games that use arbitrarily codified classes and discrete levels, grant experience points for killing monsters that can be transmuted into improvements to opening locks, and represents successful attacks as gradual ablations of linearly-progressing hit point values, I don't think "Might" encompassing spell and weapon damage is too abstract at all. I think it's as abstract as many elements of A/D&D have always been. It's never been remotely close to a simulation and I think the systems often fall down when they try to be half-and-half.

And other Josh replies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMrUo9K9_-s&google_comment_id=z13kdfmjmxzdjzwnm22jix5pauiswbhsc

Edo Anic
4 days ago

Wouldn't detaching spell damage from damage with weapons and spell accuracy from accuracy with weapons (i.e. not being tied to the same two attributes) help accomplish this type of diversity?

Joshua Sawyer
4 days ago

Not in practice, no. While some classes (in D&D and PoE) have diverse weapon use/damage types, others are largely homogeneous. Giving more-or-less class-neutral bonuses to a subset of attributes and giving class-specific bonuses to another subset of attributes (which may overlap with the first subset) has the effect of decreasing, not increasing, build diversity.

Edo Anic
4 days ago

+Joshua Sawyer Could you elaborate why you think this would decrease diversity (assuming all attributes are designed to be valid choices for every class)?

Joshua Sawyer
4 days ago

+Edo Anic Let's start with a blank slate on ability scores and initially assign them only bonuses we feel will apply equally to characters of any class. Weapon and spell accuracy and damage are not part of these bonuses. We've finished, and we look at the ability scores and feel like we could make a wide variety of beneficial builds across any array of stats.

Then we assign spell damage, spell accuracy, weapon damage, and weapon accuracy to different stats. This immediately changes the mechanical value of each of those stats for every class based on how those classes attack and deal damage. In effect, those stats do double-duty for certain classes and wind up becoming the no-brainer tentpoles around which all builds are constructed. A player who invests in those stats is gaining the class-neutral benefit as well as the class-oriented benefit. A player who neglects those stats is doubly-penalizing themselves.

It turns what could have been a viable choice into a trap choice/non-choice. It may be interesting for role-playing but the player has to accept the deficiencies that come along with it. I think it's more interesting and enjoyable to make it an interesting role-playing choice and to create viable mechanical differentiation, regardless of what class the character is playing.

 

[Infinitron]

http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...d=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=5#post425626861

 

[Roguey]

I don't care for online stalking, unlike you. And you probably have it bookmarked.

I don't and I'm not going to. I've never made up a quote and attributed it to a developer. Claiming I'm making it all up is just absurd, sounds like you're being argumentative for the sake of it (next up on the moving goal posts: claiming Josh is making it up).

That is your unsubstantiated opinion.

A bunch of people on the Codex hated the content of ToB long before I joined the forums. Awful chosen one story, awful high level D&D combat. Magic equipment everywhere (including on nearly every enemy and guard) really gets the goat of all the sim-jerks too, because it goes against the lore.

Also you hate rtwp combat. What are you doing talking about liking a game that has it? It's weird enough that you keep following news and a thread about a game you won't like at all when there are a bunch of other currently-existing and upcoming turn-based games to look at instead.

Josh isn't designing goddlikes to appeal to anyone, except animu fags with the death godlike head. Might as well randomly select race.

A good number of Something Awful posters think the godlikes are great.

I doubt it, i can't envision a lazier implementation of godlikes. And doesn't Josh want to improve on DnD? Looks liek best he can manage is a shoddy balanced copy paste.

Can you tell who the aasimar and tiefling are in this picture, just going by character models?

He has improved on D&D by offering passive bonuses that aren't as boring as "can cast a race-specific spell once per day and has some minor resistances that are good at first and become insignificant later on."

Roguey, ultimately chaotic_heretic makes a good point: most of the godlike "choices" become only cosmetic.

Blind people feeling up an elephant. Choosing a godlike subtype isn't cosmetic. Choosing a base race has no mechanical effect that we're aware of but it surely has some meaning, otherwise they'd truly be "lazy" and decide the only godlike you can be is human.

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

Josh isn't designing goddlikes to appeal to anyone, except animu fags with the death godlike head. Might as well randomly select race.

A good number of Something Awful posters think the godlikes are great.

I don't see how that refutes his point.

 

[Roguey]

The burden of proof is on you to prove they're all anime fans.

 

[Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

The burden of proof is on you to prove they're all anime fans.

I don't have account on SA and their forum is apparently closed now.

 

[Turjan]

I am a backer of this game, but every time I read in this thread, I notice that I would probably hate the game prior to release if I kept up reading here. And this not because of game choices, but because of this dreadful design by committee, even if it hopefully only looks like it.

 

[Jasede]

The burden of proof is on you to prove they're all anime fans.

I don't have account on SA and their forum is apparently closed now.

It opens once in a while.

Do you wanna have my account? But you'd have to pay to get rid of the furry porn avatar.

 

[coffeetable]

good parts of SA
- yospos
- ask/tell

bad parts of SA
- everything else
- especially games

 

[Jasede]

Let's Play has brought us a lot of good things!

 

[Roguey]

I am a backer of this game, but every time I read in this thread, I notice that I would probably hate the game prior to release if I kept up reading here. And this not because of game choices, but because of this dreadful design by committee, even if it hopefully only looks like it.

What looks design-by-committee about it? A lot of people get mad at Josh because he goes with what's best for gameplay than what they want.

 

[Infinitron]

Probably by "design by committee" what he really means is "development details aren't completely hidden by publishers until two months before release".

 

[Dokkalfar]

Who is the composer of this game? That teaser was painfully bad.

 

[Hormalakh]

Roguey, ultimately chaotic_heretic makes a good point: most of the godlike "choices" become only cosmetic.

Blind people feeling up an elephant. Choosing a godlike subtype isn't cosmetic. Choosing a base race has no mechanical effect that we're aware of but it surely has some meaning, otherwise they'd truly be "lazy" and decide the only godlike you can be is human.

choosing a base race gives you certain stat boosts (humans get +2 resolve/str, godlikes all get +2dex/res) as well as racial bonuses (fighting spirit, death's usher). furthermore, there are racial reputation modifiers as mentioned before.

as for race supertypes (huamn/orlan/dwarf) of godlikes, nothing has been said about whether the conversation nodes will get doubly effected. but otherwise no, no mechanical information is known about that.

in any case, there are at least 30 combinations of stat modifiers (6 choices, pick 2 and +2 them) so there should be at least 30 (more if you change the +2/+2 to +1/+3, etc) different subtypes of stat modifiers (humans all get +2str/+2res), dwarf, orlan, elf, aumaua give a total of 5 of these 30 combinations. the other 25 can be used for the other godlikes (i really doubt they'll have 25 more godlikes).

as for the head slot being the only thing locked out, it doesn't really make much sense: every godlike that is "touched" is always touched in the head? it only affects their head? It would be more realistic (and allow for more player choice) for different aspects of the body to present variations on godlikes, not just the head.

jsut because it's debatably "more complex than D&D" doesn't mean Josh should stop a little short at mediocre designs.

 

[Turjan]

What looks design-by-committee about it? A lot of people get mad at Josh because he goes with what's best for gameplay than what they want.

Oh, weren't there polls about game mechanics, and don't people submit stuff for the game? Of course, there's a chance I mix this up with one of the other Kickstarters.

 

[Turjan]

Probably by "design by committee" what he really means is "development details aren't completely hidden by publishers until two months before release".

That's certainly not what I mean. Not sure how you can read that from my post, anyway.

 

[Arkeus]

as for the head slot being the only thing locked out, it doesn't really make much sense: every godlike that is "touched" is always touched in the head? it only affects their head? It would be more realistic (and allow for more player choice) for different aspects of the body to present variations on godlikes, not just the head.

It takes much less work to Balance helmets so that they are worth slightly more endgame than having a godlike than balancing every piece of gear against the special powers of the godlike that can't take this specific piece of gear.

Oh, weren't there polls about game mechanics, and don't people submit stuff for the game? Of course, there's a chance I mix this up with one of the other Kickstarters.

You are thinking of Inxile and Wastelands/Torment, not Pillars of Eternity.

 

[Roguey]

in any case, there are at least 30 combinations of stat modifiers (6 choices, pick 2 and +2 them) so there should be at least 30 (more if you change the +2/+2 to +1/+3, etc) different subtypes of stat modifiers (humans all get +2str/+2res), dwarf, orlan, elf, aumaua give a total of 5 of these 30 combinations. the other 25 can be used for the other godlikes (i really doubt they'll have 25 more godlikes).

Your math is off.

Josh has good reasons for why all godlike get dex/res. Someone can always ask him for clarification, I don't feel comfortable making guesses since I can think of a variety.

as for the head slot being the only thing locked out, it doesn't really make much sense: every godlike that is "touched" is always touched in the head? it only affects their head?

Godlike manifest their divine heritage in a variety of ways: wings, horns, strange birthmarks, talons, odd eyes

It would be more realistic (and allow for more player choice) for different aspects of the body to present variations on godlikes, not just the head.

You're talking about realism when it comes to something that isn't defined by reality.

Gods also look like this http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0070/pe-concept-gods.jpg

 

[Turjan]

You are thinking of Inxile and Wastelands/Torment, not Pillars of Eternity.

Ah, that may well be.

 

[Roguey]

The only poll Obsidian made was whether or not people wanted additional stretch goals for more wilderness areas and companions, and they decided not to even though the poll was overwhelmingly in their favor. The opposite of design by committee.

 

[Infinitron]

The only poll Obsidian made was whether or not people wanted additional stretch goals for more wilderness areas and companions, and they decided not to even though the poll was overwhelmingly in their favor. The opposite of design by committee.

Don't forget that durability and the crafting skill got "committee-designed" out of existence.

 

[Hormalakh]

as for the head slot being the only thing locked out, it doesn't really make much sense: every godlike that is "touched" is always touched in the head? it only affects their head? It would be more realistic (and allow for more player choice) for different aspects of the body to present variations on godlikes, not just the head.

It takes much less work to Balance helmets so that they are worth slightly more endgame than having a godlike than balancing every piece of gear against the special powers of the godlike that can't take this specific piece of gear.

each slot (head, neck, hand, body, waist, rings, feet) should have items that are appropriately balanced within their category from early game to late game items. All Sawyer would do is to take that item slot and give a mid-level bonus respective to that item slot and lock it out. It plays like a "you benefit now, but lose out on improving later" mechanic - a tactical and strategic choice. And it's not like there aren't other characters who couldn't use those impressive items instead. Obviously they don't need to do all the different slots but even 3 types (head, hand, feet) would be a lot better than more interesting (graphically as well as mechanically).

 

[Hormalakh]

feedback is not design by committee. durability had an overwhelming negative response and it even seemed from the way things were worded that some of the development team wasn't happy with it either, so it made sense to take it out. nobody "designed" a replacement.

 

[DeepOcean]

After 1000 pages of saying that "balance ruins RPGs", people are now complaining that one of Eternity's races is imbalanced.

No, people are complaining that Josh's ideas on balance sometimes mean: "Who is better? An apple or a orange?Screw that, too much work, let's turn all the apples into oranges and everything will be alright." Common, Infinitron, all God likes having the same stats bonus is so lame that Roguey had to resort to BS in trying to defend Josh on this one.