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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
A bunch of people on the Codex hated the content of ToB long before I joined the forums.
All DnD is trash according to you.

I'm one of those people who really love BG2, I really do. Nevertheless, I consider ToB to be merely mediocre. At high levels D&D falls apart (at least before D&D4, where it got just balanced but boring). To give the designers credit, ToB is actually much, much better than high level D&D. It still isn't very good.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,507
Location
The border of the imaginary
A bunch of people on the Codex hated the content of ToB long before I joined the forums.
All DnD is trash according to you.

I'm one of those people who really love BG2, I really do. Nevertheless, I consider ToB to be merely mediocre. At high levels D&D falls apart (at least before D&D4, where it got just balanced but boring). To give the designers credit, ToB is actually much, much better than high level D&D. It still isn't very good.
I think all of BG2 is a cliched overrated piece of shit. But I was giving an example of the interesting itemization inspite of the high levels of trash DnD.

Game 1:

Race A has three unique skills, and gets bonuses in 3 different situations. They also can use some unique weapons and can't use some others. They are barred from using X, Y and Z.
Race B has three other unique skills, has other situational bonuses, other unique weapons, and can't use a certain combat option and have to rely on something else; but they get to use the unique Q ability.

Race A and B play vastly differently, but one of the two is quite a lot better in most situations; but both are fun, and the challenge level is different in different situations, even though they're not balanced.


Game 2:

Race A has +2 to stat alpha and -2 to stat beta
Race B has +2 to stat gamma and -2 to stat delta

They are both exactly as powerful, just with slightly different things they excel at. That's your Josh Sawyer balance. :|

In this case, people are complaining about Game 1 (Godlikes can't use helmets) and that there's not enough of Game 2 (not enough Godlike subtype stat differences).

I know, the jew is ignoring me. But someone tell him I am not complaining about lack of Helms, i am complaining about the lack of variety of locked slots. Maybe horns/hooves/claws etc.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
That's character input, not player input.

Perfect since it's an RPG.
Also, typically "playing better" in an RPG means having a good character. Therefore, you do well in the game, such as losing less HP or getting less broken weapons.

Which is one reason not all choices should be equal in the first place, and so on but whatever.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,585
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Motherfuckerville
Hint: Its shit because is RTwP. :smug:

Nah. RTwP actually mitigated one of the biggest flaws of turn-based D&D in cRPGs (initiative rolls determining order of actions) while sacrificing comparatively little of value (positioning...which 90% of the Monster Manual laughs at).



As for the Godlike race...sounds decent enough. They have stat bonuses, equipment restrictions, and (in theory) will have abilities designed to be relevant at all levels of gameplay. Sounds like a good implement of "race" in a cRPG.

However, I'm beginning to be a bit disturbed by seeing yet another highly-conditional, "win-more" ability attached to the Death Godlike, just like the Ranger and the Rogue were stuffed full of them. Not only is it incredibly boring design, but I'm beginning to think combat in Eternity will be very "swingy", but without the flair of D&D's stupidly powerful broken stuff that makes the system fun to muck around in.

Wouldn't mind seeing Sawyer and the Balancepersons prove me wrong or assuage my fears in later, class-focused updates...but I'm not liking the trend I'm seeing. Let's hope it's just an artifact of limited presentation.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
37,007
Yes you have. At least once. Right before the post where Infinitron mentions, you are a few ignores less of hiver, keep it up. I just recall that much.
Never.

All DnD is trash according to you. And you use it as a basis for your comparisons all the time. In this same post infact.
Awfully black and white thinking here. There are degrees of how bad or good something can be.

Really? You should stop following everything where Josh isn't involved.
I've enjoyed games Josh hasn't been a part of at all, so the comparison doesn't work. For you, rtwp is a non-negotiable negative. Lack of Josh isn't a non-negotiable negative for me.

I am sorry, but I don't take into account opinions of retarded goons who use a paywall forum voluntarily. Do you have any points to make except saying "so and so" said that, so it is like that.
[goal post moving intensifies]

Mechanically, not Graphically. Oh btw, Aasimar and Tiefling are plenty different mechanically http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm . Non Cosmetic Choices. Deathlieks are Cosmetic Choices.
They get an exclusive passive, so I'd say they're not.

The rest of your post is pretty much nothing but "One passive, one passive, one passive ;_;"

Except

It is about verisimilitude and in-game consistency.
How is the implementation of godlikes not consistent with Obsidian's lore? They're the ones making the lore. The rules can work however they want them to. "Some godlike have [these features] but not the ones you can play as. Deal with it."
 
Joined
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Messages
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Yes you have. At least once. Right before the post where Infinitron mentions, you are a few ignores less of hiver, keep it up. I just recall that much.
Never.
Yes. At least Once. I am too lazy to find the exact post. however Infinitron replied to that post something along the lines of (paraphrasing here) "Nice going Roguey. A few ignores behind hiver"

Awfully black and white thinking here. There are degrees of how bad or good something can be.
That is rich coming from you.:roll: Anyways, P:E will be superior to BG2+ToB acc. to you, itemization variety too.

I've enjoyed games Josh hasn't been a part of at all, so the comparison doesn't work.
You sure don't act so. Feel free to start a new topic "cRPGs I have enjoyed where Josh isn't involved", cause it will be derailing here.

For you, rtwp is a non-negotiable negative.
Not really, I still played BG2, and enjoyed it. Its just that I see RTwP as a tacked on flaw. Strawmans aside, original issue was how lazy and boring the godlikes where mechanically, wasn't arguing P:E should be TB.

Lack of Josh isn't a non-negotiable negative for me.
Again, you don't act so. And refer to previous reply to how you enjoy non-josh games.

[goal post moving intensifies]
Strawmans, to your strawman.

They get an exclusive passive, so I'd say they're not.
Different varieties have different stat bonuses? Except that 1 passive, godlike variants are cosmetic, as is base race choice if selecting godlikes.

The rest of your post is pretty much nothing but "One passive, one passive, one passive ;_;"
Like most of your posts are Josh-fellattion, strawmans and redirects.

How is the implementation of godlikes not consistent with Obsidian's lore? They're the ones making the lore. The rules can work however they want them to.
Sure like how Dragon age will treat the characters you killed.
In game lore explanation why death touched has same two stat bonus as birdy touched or nature touched?

"Some godlike have [these features] but not the ones you can play as. Deal with it."
Difference between one choice of godlike manifestation for Players (head) vs some (head, hoof, claws at least). I am not asking for ALL the variants. Like I said, laziness and ineptitude.
 
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Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,507
Location
The border of the imaginary
Nah. RTwP actually mitigated one of the biggest flaws of turn-based D&D in cRPGs (initiative rolls determining order of actions) while sacrificing comparatively little of value (positioning...which 90% of the Monster Manual laughs at).
Perfect DnD cRPG for me would be BG2 (with some improvements in writing) in ToEE combat engine (with better encounter design) and less trash mobs, slaughtering whom feels p. cathartic in RTwP. In good tactical encounters, pausing for micromanaging feels very irritating to me in RTwP.


As for the Godlike race...sounds decent enough. They have stat bonuses, equipment restrictions, and (in theory) will have abilities designed to be relevant at all levels of gameplay. Sounds like a good implement of "race" in a cRPG.

However, I'm beginning to be a bit disturbed by seeing yet another highly-conditional, "win-more" ability attached to the Death Godlike, just like the Ranger and the Rogue were stuffed full of them. Not only is it incredibly boring design, but I'm beginning to think combat in Eternity will be very "swingy", but without the flair of D&D's stupidly powerful broken stuff that makes the system fun to muck around in.

Wouldn't mind seeing Sawyer and the Balancepersons prove me wrong or assuage my fears in later, class-focused updates...but I'm not liking the trend I'm seeing. Let's hope it's just an artifact of limited presentation.
My argument was lack of variety inbetween godlikes except that "win-more" passive in each, and irrelevance of base race choice in godlikes.
I think you should follow http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65144-godlike-mechanics-and-starting-attributes/ where there is higher chance of josh to reply.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
37,007
Yes. At least Once. I am too lazy to find the exact post. however Infinitron replied to that post something along the lines of (paraphrasing here) "Nice going Roguey. A few ignores behind hiver"
Found it
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...with-old-man-davis.83113/page-22#post-2798124

Where are the quotes I made up? Everything there's legitimate.

That is rich coming from you.:roll:

I don't see how. I've never said anything remotely like "all RPGs are equally bad." I just said they were all trash.

Strawmans, to your strawman.
This doesn't even make sense.

Sure like how Dragon age will treat the characters you killed.
I'm perfectly fine with that decision in regards to Leliana because the visual representation of combat is an abstraction.

In game lore explanation why death touched has same two stat bonus as birdy touched or nature touched?
A divine spark, regardless of its source, creates a being of greater resolve and dexterity?


Difference between one choice of godlike manifestation for Players (head) vs some (head, hoof, claws at least).
Hooves were never presented as an option. Some godlikes could have talons, we don't know. They're not going to prevent the wearing of gloves if they exist though.

I am not asking for ALL the variants. Like I said, laziness and ineptitude.
[armchair designing and producing intensifies]
Reminds me of a thing Josh said once.

Josh said:
I guess there are really two things to examine in the review. The first are the implications of laziness and/or incompetence. Those implications are irrelevant; Fallout: New Vegas is what's being reviewed, not Obsidian. Additionally, I and the other people on the team know what level of effort we put into the game. People not involved with the development of the game, whether reviewers or endusers, do not.
 
Joined
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Messages
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The border of the imaginary
Found it
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...with-old-man-davis.83113/page-22#post-2798124

Where are the quotes I made up? Everything there's legitimate.
And you couldn't quote when asked to? :smug:

I don't see how. I've never said anything remotely like "all RPGs are equally bad." I just said they were all trash.
Same argument here, except with RTwP.

This doesn't even make sense.
Like your post.

I'm perfectly fine with that decision in regards to Leliana because the visual representation of combat is an abstraction.
I know. You seem to be perfectly fine with laziness, ineptitude.

A divine spark, regardless of its source, creates a being of greater resolve and dexterity?
:lol:
But, Other things equal, a human godlike is of equal resolve as other humans. And a human godlike has lesser might compared to other humans. Simple Laziness evident in design.


Hooves were never presented as an option.
Yet. They could modify the godlikes they haven't released.

Some godlikes could have talons, we don't know. They're not going to prevent the wearing of gloves if they exist though.
Easily modified. instead of 4 digits and an opposable thumb with itsy bitsy claws, Three thick digits and opposable thumb ending with large talons, or some variation thereof so that gloves become unusable.

[armchair designing and producing intensifies]
Strawman. Critic and Cook analogy.

Reminds me of a thing Josh said once.

Josh said:
I guess there are really two things to examine in the review. The first are the implications of laziness and/or incompetence. Those implications are irrelevant; Fallout: New Vegas is what's being reviewed, not Obsidian. Additionally, I and the other people on the team know what level of effort we put into the game. People not involved with the development of the game, whether reviewers or endusers, do not.
Strawman. F:NV isn't P:E. Their funding, development and feedback models are entirely dfferent. If Godlikes are modified, you can thank me later for one less shitty aspect of P:E. :smug:
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
A bunch of people on the Codex hated the content of ToB long before I joined the forums.
All DnD is trash according to you.

I'm one of those people who really love BG2, I really do. Nevertheless, I consider ToB to be merely mediocre. At high levels D&D falls apart (at least before D&D4, where it got just balanced but boring). To give the designers credit, ToB is actually much, much better than high level D&D. It still isn't very good.
I think all of BG2 is a cliched overrated piece of shit. But I was giving an example of the interesting itemization inspite of the high levels of trash DnD.

Game 1:

Race A has three unique skills, and gets bonuses in 3 different situations. They also can use some unique weapons and can't use some others. They are barred from using X, Y and Z.
Race B has three other unique skills, has other situational bonuses, other unique weapons, and can't use a certain combat option and have to rely on something else; but they get to use the unique Q ability.

Race A and B play vastly differently, but one of the two is quite a lot better in most situations; but both are fun, and the challenge level is different in different situations, even though they're not balanced.


Game 2:

Race A has +2 to stat alpha and -2 to stat beta
Race B has +2 to stat gamma and -2 to stat delta

They are both exactly as powerful, just with slightly different things they excel at. That's your Josh Sawyer balance. :|

In this case, people are complaining about Game 1 (Godlikes can't use helmets) and that there's not enough of Game 2 (not enough Godlike subtype stat differences).

I know, the jew is ignoring me. But someone tell him I am not complaining about lack of Helms, i am complaining about the lack of variety of locked slots. Maybe horns/hooves/claws etc.

I agree with your take on BG2 (and the other Infinity Engine games, with the exception of Planescape Torment). I would have brofisted your post were it not for the racism at the end. A shame.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,507
Location
The border of the imaginary
[derail]
Religion is not Race, sir.
Did I call him white trash? Did I call him nigger? Did I call him Spic? Those would be racist slurs. Whereas "Caucasian", "of African origin", "of Hispanic origin" are simply racial components of a person's Identity.

And "filthy corporate Jewmaster" is a degratory religious slur.

Simply "Jew" is the religious component of his identity, which he should be proud of, after all it gives testament to how his ancestors survived the mudslimes :salute: . [/derail]

Matt7895 Since I already lost your brofist, let em elaborate about BG2:
Ii won't say ALL of BG2 is cliched trash. I enioyed in the sense of :pete: , even if some parts were p. good (lots of different areas to explore, plenty of content, multiclassing/dual classing and all those kits, chances to do evil shit etc) But yeah some elements can be downright annoying, like some of the NPCs (minsk, winged elf, )the romances (which thankfully weren't the focus. Also why can't I romance PC's Bhaalspawn half sis :outrage: The choices are a wdow, a slut, and a sheltered naive child, who will be a sex doll in the PC's abusive "relationship". :troll: ). The tactically interesting Encounters were kind of a double edged sword. they were cool, and provided a change of pace from the cathartic trash mobs...but micromanaging 6 party members in RTwP where a couple of missed rounds = rape, was irritating. But definitely overrated and cliched.

But both the IWDs, are tedious for me... never managed to complete even a single of them.
 
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Snozgobler

Educated
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
97
A divine spark, regardless of its source, creates a being of greater resolve and dexterity?
:lol:
But, Other things equal, a human godlike is of equal resolve as other humans. And a human godlike has lesser might compared to other humans. Simple Laziness evident in design.

Personally I'd prefer it if the base race had an affect on the character in addition to the Godlike qualities, however, the above could easily be explained by saying that the traits/attributes of a Godlike override the inherent attributes of the race because they are closer to the Gods and as a result can be considered only partially/no longer human/elf etc.

In an ideal world I'd lean towards having more variety, perhaps if dual/multiclassing were a feature of P:E (I know it's not), having a small number of racial levels for each race wherein a Godlike's levels would have "mutations" as a part of them and you received different mutations either randomly, based on the action you'd taken through the game, or of your choice.

However, at the end of the day I look at it like this, the race a Godlike was born into is not important, they are Godlike. Their parentage has no bearing on where fate takes them because they have been touched by the Gods.
 
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Dokkalfar

Drog-kun~
Village Idiot
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
92
I can't believe this game doesn't have a proper composer. This Justin Bell guy has never composed for a video game or film, he's a sound designer. Step it up Obsidian.
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
Music is one department where I think developers aren't crowdsourcing enough. Especially for a game like this, where you can have tracks covering one zone, or combat in one zone. While I don't think Justin Bell is incompetent or anything (I rather liked the early snippets of music), I think it would be cool if he could manage the music but not necessarily write it all himself, just for the sake of having a crowd experiment, with a lot of variety.
 

Hormalakh

Magister
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
1,503
i believe they are crowd-sourcing the music wherever possible. as for soule or mark morgan, i believe it had to do with the cost that would be prohibitive. most of the money is going to developing the game and they are trying to save money where they can.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I'm pretty sure Obsidian isn't crowd sourcing anything.

InXile is crowd-sourcing some rocks and beta testing.
 

imweasel

Guest
I can't believe this game doesn't have a proper composer. This Justin Bell guy has never composed for a video game or film, he's a sound designer. Step it up Obsidian.
Justin Bell does also have a degree in composition, at least according to the thread that Hormalakh posted on the last page.

I do hope the music is good. Many developers seem to underestimate the importance of good music in a game.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
100,244
Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I do hope the music is good. Many developers seem to underestimate the importance of good music in a game.

They do? I've always found that music is the one area where game developers tend to do a more or less consistently decent job, even in AAA land.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
I can't believe this game doesn't have a proper composer. This Justin Bell guy has never composed for a video game or film, he's a sound designer. Step it up Obsidian.
Justin Bell does also have a degree in composition, at least according to the thread that Hormalakh posted on the last page.

I do hope the music is good. Many developers seem to underestimate the importance of good music in a game.

He's also done plenty of work in television and movies.
 

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