Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

After 1000 pages of saying that "balance ruins RPGs", people are now complaining that one of Eternity's races is imbalanced.

No, people are complaining that Josh's ideas on balance sometimes mean: "Who is better? An apple or a orange?Screw that, too much work, let's turn all the apples into oranges and everything will be alright." Common, Infinitron, all God likes having the same stats bonus is so lame that Roguey had to resort to BS in trying to defend Josh on this one.

It's not really lame. Forget the lore bullshit. Godlikes are a separate race in the game, along with humans, elves, dwarves, orlans and amaua. The whole "godlike of a particular race" thing is a bonus. Even if it's just for flavor, like selecting a diety in NWN, there's little to complain about.

I'm not sure it's going to be just flavor though.

 

[Rake]

After 1000 pages of saying that "balance ruins RPGs", people are now complaining that one of Eternity's races is imbalanced.

No, people are complaining that Josh's ideas on balance sometimes mean: "Who is better? An apple or a orange?Screw that, too much work, let's turn all the apples into oranges and everything will be alright." Common, Infinitron, all God likes having the same stats bonus is so lame that Roguey had to resort to BS in trying to defend Josh on this one.

It depends on how you think it from a game standpoint. If you consider Godlikes a race as it was promished on kickstarter, having all of them receive the same bonus is reasonable. If you consider Godlikes not as a race but as seperate "subraces" within their primary race (like aasimar were to humans for example), then you are right.
The thing is Obsidian never promished that, even though i agree it would be cooler.

EDIT: Damn Jew... he is fast

 

[Hormalakh]

in any case, there are at least 30 combinations of stat modifiers (6 choices, pick 2 and +2 them) so there should be at least 30 (more if you change the +2/+2 to +1/+3, etc) different subtypes of stat modifiers (humans all get +2str/+2res), dwarf, orlan, elf, aumaua give a total of 5 of these 30 combinations. the other 25 can be used for the other godlikes (i really doubt they'll have 25 more godlikes).

Your math is off.

Forgot to divide by 2. 15 is still a lot of permutations. You're telling me we're going to have 10 godlikes? If it's less than 10, they can make it work.

Josh has good reasons for why all godlike get dex/res. Someone can always ask him for clarification, I don't feel comfortable making guesses since I can think of a variety.

i'm making a post on obsidian, we'll see if he responds

as for the head slot being the only thing locked out, it doesn't really make much sense: every godlike that is "touched" is always touched in the head? it only affects their head?

Godlike manifest their divine heritage in a variety of ways: wings, horns, strange birthmarks, talons, odd eyes

great. thanks for the quote. So why the hell is every godlike having their headslot locked out thus far? Even the hylean Palle-vagina has head feathers instead of wings. So basically, the lore doesn't match the mechanics. Thanks for that.

It would be more realistic (and allow for more player choice) for different aspects of the body to present variations on godlikes, not just the head.

You're talking about realism when it comes to something that isn't defined by reality.

Gods also look like this http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/media/updates/0070/pe-concept-gods.jpg

yeah, yeah the simulationist/gamist argument works when we're trying to bring real-world concepts into the game. the godlike concept is part of the lore and the quote you sent above even talks about godlikes having wings, scars, birthmarks. how come we only get to play the head-freaks?

 

[Athelas]

Maybe one of the two bonus attributes should be fixed (always a bonus for Resolve), while the other depends on the base race (i.e. dexterity for orlan godlikes, might for human godlikes, etc.).

 

[Jasede]

Game 1:

Race A has three unique skills, and gets bonuses in 3 different situations. They also can use some unique weapons and can't use some others. They are barred from using X, Y and Z.
Race B has three other unique skills, has other situational bonuses, other unique weapons, and can't use a certain combat option and have to rely on something else; but they get to use the unique Q ability.

Race A and B play vastly differently, but one of the two is quite a lot better in most situations; but both are fun, and the challenge level is different in different situations, even though they're not balanced.


Game 2:

Race A has +2 to stat alpha and -2 to stat beta
Race B has +2 to stat gamma and -2 to stat delta

They are both exactly as powerful, just with slightly different things they excel at. That's your Josh Sawyer balance.

 

[Infinitron]

Game 1:

Race A has three unique skills, and gets bonuses in 3 different situations. They also can use some unique weapons and can't use some others. They are barred from using X, Y and Z.
Race B has three other unique skills, has other situational bonuses, other unique weapons, and can't use a certain combat option and have to rely on something else; but they get to use the unique Q ability.

Race A and B play vastly differently, but one of the two is quite a lot better in most situations; but both are fun, and the challenge level is different in different situations, even though they're not balanced.


Game 2:

Race A has +2 to stat alpha and -2 to stat beta
Race B has +2 to stat gamma and -2 to stat delta

They are both exactly as powerful, just with slightly different things they excel at. That's your Josh Sawyer balance.

In this case, people are complaining about Game 1 (Godlikes can't use helmets) and that there's not enough of Game 2 (not enough Godlike subtype stat differences).

 

[Jasede]

That's perverse.
Be happy there's some difference; you fucks.

Huff, huff. Project Vanilla.

 

[Hormalakh]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65144-godlike-mechanics-and-starting-attributes/

 

[Infinitron]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65144-godlike-mechanics-and-starting-attributes/

roguey i mentioned your name, thanking you for giving credence to my argument.

You should have just stated your case without mentioning this thread. Pointing people at the Codex just muddies the waters.

 

[Hormalakh]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65144-godlike-mechanics-and-starting-attributes/

roguey i mentioned your name, thanking you for giving credence to my argument.

You should have just stated your case without mentioning this thread. Pointing people at the Codex just muddies the waters of the conversation.

very well. i've edited the thread.

 

[Jasede]

You don't talk about the Codex.

 

[Hormalakh]

You don't talk about the Codex.

truly a cesspool for the uninitiated.

 

[Hormalakh]

Who is the composer of this game? That teaser was painfully bad.

justin sweet. it's not so bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWhyOGU3vDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp4P62Zpnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNu-Yny9DZI

 

[2house2fly]

Don't forget that durability and the crafting skill got "committee-designed" out of existence.

I didn't really like durability apparently being designed as a money sink but the blubbering about that was hilarious. I couldn't help but imagine how people would react if hit points had been unveiled the same way. "you mean I have to keep taking potions and casting special spells or my character will be unable to complete the game?!?!?!!!?? Abloo bla bloo"

 

[tuluse]

I didn't really like durability apparently being designed as a money sink but the blubbering about that was hilarious. I couldn't help but imagine how people would react if hit points had been unveiled the same way. "you mean I have to keep taking potions and casting special spells or my character will be unable to complete the game?!?!?!!!?? Abloo bla bloo"

There was no player input into durability. With HP, the better you play, the fewer you lose.

 

[Abelian]

Don't forget that durability and the crafting skill got "committee-designed" out of existence.

I didn't really like durability apparently being designed as a money sink but the blubbering about that was hilarious. I couldn't help but imagine how people would react if hit points had been unveiled the same way. "you mean I have to keep taking potions and casting special spells or my character will be unable to complete the game?!?!?!!!?? Abloo bla bloo"

The difference is that the player can bring potions and cast spells to recharge HP. For durability, you usually need to visit a smith. In MMX, for example, damaged weapons deal less damage so it's in the player's interest to fix them as soon as possible.

 

[FeelTheRads]

There was no player input into durability.

Maybe there should be. The better the character is at fighting the less damage to items.

 

[tuluse]

Maybe there should be. The better the character is at fighting the less damage to items.

That's character input, not player input.

Plus, Josh's idea had that. I think it was the mechanics skill.

 

[Turjan]

Who is the composer of this game? That teaser was painfully bad.

justin sweet. it's not so bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWhyOGU3vDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp4P62Zpnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNu-Yny9DZI

Especially the second one is an example for a composer who doesn't have the slightest idea where his "melody" is supposed to go.

 

[Hormalakh]

Haha, I agree with you Turjan. I got a little confused while listening to that one too. I think he was just coming up with a few things for the kickstarter to give a feel of what the music would sound like. in any case, he's who they've picked, for better or for worse.

BTW, it's Justin Bell, not Sweet. Whoops.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60901-update-14-the-music-of-project-eternity/

there are a few other threads on the obsidian website, but i can't find them right now.

 

[Infinitron]

Maybe there should be. The better the character is at fighting the less damage to items.

That's character input, not player input.

Plus, Josh's idea had that. I think it was the mechanics skill.

Crafting skill. I mentioned it in my post that that brought this topic up again...

 

[Abelian]

Who is the composer of this game? That teaser was painfully bad.

justin sweet. it's not so bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWhyOGU3vDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xsp4P62Zpnc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNu-Yny9DZI

Especially the second one is an example for a composer who doesn't have the slightest idea where his "melody" is supposed to go.

I agree that the second one goes nowhere. After I heard it, I couldn't remember a single theme. The other two weren't much better either.

I also don't like the tendency to make everything sound like a orchestral movie soundtrack. Too much strings and brass, not enough flute, lute, bagpipes, or shwam.

I would like something with more memorable themes, like this or this or this or this or this. I'm not saying that everything should be EPIC, just more engaging for the listeners, preferably something that get stuck in their head.

Edit: the first one was okay, except for the glockenspiel.

 

[Hormalakh]

Found the thread. Justin Bell goes through some of his thoughts. We haven't really heard from him since the beginning of the dev, but that's what we've got. He was interested in using flutes, lutes, and other interesting instruments. he talks about it here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60342-project-eternity-composer-in-house-or-external/

some of the more memorable quotes:

String quartet is amazing, and it's not something a lot of composers are asked to do nowadays. But yeah, I'm a huge fan of that intimate chamber music sound. You know, anything is really possible as long as:

a. It fits the over all musical style of the game

b. It suites the specific narrative moment of the game

c. Doesn't sound jarringly out of place.


I think for the right moment in the game, it can work great. Above all, the narrative drive's the music first and foremost. As long as music obey's the narrative, you can use pretty much any musical style. The trick is to keep things interesting, and this is one of those things that could shake things up a bit in a good way at the right moment.

They went all for the epic, grandiose fantasy stuff in BG2 and forgot all about the atmospheric music... though that might be because there wasn't much wilderness in the game anyways (or tiny/peasant towns anyways), everything had to be big.

You have to leave yourself a "vertical buffer" to ensure those moments have meaning and impact. So, to answer your question, there should definitely be moments of moody ambience when its appropriate, just as there should be big grandoise moments when it's called for. But ultimately, everything depends on the narrative...

Good observation here! I'm a big believer of having music ebb and flow, and more importantly, that it be interesting and emotionally engaging to listen to.

When music is all big all the time, you tend to get tired of listening to it after extended periods. That's what we in audio call "listener fatigue", and I'm pretty sensitive to that. The problem with listener fatigue is that when you reach the climax of musical intensity and you keep it there for stustained periods of time, where can you go next if the narrative calls for things to get kicked up another notch?

Mr. Bell, you have no idea how happy mentioning the IWD series serving as inspiration for the soundtrack makes me, even a decade after the games release I'm still regularly listening to the games music. My anticipation for PE has just increased by 50%!

Well, I'm glad! It's one of the soundtracks we've discussed, and it's definitely one we'll be looking at for inspiration.

I love the soundtrack for Morrowind. It's my number one favorite game score, of all time. Hugely influential on me as a composer...

 

[Turjan]

I agree that the second one goes nowhere. After I heard it, I couldn't remember a single theme.

Found the thread. Justin Bell goes through some of his thoughts.

Mr. Bell, you have no idea how happy mentioning the IWD series serving as inspiration for the soundtrack makes me, even a decade after the games release I'm still regularly listening to the games music.

The fun thing is that the start of this theme is obviously his take on the Kuldahar theme from IWD, just that it fails horribly.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

I don't and I'm not going to. I've never made up a quote and attributed it to a developer. Claiming I'm making it all up is just absurd, sounds like you're being argumentative for the sake of it (next up on the moving goal posts: claiming Josh is making it up).

Yes you have. At least once. Right before the post where Infinitron mentions, you are a few ignores less of hiver, keep it up. I just recall that much.

A bunch of people on the Codex hated the content of ToB long before I joined the forums. Awful chosen one story, awful high level D&D combat. Magic equipment everywhere (including on nearly every enemy and guard) really gets the goat of all the sim-jerks too, because it goes against the lore.

All DnD is trash according to you. And you use it as a basis for your comparisons all the time. In this same post infact.

Also you hate rtwp combat. What are you doing talking about liking a game that has it? It's weird enough that you keep following news and a thread about a game you won't like at all when there are a bunch of other currently-existing and upcoming turn-based games to look at instead.

Really? You should stop following everything where Josh isn't involved.

A good number of Something Awful posters think the godlikes are great.

I am sorry, but I don't take into account opinions of retarded goons who use a paywall forum voluntarily. Do you have any points to make except saying "so and so" said that, so it is like that.

Can you tell who the aasimar and tiefling are in this picture, just going by character models?

Mechanically, not Graphically. Oh btw, Aasimar and Tiefling are plenty different mechanically http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/planetouched.htm . Non Cosmetic Choices. Deathlieks are Cosmetic Choices.

He has improved on D&D by offering passive bonuses that aren't as boring as "can cast a race-specific spell once per day and has some minor resistances that are good at first and become insignificant later on."

No one has opportunity to play it. It is streamlining and shoehorning a single passive as the sole difference mechanically between godlikes. In your own example the difference between Aasimir and Tiefling the difference sin't just one passive. Like a shoddy copy paste.

Choosing a godlike subtype isn't cosmetic.

Keep repeating that. but it is cosmetic mechanically, except one passive bonus. Different godlikes do not get different stat bonuses.

Choosing a base race has no mechanical effect that we're aware of ...

I see you agree with me.

...but it surely has some meaning,

Between Godlikes, it boils down to one passive. And base race seems irrelevant entirely (aka cosmetic) if godliek si chosen.

otherwise they'd truly be "lazy" and decide the only godlike you can be is human.

That would have been an improvement, them limiting their scope and delivering on it. If Godlikes were limited to one base race, and each of them feel different, it would have meant much more choice, than the current non-choice which solely depends on 1 single passive.

Josh has good reasons for why all godlike get dex/res. Someone can always ask him for clarification, I don't feel comfortable making guesses since I can think of a variety.

yes, Laziness and Ineptitude.

You're talking about realism when it comes to something that isn't defined by reality.

It is about verisimilitude and in-game consistency.