Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Kane]

raw damage huh

 

[Roguey]

Why care if a orlan (godlike) defender is exactly the same mechanically like an elf (godlike) defender? Because I want the base race choices to be more than cosmetic? As it is, its very small...

Godlike properties trump their racial properties. If you want different stat bonuses, choose a different race.

Or as hiver elaborates

Which means that the only downside to playing with a Godlike, will be not wearing helmets... which means they are just a cosmetic race. Some passive bonus schmonus.
Which means there wont be any inherent different reaction modifiers from NPCs... which means there wont be any such differences in quests and C&C. Bar the usual ones depending on dialogue and other choices that any player would be able to make.

Which makes me wonder why there are these Godlike there at all... but i guess or hope there will be some lore explanation and background for it.

A cosmetic feature shoehorned into the game without much thought.

He's wrong.

Some people treat them with great reverence but others think they are gross and weird, so the reactions are kind of a wash, overall.

Multiple Good Helms can be swapped according to tactical considerations of an encounter.

I don't remember ever having to do this in any game.

Moreover, Josh is fine with switching weapons during any given encounter, but not switching armor.

The bonus effectively favours one role for the godlike, Rogue in case of Death,

Wrong. As pointed out in a Josh quote up above, all classes deal damage.

but the bonus doesn't seem good enough to sacrifice the versatility of hems( again assuming competent itemization ) AND the base race passive.

You say without knowing any of the numbers whatsoever.

And its silly that all godlikes of all races can't wear helms.

None of the godlike we've seen have the heads for them.

 

[Zed]

Races won't differ beside a passive racial bonus? No difference in base attributes?

 

[Roguey]

Races won't differ beside a passive racial bonus? No difference in base attributes?

They all get two bonuses. Godlike get dexterity and resolve, humans get might and resolve.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Godlike properties trump their racial properties. If you want different stat bonuses, choose a different race.

So base race is again cosmetic mechanically, if godlike is chosen.

He's wrong.

You are wrong.

I don't remember ever having to do this in any game.

BG2 swapping different inoun stones can help a lot in some encounters.

Moreover, Josh is fine with switching weapons during any given encounter, but not switching armor.

it is not body armor. it is headgear. Maybe a cloth cap. not armor.

Wrong. As pointed out in a Josh quote up above, all classes deal damage.

Some classes specialize in dealing burst damage. So Death godlike is favourable for classes that specialize in dealing damage.

You say without knowing any of the numbers whatsoever.

I say that assuming varied and interesting itemization. Whch is a goal

None of the godlike we've seen have the heads for them.

It is a sign of laziness for all godlikes to have the same designed weakness of non standard heads and moreover same two stat bonuses. Gimme godlikes with hooves/claws.
But that would imply putting actual effort in designing the godlikes with different bonuses and weaknesses.

 

[Akratus]

Races won't differ beside a passive racial bonus? No difference in base attributes?

They all get two bonuses. Godlike get dexterity and resolve, humans get might and resolve.

Because apparantly being like jesus makes you good at gymnastics.

 

[Snozgobler]

I understand why mechanically balance is needed, but from a lore point of view, not at all. Why should an average human be equal to an average elf, dwarf or godlike? Personally I disagree with the need to balance every little stat and make certain that racial bonuses exactly make up for the lack of a helm. For me, the point of a fantasy world is to be interesting and engaging, and while I can understand that it would be grossly unbalanced to choose between a human and a dragon, the differences between godlike and humans don't seem huge in the grand scheme of things.

If the game works well, then your choice of actions, abilities and tactics should matter more than if you can equip a helmet or not.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

But that is what Josh is doing. making choices unappealing. Godlikes seem p. mundane mechanically, because balance.

 

[Hormalakh]

But that is what Josh is doing. making choices unappealing. Godlikes seem p. mundane mechanically, because balance.

i don't know what you mean by mundane exactly. if you mean that they're not varied, that's not true. if you mean that they're equally viable, then i'm actually all for mundane mechanically. i don't want godlikes to be the go-to choice for every min-maxer. i hate that shit. keep them equally balanced so that the game is about the same difficulty (although playing differently) with the different races. how is this a problem?

 

[Akratus]

I understand why mechanically balance is needed, but from a lore point of view, not at all. Why should an average human be equal to an average elf, dwarf or godlike? Personally I disagree with the need to balance every little stat and make certain that racial bonuses exactly make up for the lack of a helm. For me, the point of a fantasy world is to be interesting and engaging, and while I can understand that it would be grossly unbalanced to choose between a human and a dragon, the differences between godlike and humans don't seem huge in the grand scheme of things.

If the game works well, then your choice of actions, abilities and tactics should matter more than if you can equip a helmet or not.

Race: Dwarf
Racial attributes:
-1 reach
+1 brewing

 

[Jasede]

I should stop following game development; the more I learn the less I look forward to a game.

I think Dark Souls 2 is the only exception.

 

[Lhynn]

I should stop following game development; the more I learn the less I look forward to a game.

I think Dark Souls 2 is the only exception.

but darksouls 2 had a p. shitty starting point with "we want our game to be more accesible" and "we like skyrim". Everything theyve said after that has been heaven compared to the dread that they caused with those words.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

But that is what Josh is doing. making choices unappealing. Godlikes seem p. mundane mechanically, because balance.

i don't know what you mean by mundane exactly. if you mean that they're not varied, that's not true.

All godlieks share same stat bonuses and same weakness of no helms. Gee. plenty of variety.

 

[Hormalakh]

All godlieks share same stat bonuses and same weakness of no helms. Gee. plenty of variety.

So what? Each race gets the same stat bonuses. Humans get bonus strength and resolve. Furthermore, the helm weakness is off-set by the varying passive racial benefit each godlike gets. Only death godlikes get the death's usher. Other godlikes will get other passive racial benefits.

Each type of godlike has its own passive racial benefit. Death godlike have an ability called Death's Usher that increases their damage against enemies with a low percentage of remaining Stamina.

None of the other games had dwarves/elves/orcs/humans getting multiple variations on racial bonuses and neither did D&D. By all accounts, the godlike getting a varying racial benefit based on the godlike is already more than any older game.

 

[Lhynn]

Didnt neverwinter 2 had sub races?
Plus neverwinter 1 features custom races/subraces/templates years ago.

 

[Abelian]

Icewind Dale 2, which Josh worked on as designer, also had subraces. Some of the races had a slower experience progression.

 

[Roguey]

So base race is again cosmetic mechanically, if godlike is chosen.

Five base races multiplied by at least three or more godlike subtypes = getting unwieldy fast.

You are wrong.

I provided a quote, you provided nothing but an empty statement, like something a child would say. Anyway here's another

Sometimes, the reaction they get is overwhelmingly positive. Many times, the reaction is overwhelmingly not.

BG2 swapping different inoun stones can help a lot in some encounters.

• Dusty Rose Ioun Stone: -1 AC bonus
• Pale Green Ioun Stone: +10% bonus HP, +1 THAC0 bonus
• Pearly White Ioun Stone: regenerate 2 HP every minute

None of those are absolute-must-haves or worth swapping around all the time.

I say that assuming varied and interesting itemization. Whch is a goal

Look at the list of ioun stones up above. There will never be a part where you'll think "Oh no I could win this battle if only my godlike PC could wear a helmet but instead I'm stuck forever."

It is a sign of laziness for all godlikes to have the same designed weakness of non standard heads and moreover same two stat bonuses.

They have an art budget and we've circled right back to my first reply. They could just as easily not had any kind of godlike at all if we're talking about "laziness."

 

[hiver]

All godlieks share same stat bonuses

I believe it was said that different kinds have different bonuses.

With different reactions from NPCs fortunately already included, it might turn out to be tolerable. Depending on those reactions and effect it has on the main quest and story.
It can turn out to be something only superficial but, should be better then that.

It should not be a problem to come up with good background story for these mutants, connected with the whole soul-reincarnation - soul magic thing and past events of these republics - that would provide and engaging, interesting lead to follow.

I certainly can.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

So what? Each race gets the same stat bonuses. Humans get bonus strength and resolve. Furthermore, the helm weakness is off-set by the varying passive racial benefit each godlike gets. Only death godlikes get the death's usher. Other godlikes will get other passive racial benefits.

Cannot into reading?
That is my point. ALL godlikes no matter what variant get the bonus to the SAME TWO STATS and the SAME UNEQUIPPABLE HEAD. There si no variation among godlikes except their passive and looks.

None of the other games had dwarves/elves/orcs/humans getting multiple variations on racial bonuses and neither did D&D. By all accounts, the godlike getting a varying racial benefit based on the godlike is already more than any older game.

No.
Subraces in NWN2 and in DnD 3.x

Five base races multiplied by at least three or more godlike subtypes = getting unwieldy fast.

Unwieldy for retards, yes.

I provided a quote, you provided nothing but an empty statement, like something a child would say. Anyway here's another

You didn't provide a source. You have on occasion, provided quotes out of your ass. (quoting one thing, and links to something else)

• Dusty Rose Ioun Stone: -1 AC bonus
• Pale Green Ioun Stone: +10% bonus HP, +1 THAC0 bonus
• Pearly White Ioun Stone: regenerate 2 HP every minute

You missed a few http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/armor/helmets.html Some of them have VERY nice bonuses.

None of those are absolute-must-haves or worth swapping around all the time.

Did I ever mention absolute must haves? P:E will never have an absolute msut have. Josh hates hard counters.

Look at the list of ioun stones up above.

Again, you missed a few. I meant BG2+ToB btw. http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/armor/helmets.htm

There will never be a part where you'll think "Oh no I could win this battle if only my godlike PC could wear a helmet but instead I'm stuck forever."

Again, Did I ever mention absolute must haves? I know Josh hates that, hard counters and all. I mentioned loss of flexibility, And according to you, P:E will have way better itemization than BG2. So a static bonus vs. flexibility of helms will be much less attractive. Alternative is shit itemization, or overpowered bonus. And josh hates to encourage degenerate behaviour in min-maxers with overpowered bonuses.

They have an art budget and we've circled right back to my first reply.

Yeah it shows, floating rocks and illogical arches. And they have different races already equippable helms.

Instead of designing say 6 godlike heads. Design a couple of godlike freaky heads. A Couple of hooves. Maybe one with claws. Just shows short-sighted planning and incompetent management of budget.

They could just as easily not had any kind of godlike at all if we're talking about "laziness."

Their pitch mentioned planetouched/godlikes among races. Obsidian isn't as incompetent as Double Fine...yet. They implemented it in the laziest way possible, to barely fulfill their commitment.

All godlieks share same stat bonuses

I believe it was said that different kinds have different bonuses.

Nope. All godlikes get Dexterity and Resolve as stat Bonus. That is the reason i am harping all godlikes have thesame stat bonus. As in not the number/magnitude of stat bonuses (balance and all...) but the same two stats are the bonus stat for all godlike variants. So someone touched by death domain has the same stat bonus as someone touched by fire domain. Doesn't mesh lore-wise.

it would have been better, if godlikes retained base race stat bonus, and godlike just gave the passive. A simple decision leading to much more variety.

With different reactions from NPCs fortunately already included, it might turn out to be tolerable. Depending on those reactions and effect it has on the main quest and story.
It can turn out to be something only superficial but, should be better then that.

yeah, the only places Obsidian has delivered is writing.

It should not be a problem to come up with good background story for these mutants, connected with the whole soul-reincarnation - soul magic thing and past events of these republics - that would provide and engaging, interesting lead to follow.
I certainly can.

True, but I am not very optimistic looking at the uninspiring lore till now. Maybe that is cause they want to avoid spoilers. but the setting is fantasy with the Soul strawman setup for everything.

 

[Hormalakh]

...

You make good points. Someone should bring this up on the Obsidian forums or Josh's tumblr. It seems very doable for the godlike to either:
1- have different stat modifiers for each godlike
2- just use the stat modifiers for the base race (human/orlan/elf/dwarf)

and as for the slot lock-outs, i don't see why Chaotic_heretic's idea is a bad one. Just make each of the different "versions" of the godlikes have a few variations on head, arm, feet and you get to choose which one you want to lock out. You can make the corresponding slot have modifiers for whatever you miss out on. A little bit more work, but then so is making a good game.

 

[Roguey]

You didn't provide a source. You have on occasion, provided quotes out of your ass. (quoting one thing, and links to something else)

Look them up yourself.

You missed a few http://mikesrpgcenter.com/bgate2/armor/helmets.html Some of them have VERY nice bonuses.

Throne of Bhaal is a garbage high level expansion-pack.

I mentioned loss of flexibility,

Uh huh. If you can't live with that, don't play godlike. Josh isn't designing all options to appeal to everyone.

Their pitch mentioned planetouched/godlikes. And they implemented it in the laziest way possible.

I'm pretty sure it could be much, much "lazier" and what you want is significantly more involved than what planetouched are in D&D.

 

[Hormalakh]

Roguey, ultimately chaotic_heretic makes a good point: most of the godlike "choices" become only cosmetic.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

Look them up yourself.

I don't care for online stalking, unlike you. And you probably have it bookmarked.

Throne of Bhaal is a garbage high level expansion-pack.

That is your unsubstantiated opinion.

Uh huh. If you can't live with that, don't play godlike. Josh isn't designing all options to appeal to everyone.

Josh isn't designing goddlikes to appeal to anyone, except animu fags with the death godlike head. Might as well randomly select race.

I'm pretty sure it could be much, much "lazier" and what you want is significantly more involved than what planetouched are in D&D.

I doubt it, i can't envision a lazier implementation of godlikes. And doesn't Josh want to improve on DnD? Looks liek best he can manage is a shoddy balanced copy paste.

You make good points. Someone should bring this up on the Obsidian forums or Josh's tumblr. It seems very doable for the godlike to either:
1- have different stat modifiers for each godlike
2- just use the stat modifiers for the base race (human/orlan/elf/dwarf)

and as for the slot lock-outs, i don't see why Chaotic_heretic's idea is a bad one. Just make each of the different "versions" of the godlikes have a few variations on head, arm, feet and you get to choose which one you want to lock out. You can make the corresponding slot have modifiers for whatever you miss out on. A little bit more work, but then so is making a good game.

This is what I have been suggesting Josh should have implemented, doesn't conflict with his design goals. But that would require competence and effort. Someone should do Josh's work and suggest this on Obsidian forums/Goon Central/wherever he likes to hang

 

[Murk]

Huh, I think that's about as close to "yep, I'm wrong" that Roguey gets. Well done CH.

 

[Infinitron]

After 1000 pages of saying that "balance ruins RPGs", people are now complaining that one of Eternity's races is imbalanced.