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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Roguey

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NWN2 fact that I've already mentioned except this time with more detail
Josh said:
when i came on in the middle of the project, the king of shadows was written as a force of evil without back story, described as "like sauron". i didn't think the analogy was accurate and i didn't think it made him a compelling antagonist in our plot, so we eventually had george ziets write his *~ lorez ~*.
:lol: "like sauron." That's our Ferret. Bioware to the core.

muh D&D

muh Infinity Engine

There's some convenience in being creativily bankrupt, everything bad can be justified as staying true to your mediocre inspirations
Josh said:
That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game. It's great that you view the experiences as more abstract than the nuts and bolts, but no, people clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different. And I know from experience that sort of attitude can poison a player's entire reception of the game.
 

Grunker

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The King of Shadows was one of the most forgettable villains I've ever seen in a video game. "Like Sauron" would have been a fucking improvement, lol.

Roguey said:
That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game. It's great that you view the experiences as more abstract than the nuts and bolts, but no, people clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different. And I know from experience that sort of attitude can poison a player's entire reception of the game.

Not that I'm defending the whiners but:

1) There's some butthurt there that he's on said IE-clone and not Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Roguey's Personal Dream RPG Experience.

2) You lie in the bed you've made. You chose a confrontationist and brutally honest approach to your communication which I appreciate instead of all the marketing bullshit, but it's understandable that this will piss off those who disagree with you.
 

Roguey

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The King of Shadows was one of the most forgettable villains I've ever seen in a video game. "Like Sauron" would have been a fucking improvement, lol.
Do you consider DA:O's archdemon to be a more interesting character than the KoS? I don't. I thought the idea of a guy who gave up his life/mind to become an eternal defender, only to become corrupted so he could keep on defending forever even after the civilization itself fell was pretty keen.
 

Grunker

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Roguey, there are two different things at work here: concept and execution. My claim will be that any concept can work if executed well enough (see: films like Looper). Neither the archdemon nor the King of Shadows are executed (i.e. written and presented) very well, in fact both are downright fucking boring. Yet as boring as the archdemon is, it STILL manages to beat KoS by virtue simply of having some form of fucking connection to the main character and your struggles. The connection between NWN2 protagonist and KoS comes very, very late and is extremely contrived. In short, there is zero reason to give any amount of fucks about the King of Shadows for the player.

Except of course for the "he will destroy the world"-schtick, which I believe is banal enough that I don't have to explain why that connection is ultimately shitty.
 

Rake

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I thought the idea of a guy who gave up his life/mind to become an eternal defender, only to become corrupted so he could keep on defending forever even after the civilization itself fell was pretty keen.
But the execution was terrible. As for the Archdemon, they are about the same. Mindless demigod with corrupting influence and an army of mooks. KoS had better backstory, but all the rest was exactly like Bioware's Archdemon.
Mind you, i'm not saying this is Sawyer's or Ziets fault, the game structure was set in stone before they came in, so they propably couldn't change much, just give him a backstory as opposed to redesign him from the start to connect him with the game's structure in a better way.
 
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Roguey

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But the execution was terrible. As for the Archdemon, they are about the same. Mindless demigod with corrupting influence and an army of mooks. KoS had better backstory, but all the rest was exactly like Bioware's Archdemon
Yah, that's the downside of rewriting a plot when there are only a few months left to go. Fucking Ferret.
 

Rake

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But the execution was terrible. As for the Archdemon, they are about the same. Mindless demigod with corrupting influence and an army of mooks. KoS had better backstory, but all the rest was exactly like Bioware's Archdemon
Yah, that's the downside of rewriting a plot when there are only a few months left to go. Fucking Ferret.
See my edit. I don't blame Sawyer on this.
That doesn't change that KoS sucks though


Grunker
Except of course for the "he will destroy the world"-schtick, which I believe is banal enough that I don't have to explain why that connection is ultimately shitty.
Archdemon's connection with the main character was p.much this as well though.
 

Roguey

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The Warden and the Archdemon were linked because you submitted yourself to the taint. A few token dreams/visions.
 

Grunker

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The Warden and the Archdemon were linked because you submitted yourself to the taint. A few token dreams/visions.

I don't think you got the argument: clearly establish connection vs. nearly no reason to care until the end (and then it's not even really a connection to you but more like to an object in your possession). I am not defending the exposition in DA:O here, I'm arguing shades of shit.
 

Copper

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King of Shadows is much closer in concept to the Reapers from Mass Effect, in the end - sure, it didn't destroy its own creators, but the whole concept of 'be careful what you build' is more or less the same, when you strip out the different types of magic. (Neither of them really felt on-point as nuclear weapon / bio-warfare cautionary tales though, which I've always regarded as the root of that type of plot.) King of Shadows is a superior variant than the Reapers in many ways, and they do try and work in the revenge angle by having him wipe out your shithole of a home town, and making you a responsible member of society defending your lands.

The storytelling in NWN2 is however generally very bad, with a completely unjustified boner for shitty, out-of-context cut-scenes to try and inflate the epic stakes, along with pointlessly convoluted plotting for an adventure story. I'd be a lot more impressed if they'd actually edited that shit to be tight instead of adding more 'lore' to explain everything.
 
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Josh said:
That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game. It's great that you view the experiences as more abstract than the nuts and bolts, but no, people clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different. And I know from experience that sort of attitude can poison a player's entire reception of the game.
Yeah I've seen that quote before, like I said it's very convenient.
 
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Whilst my comment was semi-trolling, the fact is that the BG games were dumbed down by the move to RtwP; the original D&D gold box games were glorious in comparison, and possibly because Pools of Radiance was one of my first proper CRPGs, I still regard that as being the proper way to translate D&D to the PC.

Whatever people try and claim about the rtwp set up, its simply not as good as turn based for ultra-tactical play

I'm replaying Pool of Radiance currently, and while it held up far better than I thought it would, tactics are pretty sparse.

Most battles are won through a rudimentary formation of "tough dudes up front, squishy guys in the back" and there's little room for tactical flexibility of any sort. Sure, you throw a few Sleep, Stinking Cloud, and Hold Person spells here and there but use of these spells pretty much fits neatly into the aforementioned tactical scheme. And most of the tactics involved with terrain are pretty rudimentary; most chokepoints are basically gifted to the player, like the one in the enormous Sokal Keep brawl which happens to be right next to the player party spawn point. More "advanced" tactics border or engine/AI exploits. Things like using weaker, lower THAC0/damage enemies as "walls" to trap stronger combatants behind, camping on troll's spot of death to prevent regeneration, or using the hardcoded reticence of enemies to step through Stinking Clouds to your advantage all seem on the level of door abuse in the IE games. The big difference is, IE games, with more abilities and thus greater tactical flexibility, don't hinge on exploits and they aren't a large proportion of the overall tactical pool.

Variance, while present in all D&D games, is far more prevalent in PoR. The biggest offender is the initiative mechanics, something that plagues every turn-based D&D cRPG. Rolls with a largely random component are a terrible way to determine sequence of actions, especially in a system in which the first mover gains a tremendous advantage. Battles can easily be won or lost in a round, with one (un)lucky roll...it seems silly to have such an advantage hinge on random rolls. But that's how it is in Gold Box games, ToEE, or KotC. Sometimes your rolls are bad, and one or more party members are out of the fight before you even have a chance to act. That's anti-tactical (to say nothing of the fact that order of actions is inaccessible information in the Gold Box games).

And the there were the little things, like healing/turning lacking the deterministic outcomes of the IE games. In Baldur's Gate, one knew how much curative magic would heal, clerics would always be able to turn a certain quantity of hit dice of level-appropriate undead, allowing the player to make informed decisions. In Gold Box games, especially Pool of Radiance, not so much. Turning undead is extremely random. Once a 1st level cleric turned about a dozen skeletons and zombies whereas a 3rd level cleric failed to do anything in four consecutive encounters. Healing is pretty bad as well, with Cure Light Wounds healing between 1-8 points of health and seemingly, though there may be some bias here, tending towards the low side (lots of ones). This means healing in combat is dicey, at best, because one can't count on a significant quantity of health restored to justify the time/resource commitment.

Also worth mentioning are encounters in which enemies have extremely powerful abilities of which the player party has no counter besides appeals to the dice (be it in saves, to-hit rolls, or fortuitous attack rolls). Poisonous foes, level-drainers, and such have no playable counters available to the player, meaning that fights with these baddies are often out of the player's hands. Good strategies against these foes don't ensure clean victories, which spoils any real tactical feel.

My recollection is that some Gold Box games were a bit more tactically interesting, but I also recall some of them descending into total silliness (Pools of Darkness a.k.a. Delayed Blast Firebal: The Game). And as I'm still playing through PoR, and am likely to play some more SSI crawls, I'd be interested to hear of any cool tactics I may be overlooking from any Gold Box mastermen.

(e.g. wizard duels in 2nd edition, which were all about countering the other guy until one of you got unlucky; I recall a couple of tough fights in BGII that were basically set up around the wizard duel contests [something to do with a lich rings a bell] but you could really see the strain being imposed mechanically by the rtwp set up).

There is nothing "lucky" about dealing with spell/combat protections, as there's no randomness with any of them, save relying on Dispel/Remove Magic (which are extremely powerful and strip away most all magic effects for the low cost of a 3rd-level spell slot). Once the player has a strong grasp of the underlying mechanics, selecting a correct anti-magic scheme (in most situations there are multiple good lines of play) is simple, and more clever players will also realize that many defensive combinations have holes in them that can be exploited.

The biggest complaints I have against the sub-systems of magical protections are that the means of participation were not well distributed among the classes and that it interacted poorly, at times, with certain creature's innate immunities (e.g. Rakshasa being immune to spell levels 1-8, Liches being immune to spell levels 1-5, things immune to normal weapons casting Protection From Magical Weapons), but it was remarkably free of silly variance.
 

Roguey

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YCS found that 'shop of "me" with the Josh Sawyer posters and had some laughs. If Josh hasn't seen it before, he has now. :M

Nikaido said:
he keeps talking about sawyer who does everything that is best for design.. then mentions them chosing rtwp because "IE was rtwp" like a good old cargo cult
You are utterly, utterly mistaken. If Pillars of Elegance were cargo cult, it would be using 6 or 7 second rounds because that's how the IE games did it. However, it is not, because Josh correctly believes it feels terrible. Cargo cult is blindly copying/mimicking without understanding.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=127
Josh said:
I think both real-time and turn-based combat have the potential to be awesome or terrible. I just want the combat to be executed well. I do think that round-based combat is pretty clunky and antiquated for CRPGs whether you're acting in real-time or turns. In general, I like the idea that actions fill in on an infinite timeline that only ends when combat does. It would be terrible bookkeeping for pen and paper, but I think it would help in CRPGs, especially if developers want to support turn-based and real-time in the same game.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
The action system PE is using isn't really that different from what the IE games did (action + cooldown). The only difference is the time divisions.

They originally had a different system implemented and changed it because it was too fast and "not IE enough".

Your praise for Josh in that regard is not necessarily placed correctly. There are plenty of people who think the IE system is terrible. There aren't many people that would try to achieve the same feeling using a similar system.

I like the feel of the IE combat, and we'll see in the beta whether they've managed to capture it.
 

Roguey

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Too fast gets us Dragon Age II which doesn't feel all that great when it comes to comprehending information and executing tactics.

No-round real-time combat that moves at a comfortable pace = good. I don't doubt there are some who feel it will move too slow, but they'd feel the same way about any kind of turn-based. To hell with 'em.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Probably more like a MOBA actually, as originally there wasn't really a wait time between actions, unless it was hardcoded. Attack speed originally governed the animation speed, rather than the time between actions. I asked about this like a year and a half ago in one of the Update threads on the official forums, but even back then they realized that they needed to change it.

Rounds doesn't really have anything to do with the pace of the combat as it's just a measurement of time. The number of actions per round does. When characters get up to 2+ attacks per round in the IE games is when the pace starts to feel good. For some classes though this takes forever, whereas for others (Ranger in BG1 at level 1) it happens much earlier.

One interesting thing is:

Most spells take 3 seconds to cast and 3 seconds to recover, so 6 seconds total.

most spells can only be cast "once per round" like the IE games :P
 

jdinatale

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Just curious, do you guys think Obsidian or Josh has had an "oh shit" moment yet where they wonder if their game will live up to the very high bar set by Original Sin? It will be interesting if reviews come in and say, "It's pretty good, but not as good as D:OS..."
 

nikolokolus

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Hopefully Pillars will scratch a different itch? It won't be the same type of game but I expect the narrative, characterization and C&C will rival D:OS ... I want both to be critical successes.
 

Volourn

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Well.. The narrative and writing should be better. Those - espicially story wuise - is NOT D:OS's strong suit. D:OS is overrated. Good, fun game but not 'best ever'. Anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Just curious, do you guys think Obsidian or Josh has had an "oh shit" moment yet where they wonder if their game will live up to the very high bar set by Original Sin? It will be interesting if reviews come in and say, "It's pretty good, but not as good as D:OS..."
no
 

The Fish

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Well.. The narrative and writing should be better. Those - espicially story wuise - is NOT D:OS's strong suit. D:OS is overrated. Good, fun game but not 'best ever'. Anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

Some of the writing in Divinity Original sin was atrocious as you imply. I would go a step further and say the gameplay wasn't all that great either. In fact there was very little about the game I enjoyed.

Can someone please explain why everyone has a hard on for it?
 

Perkel

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I hope they will blow our pants off with story, quests, C&C and dialogs.
 

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