Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Nigro]

Yes, Tim Cain too, as well as your mother.

Hey bro, no need to offend me, I'm just curious as to what one of the lead developers of Project Eternity sexual orientation is, I'm not trying to offend anyone here..

Trying too hard, etc.

No, you are the one trying to hard, all I did was ask a question and I was expecting an answer, you are trying to portray me as a troll, just because you are obviously mad about something

 

[Grunker]

Regarding BG2, that's probably - technically - no level-scaling since the levels of enemies did not scale. More like encounter-scaling insofar as depending on party-level more and/or more powerful enemies got added to certain encounters, probably also depending on difficulty level, for instance Demogorgon would spawn babaus or glabrezus on normal, but balors and mariliths on higher difficulties. iirc.

This is worth making a post about on the Obsidian forums.

Here we go.

Don't scale individual enemies, scale ENCOUNTERS http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60889-level-scaling-dont-scale-individual-enemies-scale-encounters/

You are suggestion functionally the same thing as level scaling. The point is that it makes leveling pointless and exploration trivial (encounters will be your level, not walkover or impossible).

BG2 was OK because it concerned very few encounters.

What you're suggesting is almost as bad as normal level-scaling.

 

[J_C]

Yes, Tim Cain too, as well as your mother.

Hey bro, no need to offend me, I'm just curious as to what one of the lead developers of Project Eternity sexual orientation is, I'm not trying to offend anyone here..

He is not gay.

 

[Nigro]

Yes, Tim Cain too, as well as your mother.

Hey bro, no need to offend me, I'm just curious as to what one of the lead developers of Project Eternity sexual orientation is, I'm not trying to offend anyone here..

He is not gay.

Thanks man, that's all I wanted to know.

 

[Jarpie]

Yes, Tim Cain too, as well as your mother.

Hey bro, no need to offend me, I'm just curious as to what one of the lead developers of Project Eternity sexual orientation is, I'm not trying to offend anyone here..

He is not gay.

Thanks man, that's all I wanted to know.

What difference would've it made?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Over-reacting? On MY Codex?

So what exactly is Obsidian doing in this game that is like the IE game?

The perspective and that is it?

Talking to yourself?

just because you are obviously mad about something

Yes, I think your avatar is offensive.

 

[Nigro]

Yes, Tim Cain too, as well as your mother.

Hey bro, no need to offend me, I'm just curious as to what one of the lead developers of Project Eternity sexual orientation is, I'm not trying to offend anyone here..

He is not gay.

Thanks man, that's all I wanted to know.

What difference would've it made?

Maybe nothing, I dunno, I'm just curious, we will see it when the game gets released I guess..

 

[wormix]

I just had a vision of people in the Obsidian office giggling like schoolgirls at the codex's reaction.
Any chance that slipping "cooldowns" and "level-scaling" was to troll?

 

[Infinitron]

Regarding BG2, that's probably - technically - no level-scaling since the levels of enemies did not scale. More like encounter-scaling insofar as depending on party-level more and/or more powerful enemies got added to certain encounters, probably also depending on difficulty level, for instance Demogorgon would spawn babaus or glabrezus on normal, but balors and mariliths on higher difficulties. iirc.

This is worth making a post about on the Obsidian forums.

Here we go.

Don't scale individual enemies, scale ENCOUNTERS http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60889-level-scaling-dont-scale-individual-enemies-scale-encounters/

You are suggestion functionally the same thing as level scaling. The point is that it makes leveling pointless and exploration trivial (encounters will be your level, not walkover or impossible).

BG2 was OK because it concerned very few encounters.

What you're suggesting is almost as bad as normal level-scaling.

That depends on the granularity of the scaling. Since there's only a limited set of monsters in the game, the difficulty of the encounter will rarely scale exactly to the party's level. It will usually be somewhat harder or somewhat easier.

 

[Grunker]

Grunker

It depends how many gradients of scaling exist. Since there's only a limited set of monsters in the game, the difficulty of the encounter will rarely scale exactly to the party's level. It will usually be somewhat harder or somewhat easier.

It's still a mechanic that mostly limits player freedom does little else.

Again; this was never a problem before. Level-scaling fixes a problem that doesn't exist. Why? Tell me the fuck why?

 

[Hobo Elf]

Level scaling and cool downs in PE now? Funding withdrawn. I'm not paying Obsidian to remake Dragon Age. Fuck those losers.

 

[Infinitron]

The point is what it always was. To argue with a bunch of motherfuckers who want Dragon Age. The only difference now is it looks like they're actually going to get everything they want. Everyone was saying that Obsidian should just make the game they want to make. Well, it turns out Obsidian devs are not so hostile to nextgen shit after all. Maybe they haven't been making mostly shit since Black Isle because they were forced. Maybe they actually like it and the only problem they had was they couldn't make their games even more nextgen. Maybe the only reason they are selling old-school nostalgia games is that they can't compete with the likes of those Bethfuckers or EAsses at their own game. So what do they do? Change the game a bit

Well, it's pretty obvious that there's a contigent within Obsidian who basically want the company to be "Bioware for smart people". Not without justification - there are a lot of people out there who are fans of Obsidian for precisely that reason. "Wow, this is like Bioware, but for adults!"

Actually, most of their fans probably feel this way.

 

[Infinitron]

Grunker

It depends how many gradients of scaling exist. Since there's only a limited set of monsters in the game, the difficulty of the encounter will rarely scale exactly to the party's level. It will usually be somewhat harder or somewhat easier.

It's still a mechanic that mostly limits player freedom does little else.

It's not true that it does little else. Done properly, it can add more challenging encounters to the game in place of curb-stomps. We've had a thread about this before.

 

[wormix]

It's still a mechanic that mostly limits player freedom does little else.

Again; this was never a problem before. Level-scaling fixes a problem that doesn't exist. Why? Tell me the fuck why?

So that if you visit a dungeon or area tuned for a certain level when you're a higher level, you don't steamroll the place. Obviously there needs to be some kind of believable range but this is the idea.

If anything it's meant to give you more freedom, so that you can visit areas in a less strict order in order to retain challenge. At least this is the way I see it.

The "tuned for a certain level" is what a lot of games lose when they go full retard.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You are suggestion functionally the same thing as level scaling. The point is that it makes leveling pointless and exploration trivial (encounters will be your level, not walkover or impossible).

BG2 was OK because it concerned very few encounters.

What you're suggesting is almost as bad as normal level-scaling.

Let's look at an example from BG2. In Athkatla underground on the way to the beholder lair is one of those spawn spots with "dynamic difficulty adjustment". It's where you get the dex gloves 18 iirc. When you go there at, say, lvl10 there will be a few ghuls, skeleton warriors and a mummy or two.
Be a few levels higher and additionally to those foes there will appear two greater mummies. Be a few levels higher and a lich will spawn on top of it all.

Now explain to me, what's so bad about that? How does it restrict player freedom? As I see it the only result is that when I go there at sufficiently high level, instead of just roflstomping the lesser undead I'll have a lich to deal with too, and the encounter retains challenge. Which is a good thing.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ladies...

I thought it was clear from day one that the game will have cooldowns, so I don't understand the sudden "oh noes! the cooldowns are in!" cries. Is Roguey the only one with brains here?

It was clear (I hope) that the game won't use the Vancian system, which isn't a huge loss as it was never implemented well (definitely not in the IE or NWN games where the formula was rest, blast your foes, rinse and repeat). It works like a charm in a controlled environment (PnP) but not in cRPGs where little Johny's feelings must be taken into consideration. Sad but true.

So, if not memorization, then what? A pure mana system a-la Diablo? Sure mana-based casting worked well in the old games like Realms of Arkania where magic was going up slowly, but in modern RPGs (and PE is a modern RPG whether you like it or not) it goes up fast and you get a steady supply of mana potions, should you find the regen rate too slow.

Therefore, the cooldowns are the only options here. While they are mostly associated with shitty MMO and "watch the cooldowns" mini-game, there is no reason to believe that they can't be done well, because in a nutshell, every magic system is designed to restrict spellcasting in some way. As Feargus pointed out, DnD's X number of use per day abilities are nothing but very long cooldowns. From this point of view, cooldowns definitely work and they can work very well, as long as they aren't too fast.

Of course, Obsidian will most likely try to make combat actiony, but we knew that from day one when they said RTwP (i.e. cooldowns have nothing to do with it).

 

[Grunker]

Why do you have a level-up system in an RPG?

 

[Infinitron]

Holy shit! VD really does worship at the feet of Tim Cain. It's not just a joke!

 

[Jaesun]

To be honest, a cool down system that is limed by the number of times a DAY (somewhat similar to the IE games) could/might be interesting, and limited rest might be interesting. I still more prefer IE's system (pick only a limited set of spells out of many per day).

If it is Dragon Turd's wow spam spell shit, then well. KILL IT WITH FIRE.

 

[Visbhume]

What are cooldowns

 

[Infinitron]

how is cooldown formed

how gaem get decline

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Why do you have a level-up system in an RPG?

Exactly, it's neither bad nor does it restrict player freedom. If anything, you're free to go there later and still have a challenge.

If by your "answer" you mean to imply that this encounter should exist only in its toughest version (effectively restricting player freedom, because you have to level up sufficiently first before going there), then I'm OK with that too, because in my games that's the default behavior anyways because I have the "almost toughest random encounters" mod installed.

 

[wormix]

That's the thing, when you mention cooldowns everyone thinks short cooldowns like WoW, Dragon Age, etc. (and they should know this) Not long "per day" cooldown abilities, and the reference of that (in the comment) just seems to be "but D&D had cooldowns too!".

Long cooldowns can be interesting because you have to decide between using them now and them not being available later. Short cooldowns do not have this consideration. They are both "balanced" in the same way, in that the cooldown is added to prevent the ability from being overused. But when the cooldown is short enough this ceases to be a strategic decision and turns into something else entirely, something horrible.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Who cares if you are free to explore wherever you want to go if it's not fun? Half the fun in exploration is discovering the uncertain and the unknown. It's exciting to go off and explore some caves without knowing if it will lead to a quick death or not. It's also exciting to try and tackle lethal encounters not meant for your level by using every tool you have picked up on your journey. You people say the game will have a consistent challenge if the game is scaled to your level, but I raise you a "it goes both ways" card. That just means that every encounter will always be scaled so that you should be able to beat them. Where's the fun if you know that victory is a certainty? What's the point in exploration if you know that even though there are enemies, you will be able to defeat them?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Infinitron
It has nothing to do with Cain. In fact, I expect combat to suck. Why? You mean other than 'because it's RTwP'? Because it's an Obsidian's game and good combat was never their forte, for some reason. When Obsidian announced their KS, did anyone here think "I bet combat's gonna be good this time!"? If yes, why?

Obsidian excels at 3 things (when the leash isn't too tight): interesting worlds with some depth, great dialogues, great role-playing. This is what I expected, this is why I pledged $500, this is what I want to support.