Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Aeschylus]

Infinitron

I am not mad with Obsidian. I am mad with you people. It seems that most either don't care or are actively slurping this shit up like faithful pig familiars.

Out of curiosity, by 'this shit' do you mean cool-down mechanics in combat, and it being RTwP rather than turn-based? Because I haven't really seen anyone raise any other pertinent concerns, other than sub-par concept sketches I guess.

There are more and better ways to implement magic. Take VMTB for example. It had a mana bar (blood, which granted was a bit too over abundant) but still made amazing balance. I can think of numerous ways to improve and implement it.

I do thing the way White Wolf implemented disciplines in VTM was very solid mechanics-wise, and could be interesting if a similar (soul-based, I guess) system were created for PE.

 

[Infinitron]

Whatever. I'm not a fanboy. If I was, I wouldn't be telling people to stick to their convictions and remove their pledges if they can't accept cooldowns.

Don't try to convince yourself that maybe this game might be for you by arguing with people on the Internet. It probably isn't.

 

[Jaesun]

Infinitron

I am not mad with Obsidian. I am mad with you people. It seems that most either don't care or are actively slurping this shit up like faithful pig familiars.

What is wrong with the currently proposed system?

 

[Alex]

I think that, in the end, this is all about Obsidian not wanting the player to deal with long time resources. If Obsidian really wanted to compromise, they would have lots of options still. For example, they could have a mana bar together with spell memorization. The mana bar would quickly fill once combat was over, but limit the amount of spells used in the combat itself. Then, the player could memorize spells for the whole day. He would memorize more than in normal D&D. This would mean that there still would be a long term resource management, but the mana bar would limit how many spells he can spend in each battle, allowing a tighter control of how much magic he uses in each encounter.

Now, at the very least, this is helping make our discussions more in line with the discussions between people who like 4e D&D and people who like 3de, or 2e or whatever (though I think 3e and 2e are almost as different too). Te new game seems to be solidly in the first camp to me, though. then again, I am solidly in the second, so maybe I am not seeing things objectively. Still, I think you people should, er, cool down. To be frank, this project has only surprised me positively thus far. Then again, I was expecting some unholy combination of Dragon Age and Alpha Protocol. I commended Mr. Sawyer earlier and I stand by that. I get the feeling that, at the very least, they are actually listening and considering what we say. I think it would be worthwhile to keep discussing these things in the forums, and try to change their minds, or at least get them to reveal more details.

That could be tied to the HARD CORE mode option. And I personally would like to see that. IF they could design encounters with that in mind. But I don't know.

I really doubt that, Jaesun. Not only would this require "lore" to be changed, but it would require a lot of work. They are being tight enough with their resources that they won't allow certain options because they would require animation. Which, by the way, I think is a damn shame, letting graphics dictate combat rules like this. Still, my point is that any options they do implement probably won't mean they will change the whole game to be in line with that option. For example, I doubt it very much that all those options in hardcore mode that you don't know for sure the requirements will have hints about how high they will need to be.

A high level wizard should be characterized by his/her wit, resourcefulness, and subtlety, not by being a walking fireball factory.

Certainly. But I do feel that uber-level wizards should have the ability to be a "walking fireball factory". That's how they are described in the lore, as nigh-invincible masters of the elements.

But when you look at the mechanics of a Vancian system they seem rather mundane. Remember this line from BG? "Elminster this, Elminster that. Give *me* 2000 years and a pointy hat and I'll kick his arse!"

I dunno, Infinitron. Being able to cast those spells infinitely seems even more mundane to me. Like, you have the ability to keep a flame thrower level fire constantly coming out of your fingers and all you can do with it is causing 1d8 damage per round? I mean, in D&D at least these abilities have a price (if low one) and thus can be more interesting.

I don't think we should assume that spells in PE are going to be of the power-level that they were in ad&d and 3.xE.

Indeed, and this is one of the most troubling aspects of it all.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Formspring

There have been some concerns regarding Cain's proposed Wizard magic system. Mainly that it means we can use every spell repeadetly in longer combat encounters. Can you calm our fears?
I think it depends on what you consider "longer". Practically speaking, even a mid-level mage would have to be in an encounter for a long time to both exhaust entire levels of spells and then continue the battle long enough to see those levels unlock again.

Let's assume a 10th level PE wizard has the same number of "castings" per level to cast as a 10th level wizard in D&D 3E. I don't know how we would want to roll over levels of spells from per-rest resources to timed lockout resources, but for now let's say that the wizard's 5th and 4th level spells are per-rest resources (just like normal D&D) and that 3rd, 2nd, and 1st level spells are on timed lockouts. For simplicity, let's also assume that it takes about the same amount of time to cast these spells in a full round as it would in an IE game. Though we will not use the same timing as the IE games, it's likely that wizard spells will be among the more time-consuming actions to perform.

Using D&D spells for this example, the wizard could cast fireball three times or fireball once, then haste, then slow, or two hastes and a fireball -- in any combination, the wizard has exhausted all three of his or her 3rd level spell slots. All level 3 spells are now locked out for 30(ish) seconds. The wizard would have to cast another five spells before the level 3 spells were available for use again. Either the wizard is going to use up a lot of 2nd and 1st level castings (possibly locking out one of those two levels in the process) or is going to be eating into his or her per-rest resources.

There are a number of tools we can use to balance how this works: 1) the number of castings before a level is locked out 2) the time that an individual level is locked out before it can be used again 3) when a wizard's spell levels roll over from being per-rest to timed lockout (e.g. in this example, maybe 3rd level spells should still be per-rest, but 2nd and 1st are timed lockout) and 4) the power of the individual spells.

Our goal is to allow casters to contribute to combat in a way that is more substantive than hucking sling stones without always needing to chew into a per-rest resource. Additionally, we want the caster's higher level spells to be reasonably powerful but also a strategic resource for the player to manage.

 

[Infinitron]

I was not aware that they were still considering using per-rest spell replenishment as well.

This changes things.

 

[Volrath]

I was not aware that they were still considering using per-rest spell replenishment as well.

This changes things.

That means no regeneration of spells between encounters? That's good right?

 

[Infinitron]

I was not aware that they were still considering using per-rest spell replenishment as well.

This changes things.

That means no regeneration of spells between encounters? That's good right?

No regeneration of high-level spells (relative to the mage's level) between encounters.

 

[CappenVarra]

For all we know, the equivalents of 3rd level D&D spells could be the pinnacle of spellcasting in PE. I mean, sure, what we saw so far is firmly in "I can't believe it's not margarineD&D" territory, but if they're changing the system one would presume they would consider the implications of those changes and avoid obviously broken stuff. Then again, game developers rarely see what's broken in the system they make until a few OCDmeister-level players break it. How broken will the new system they come up be, and will they have time/budget to rewritefix it during the beta phase? I don't know, you tell me. I'll take Vancian any day of the week, but since they are confident they can make something better, well let them. And I don't think coming up with strawman examples why an imaginary implementation based on some vague pointers they mentioned is obviously broken can be considered valid criticism. And we won't know any details to base an informed decision on since there are no details to be revealed. Obviously, the only solution is for them to hold monthly design discussions in the Codex Workshop and let us design a non-sucky system for them

EDIT:

All level 3 spells are now locked out for 30(ish) seconds.

Damn, this would sound much better if he said "30(ish) minutes". Seconds = KOOLdowns.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Well that sounds better. His line about magic users slinging stones is stupid though. Magic users were the most powerful and useful class in the IE games. You just had to know when to use them.

edit: This still means you will go into every battle fully healed though. Unless all healing spells will be on a rest/recover system.

 

[Infinitron]

EDIT:

All level 3 spells are now locked out for 30(ish) seconds.

Damn, this would sound much better if he said "30(ish) minutes". Seconds = KOOLdowns.

He's just throwing a number out there I think. 30 seconds = 5 rounds in IE Engine. It seems he wants to time it according to the number of other spells the mage can throw until the cooldown ends.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Either the wizard is going to use up a lot of 2nd and 1st level castings (possibly locking out one of those two levels in the process) or is going to be eating into his or her per-rest resources.

Sounds like it might be interesting.

 

[Crooked Bee]

Also:

That's the basic idea: higher level spells are per-rest resources, lower level spells can be cast a certain number of times within a given time period before being locked out for a fixed period of time.

 

[Infinitron]

Also:

That's the basic idea: higher level spells are per-rest resources, lower level spells can be cast a certain number of times within a given time period before being locked out for a fixed period of time.

And he doesn't mention those low-level spells that can be cast with no limits and no cooldown at all from the Reddit Q&A.o_O

 

[Jaesun]

Cool. I am really liking this system. This could be quite interesting.

 

[Excidium]

Well that sounds better. His line about magic users slinging stones is stupid though. Magic users were the most powerful and useful class in the IE games. You just had to know when to use them.

They did sling a whole lot of stones.

 

[Volrath]

Well that sounds better. His line about magic users slinging stones is stupid though. Magic users were the most powerful and useful class in the IE games. You just had to know when to use them.

edit: This still means you will go into every battle fully healed though. Unless all healing spells will be on a rest/recover system.

What makes you think this?

 

[oldmanpaco]

Well if all low level spells are on a cooldown timer then you can spam the low level healing spells until your party is fully healed. So far they have been talking about the arcane side of magic. Perhaps the divine side is different.

 

[Infinitron]

Also:

That's the basic idea: higher level spells are per-rest resources, lower level spells can be cast a certain number of times within a given time period before being locked out for a fixed period of time.

And he doesn't mention those low-level spells that can be cast with no limits and no cooldown at all from the Reddit Q&A.o_O

Oh wait. I think I understand now.

In the old IE games, wizards and priests had resources that got drained and did not regenerate before the next battle, unlike fighters and rogues that few or no such resources. We are looking for a middle ground solution, either one where the wizards aren't the only ones to make a hard choice of whether to "use up" a resource, or one where no class has to make such a choice. For example, we are looking into the idea that wizards are only limited in the number of times they can cast their higher-level combat spells in a fight, and other spell are castable as many times as you want. As the wizard levels up, spells that previously had a limit can now be cast an unlimited number of times, and the newly acquired spells are the ones with a limit. And we could make similar abilities for fighters, priests and rogues too. In general, we always want to the player to have a choice of what to do with a particular character, and we want those choices to change as the character becomes more powerful.

When Tim Cain wrote about "limits", he was referring to the per-rest limit. "Unlimited number of times" = with cooldown.

We weren't aware that they were still considering rest replenishment, so we thought the "limits" WERE the cooldowns.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Well that sounds better. His line about magic users slinging stones is stupid though. Magic users were the most powerful and useful class in the IE games. You just had to know when to use them.

They did sling a whole lot of stones.

Just until your fighter class reactivated. And Edwin never ran out of spells.

 

[Jaesun]

Well if all low level spells are on a cooldown timer then you can spam the low level healing spells until your party is fully healed. So far they have been talking about the arcane side of magic. Perhaps the divine side is different.

I don't think so. Sawyer cryptically mentioned that Healing is not in the way you are thinking it works (as in via healing spells). But I don't know.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Well if all low level spells are on a cooldown timer then you can spam the low level healing spells until your party is fully healed. So far they have been talking about the arcane side of magic. Perhaps the divine side is different.

I don't think so. Sawyer cryptically mentioned that Healing is not in the way you are thinking it works (as in via healing spells). But I don't know.

We need a central location for all posts by the developers from all the random places they are talking. Shit is hard to keep track of.

 

[oldmanpaco]

I have some questions and I haven't been following to closely over the last week and I am too lazy to read the previous 80 pages to see if they have been answered.

1) Have they talked about death and resurrection?
2) Have they talked about what stats will be in the game (STR,DEX, ect.)? And have they named a stat range like FO (1-10), IE (3-18), or DA (10 - 786).
3) Have they clarified at all what pushing the soul awesome button will do? Is it going to be like the Arcanum fate points or something more AWSOUME?
4) Have they talked about feats/perks?
5) Have they talked about background traits?

 

[Crooked Bee]

Also:

That's the basic idea: higher level spells are per-rest resources, lower level spells can be cast a certain number of times within a given time period before being locked out for a fixed period of time.

And he doesn't mention those low-level spells that can be cast with no limits and no cooldown at all from the Reddit Q&A.o_O

Oh wait. I think I understand now.

In the old IE games, wizards and priests had resources that got drained and did not regenerate before the next battle, unlike fighters and rogues that few or no such resources. We are looking for a middle ground solution, either one where the wizards aren't the only ones to make a hard choice of whether to "use up" a resource, or one where no class has to make such a choice. For example, we are looking into the idea that wizards are only limited in the number of times they can cast their higher-level combat spells in a fight, and other spell are castable as many times as you want. As the wizard levels up, spells that previously had a limit can now be cast an unlimited number of times, and the newly acquired spells are the ones with a limit. And we could make similar abilities for fighters, priests and rogues too. In general, we always want to the player to have a choice of what to do with a particular character, and we want those choices to change as the character becomes more powerful.

When Tim Cain wrote about "limits", he was referring to the per-rest limit. "Unlimited number of times" = with cooldown.

We weren't aware that they were still considering rest replenishment, so we thought the "limits" WERE the cooldowns.

Sounds plausible.

 

[Infinitron]

I have some questions and I haven't been following to closely over the last week and I am too lazy to read the previous 80 pages to see if they have been answered.

1) Have they talked about death and resurrection?
2) Have they talked about what stats will be in the game (STR,DEX, ect.)? And have they named a stat range like FO (1-10), IE (3-18), or DA (10 - 786).
3) Have they clarified at all what pushing the soul awesome button will do? Is it going to be like the Arcanum fate points or something more AWSOUME?
4) Have they talked about feats/perks?
5) Have they talked about background traits?

AFAIK, there is no so soul awesome button. The soul stuff is just lore and an explanation for your characters' heroic powers.

The answer to all of your other questions is "No".