Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Roguey]

This fucking place.

Except they're not talking about replacing slings with spells. But if you actually read instead of slamming your face in the keyboard which is what you usually do, maybe you'd have seen they said they want to give mages more options because OMG WHO WANTS TO PLAY MAGES IF THEY CANT DO SHIT ALL THE TIME LIKE THE FIGHTERS.

Ah, wait, maybe you needed some more attention from me again?

In a power fantasy my characters should be awesome. No mages throwing rinky dink pebbles because I want to save my spells for later or because I've already exhausted them. You'd have to be some kind of self-loathing masochist to want to play a lame mage like that.

 

[groke]

Also, whether PE is going to be a turd or not, the discussion it's been provoking on the 'Dex is fantastic. I feel like it's 2006 all over again.

EDIT: I mean, morons like suejak aside.

 

[GordonHalfman]

This fucking place.

Except they're not talking about replacing slings with spells. But if you actually read instead of slamming your face in the keyboard which is what you usually do, maybe you'd have seen they said they want to give mages more options because OMG WHO WANTS TO PLAY MAGES IF THEY CANT DO SHIT ALL THE TIME LIKE THE FIGHTERS.

Ah, wait, maybe you needed some more attention from me again?

In a power fantasy my characters should be awesome. No mages throwing rinky dink pebbles because I want to save my spells for later or because I've already exhausted them. You'd have to be some kind of self-loathing masochist to want to play a lame mage like that.

Responding to a troll post but... being able to do something all the time makes it less awesome not more.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This fucking place.

Except they're not talking about replacing slings with spells. But if you actually read instead of slamming your face in the keyboard which is what you usually do, maybe you'd have seen they said they want to give mages more options because OMG WHO WANTS TO PLAY MAGES IF THEY CANT DO SHIT ALL THE TIME LIKE THE FIGHTERS.

But letting the mages recover their weaker spells after a while is a sensible way of giving mages more things to do than "save spells for actual fights and let fighters sweep the trash" and as a bonus it also helps with the "backtrack to safe resting point" problem, unless the term "cooldown" makes you read it as "press awesome fireball button every 15 seconds", which Sawyer already said is incorrect.

Ah, wait, maybe you needed some more attention from me again?

 

[Roguey]

Responding to a troll post but... being able to do something all the time makes it less awesome not more.

Quantifying awesome: Some spells are more awesome than others. The more awesome spells are for special occasions.

 

[Infinitron]

What, you guys are still talking about this?

Look, until we know which spells will be the lower-level, cooldowning ones and which will be the higher-level, rest-replenished ones, there's no way to know how well this system will play out.

What's nice is that with mods we'll be able to move ALL spells to the latter category.

 

[groke]

Sounds to me like all you gotta do to savescum is reboot the game! Nice!

It's not the devs problem if people want to ruin their goddamn game.

 

[Grunker]

Brofist-disclaimer: I feel CK's point about auto-attacking mages deserves a brofist, but his point about cooldowns does not. I am conflicted.

 

[FeelTheRads]

But letting the mages recover their weaker spells after a while is a sensible way of giving maes more things to do than "save spells for actual fights and let fighters sweep the trash"

But why? Mages work just fine as a support class. And when they get very strong they pretty much clear everything by themselves anyway.
You're thinking in terms of single-character RPGs. Why the fuck should I choose one over the other if a mage is just as efficient as a fighter in every encounter? That's why there are classes. To complement each other. Not to overbalance them to the point when, as I said before, the only choice is whether you prefer to see cool explosions or cool fighting animations. Or in the case of Obsidian, shitty explosions and shitty fighting animations.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Just equip the pink tutu, everything will be clear then.

You're thinking in terms of single-character RPGs. Why the fuck should I choose one over the other if a mage is just as efficient as a fighter in every encounter?

That's assuming they're fully refreshed for each encounter, which they likely won't be since there's no 15-second cooldown fireball button. Plus, fighters can take more damage, deal it more consistently (don't have to deal with spell cooldowns), equip / carry more stuff, etc. There's more to classes than raw DPS.

 

[J_C]

What a witty retort! Does this mean that you don't have an answer?

I can invest time, but there are always cases when I can't invest enough. So I shouldn't play that game? Fuck you!

But does it mean that because you don't like it each and every game is forbidden to have it? No, fuck you. Play the games you can play. There's no obligation to play everything. Not everything has to be the same fucking thing just because you might not like it. Fucking Bethard is what you are. You should stick around there with like-minded individuals.

Fucking basement dweller, i want to play this fucking game but I don't want to be able to save only at checkponts (towns), because there are times when something comes up and I have to quit immediately. Get a fucking life!

 

[Grunker]

Just equip the pink tutu, everything will be clear then.

Fair warning: I am considering retracting my brofist as a result of this post. Do not anger me further.

 

[suejak]

Sounds to me like all you gotta do to savescum is reboot the game! Nice!

It's not the devs problem if people want to ruin their goddamn game.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you can apply it to anything. Why are we asking for restrictions on resting at all? Or no-save dungeons? People should put these restrictions on themselves! It's not the devs' fault if people abuse resting mechanics by resting/saving after every fight.

It's almost as though... freedom... is the best design choice...?

 

[Grunker]

Get a fucking life!

A life? What is this eldritch construction?

Seriously bro, if you're so far out you're left arguing that the opposition has no life because he likes devoting time to playing video games, while at the same time you're posting on the fucking RPG Codex, then your anger has consumed you and blinded you to the traits of hateful but constructive debate.

Come back to the light, J_C. We didn't mean to make you mad

 

[hoverdog]

What a witty retort! Does this mean that you don't have an answer?

I can invest time, but there are always cases when I can't invest enough. So I shouldn't play that game? Fuck you!

But does it mean that because you don't like it each and every game is forbidden to have it? No, fuck you. Play the games you can play. There's no obligation to play everything. Not everything has to be the same fucking thing just because you might not like it. Fucking Bethard is what you are. You should stick around there with like-minded individuals.

Fucking basement dweller, i want to play this fucking game but I don't want to be able to save only at checkponts (towns), because there are times when something comes up and I have to quit immediately. Get a fucking life!

Matt, you are being incredibly angry as of late. Do peopl you chat with irritate you that much? Maybe you should, as the elves say, chillax for a while.

 

[taxalot]

The main problem I believe with the Vancian system is that you cannot cast a lot of spells before going to bed, and it makes for unrealistic dungeon romps. I am sure we all agree on that.

I believe a nice compromise would be
1-Being able to memorize every spell for 15/20 (less or more, depending on the strength of spell) times, which is a bigger amount than what the Infinity Engine games allowed.
2-Forbid the player to rest in the dungeons.

This way you would have a mage powerful enough to cast a few spells while dungeon crawling, YET also you would need to manage these. For long dungeon treks, maybe an item like an expensive potion or something could resto 25,50 , 75 or even 100 percents of your memory. It should not be something that the player gets his hand often though.

It's simple and yet, should work and be strategic enough.

 

[Volrath]

What a witty retort! Does this mean that you don't have an answer?

I can invest time, but there are always cases when I can't invest enough. So I shouldn't play that game? Fuck you!

But does it mean that because you don't like it each and every game is forbidden to have it? No, fuck you. Play the games you can play. There's no obligation to play everything. Not everything has to be the same fucking thing just because you might not like it. Fucking Bethard is what you are. You should stick around there with like-minded individuals.

Fucking basement dweller, i want to play this fucking game but I don't want to be able to save only at checkponts (towns), because there are times when something comes up and I have to quit immediately. Get a fucking life!

Like somebody said before, save at exit would fix this problem easily.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I don't like rampant resting from a LARP perspective. Isn't fun.

How are they gonna keep you from resting anywhere you want anyway? NO, you are in a DUNGEON, so you can't leave until you beat it!! Sounds like an NES game. No thanks.

So how do you explain individual levels of spells just locking out after a certain amount of use? It's 100% gamey.

Nah, it could be realistic. I can do 3 sets of push ups a day till I get good, then I can pretty much go all day. Same with calculus problems or other strenuous endeavors. I think it's at least a decent observation anyway.

But it doesn't work this way. You can spread out your push ups and calculus problems across the day and do more without getting tired. The way it's implied that cooldowns work is that it's not fatigue based. I can imagine someone getting tired after 4 spells if they are cast within a relative close time frame, but here you could cast 3 spells, wait an hour and then cast a 4th one and then you'd suddenly be locked in a cooldown. Not to mention that it clearly isn't fatigue based because you can still use other spells anyway. The better equivalent to this would be that after kicking 4 times I'm too tired to kick, but not too tired to punch and head butt. And that doesn't make much sense.

It sometimes works that way. I might be tired from push ups and do jumping jacks for instance. I'm a master at algebra so I don't get fed up like I do at calculus. I'm not shitting out hyperbole either, since these are actual cases I have experienced. Also, fatigue and time are entirely related so I'm not sure what your getting at. I think by dividing cooldowns into levels, Obsidian creates a much more digestible mechanic than the vancian, mana, or mmo like cooldown systems we've previously seen. Maybe it'll be shit, but at this point I like what I see.

Upon closer thinking I came to the conclusion that if souls worked in a similar-ish way as chakra, then it could be possible from a larp perspective. But that's entirely up to Obsidian and how they handle it. When I said that it couldn't work I said it under the assumption that the soul is just a sort of lump of mass, like a well you can draw water from, but it's without personality or different complexities. You know, like something that's just "raw power" and there's this much if it that you can use, instead of being something multifaceted.
Anyway, when I was talking about fatigue, I meant full physical fatigue. I know if your legs get tired from work out you can still move your hands about, but I meant that if your whole body gets tired like if you run as fast as you can as long as you can, and then a little bit more, you'll probably be tired as all hell and most likely your punches wont pack the same strength as they would if you weren't worn so out. As for mental fatigue with calculations, I work at a science lab where I can do many different calculations each day. I never really get tired of it though.

 

[General Maxson]

What a witty retort! Does this mean that you don't have an answer?

I can invest time, but there are always cases when I can't invest enough. So I shouldn't play that game? Fuck you!

But does it mean that because you don't like it each and every game is forbidden to have it? No, fuck you. Play the games you can play. There's no obligation to play everything. Not everything has to be the same fucking thing just because you might not like it. Fucking Bethard is what you are. You should stick around there with like-minded individuals.

Fucking basement dweller, i want to play this fucking game but I don't want to be able to save only at checkponts (towns), because there are times when something comes up and I have to quit immediately. Get a fucking life!

I thought being a basement dweller was something to be proud of, especially here at RPGCodex... o_O

If it means there are no casuals involved that "have a life" and want dumbed down and simplified game, so they can manage playing "when they have the time".

Spreading of gaming industry over casuals and mainstream and above the circle of basement dwellers IS what brought shit games and decline in the first place.

Look at games 20 years ago, when all gamers were basically basement dwellers, look at them now.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Just equip the pink tutu, everything will be clear then.

Fair warning: I am considering retracting my brofist as a result of this post. Do not anger me further.

You were just a fling. I don't need you anymore, I've seen 1eyedking posting a few pages back. Now that's a man with good taste. He'd never wear a blue bug helmet. Blue and pink clash so bad with each other.



edit:

If it means there are no casuals involved that "have a life" and want dumbed down and simplified game, so they can manage playing "when they have the time".

So you're saying games that you can play for as long as you want are dumbed down simplified casual shit?

I just realized something - Fallout is about a basement dweller who goes out and makes the world his bitch. Maybe that's why it's the Codex GOTY every year?

 

[Lockkaliber]

I feel like there's no way to really know how well the system's gonna work out until we a) see what kinds of spells are in the different tiers and b) we get to see how a dungeons encounters are designed.

 

[groke]

Sounds to me like all you gotta do to savescum is reboot the game! Nice!

It's not the devs problem if people want to ruin their goddamn game.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you can apply it to anything. Why are we asking for restrictions on resting at all? Or no-save dungeons? People should put these restrictions on themselves! It's not the devs' fault if people abuse resting mechanics by resting/saving after every fight.

It's almost as though... freedom... is the best design choice...?

No, you dumbfuck, bypassing a restriction != placing imaginary restrictions on yourself.

If the devs institute a restriction like permadeath and you intentionally bypass that restriction then your experience is not that intended by the devs. Likewise, if the developer permits you to rest in dungeons with no consequence then resting after every encounter is not an abuse of the mechanics and the game will be balanced with this in mind!

Holy fuck, I bet you're one of those retards that always go with their first roll at charagen because otherwise it's abusing the mechanics.

 

[General Maxson]

So you're saying games that you can play for as long as you want are dumbed down simplified casual shit?

Nope, but the logic of thinking that making the game more casual friendly by making it simpler and more accessible so "anyone" with a shortage of time can play it has led us to where we are today.

 

[Volrath]

Just because someone has less time to play a game doesn't mean he automatically wants that game to be less hard(core).

 

[DalekFlay]

Like somebody said before, save at exit would fix this problem easily.

True enough, I would enjoy that mode.