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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

asper

Arcane
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,222
Project: Eternity
And that point is determined by...? Funny, since one of the best arguments against fluffy Bioware romances and emo characters is that they're completely unrealistic. So yeah, I think more realism means a better game.

Look, homosexuality is simply a quite common thing, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
And that point is determined by...? Funny, since one of the best arguments against fluffy Bioware romances and emo characters is that they're completely unrealistic. So yeah, I think more realism means a better game.

Look, homosexuality is simply a quite common thing, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
THen you fail to see what I mean.

It is unimportant whether the thing is realistic or not (how does one even decide that in terms of social issues?). The point is whether it makes the story better or not. If it is not adding anything to the story or is somehow making it weaker then it should not be there.

This is exactly why I believe ROmanecs should not be in games. I hope that is the reason for MCA as well although I can't guarantee that.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
And that point is determined by...? Funny, since one of the best arguments against fluffy Bioware romances and emo characters is that they're completely unrealistic. So yeah, I think more realism means a better game.

Look, homosexuality is simply a quite common thing, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
THen you fail to see what I mean.

It is unimportant whether the thing is realistic or not (how does one even decide that in terms of social issues?). The point is whether it makes the story better or not. If it is not adding anything to the story or is somehow making it weaker then it should not be there.

This is exactly why I believe ROmanecs should not be in games. I hope that is the reason for MCA as well although I can't guarantee that.

Still, that only means that you can include romances, the *ghay*, paedophilia and all bunch of other stuff if they reinforce themes of the story. For example, TWitcher 2 did that pretty well without compromising its plot or gameplay (the quality of the latter is questionable, but its problem did not stem from the game touching upon these issues).
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,061
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
REMOVE GD SHIT FROM THE PREMISES

I'm still floored by the fact that Lyric Suite honestly thinks The Witcher series is politically correct. :lol:
 

asper

Arcane
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Messages
2,222
Project: Eternity
And that point is determined by...? Funny, since one of the best arguments against fluffy Bioware romances and emo characters is that they're completely unrealistic. So yeah, I think more realism means a better game.

Look, homosexuality is simply a quite common thing, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
THen you fail to see what I mean.

It is unimportant whether the thing is realistic or not (how does one even decide that in terms of social issues?). The point is whether it makes the story better or not. If it is not adding anything to the story or is somehow making it weaker then it should not be there.

This is exactly why I believe ROmanecs should not be in games. I hope that is the reason for MCA as well although I can't guarantee that.

Still, that only means that you can include romances, the *ghay*, paedophilia and all bunch of other stuff if they reinforce themes of the story. Twitcher 2 did that pretty well without compromising its plot or gameplay.

Only marginally If I may add. That also never really was a message but rather just a view into some characters whose activities in these area never really playing a focus on its social outlook.

Also, TW2 was set in a world that was written PRIOR to the game. In fact it was necessary to hold true to it in some way or other simply for the sake on integrity.

Including gays or romances also isn't a "message". I agree with you that every element of the game should reinforce it, but you seem to draw the conclusion from this that no good game with these elements is possible at all. If something is good and fits the context, it may enhance the game, and that holds also for romances.The Nameless' One story with Deionarra was also a romance of sorts, and it was one of the driving threads of Torment. I agree with you that the criterion should be - "does it enhance the game?" and not political views or whatever.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
And that point is determined by...? Funny, since one of the best arguments against fluffy Bioware romances and emo characters is that they're completely unrealistic. So yeah, I think more realism means a better game.

Look, homosexuality is simply a quite common thing, no need to get your knickers in a twist.
THen you fail to see what I mean.

It is unimportant whether the thing is realistic or not (how does one even decide that in terms of social issues?). The point is whether it makes the story better or not. If it is not adding anything to the story or is somehow making it weaker then it should not be there.

This is exactly why I believe ROmanecs should not be in games. I hope that is the reason for MCA as well although I can't guarantee that.

Still, that only means that you can include romances, the *ghay*, paedophilia and all bunch of other stuff if they reinforce themes of the story. Twitcher 2 did that pretty well without compromising its plot or gameplay.

Only marginally If I may add. That also never really was a message but rather just a view into some characters whose activities in these area never really playing a focus on its social outlook.

Only partially. There were numerous major controversial conflicts and powerplay which were the focus of the game (the whole racism, and terrorism themes) which the characters were directly involved in.

And as for really sensitive issues I think it was safe to say that in case of TW2, it was touching upon them done right. All of them did reinforce the themes of corruption and double-standards, even if they sort of happened in the background. And I think it is important to explore such issues, however difficult they may be.

Also, TW2 was set in a world that was written PRIOR to the game. In fact it was necessary to hold true to it in some way or other simply for the sake on integrity.

This doesn't change the fact that this level of insight into difficult issues is possible in games. Even if TW2 is based on a series of books, it doesn't mean that PE cannot mirror its approach on its own.
 

HanoverF

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 23, 2002
Messages
6,083
MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2
This thread keeps taking the most bizarre turns.


So hay I hear this gaem has kooldowns. :M
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,803
From this Sawyer interview:

JS: Personally, I take a lot of inspiration from history. Because Project Eternity is set during an era of exploration and colonization, I’m looking at the interactions, violent and otherwise, between colonizing and colonized cultures. I’m interested in exploring daily friction and the difficulties that people run into when they try to live in the area between two (or more) cultures. There are famous “great men of history” examples like T.E. Lawrence, but I’m more interested in figures of lesser notoriety like the Italian Jesuit Matteo Ricci or Jean Baptiste Charbonneau, the son of Sacagawea. Also, I find some of the more contemporary “reverse” colonization trends like the French Congo’s La SAPE movement fascinating. I’m also starting to look in more detail at the state of epistemology and metaphysics in the medieval world prior to the rise of humanist thought, mostly exemplified by writers like Thomas Aquinas and William of Ockham. The printing press doesn’t exist yet in the world of Project Eternity and academic disciplines still tend to be elitist and exclusionary. Popular movements, on the rare occasion that they do occur, tend to be driven by passion and basic human needs rather than any sort of widespread philosophical movement.

If he wants to truly learn about medieval metaphysics, he should check out Plotinus and Meister Eckhart. Aquinas was a sensationalist, which makes his thinking anti-metaphysical. Schuon explains as such in his argument against reason:

http://www.sophia-perennis.com/philosophy/raison_intellection.htm

Also, what is medieval thought without Boetius?
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
I wonder if Tim Cain is gonna make this game all gay too...

Just because he's gay, he feels like he has to convert us or some shit.
Statistically, somewhere between 5 and 20% of the West's population identifies as at least somewhat gay/lesbian. Which means, statistically speaking, every game you play is at least partially gay. So yeah, you're already screwed.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Joined
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Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I don't know about romance but love has always been a very strong driving force in all the works by Avellone (Gann, Kreia, Ravel, TNO) and by Ziets in MotB. Sometimes this may be romantic love or even a "romance" if you want to call it that but it's really more about the idea of love: the love to one's country, the love to an idea, the love of a parent, the love between friends, the love to one's duty or freedom, and so on.

Not sure why I'm throwing this out there. I do think these games are better for it rather than worse. This has nothing in common with what Bioware does.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
Including gays or romances also isn't a "message". I agree with you that every element of the game should reinforce it, but you seem to draw the conclusion from this that no good game with these elements is possible. If something is good and fits the context, it may enhance the game, and that holds also for romances. The Nameless' One story with Deionarra was also a romance of sorts, and it was one of the driving threads of Torment...


> but you seem to draw the conclusion from this that no good game with these elements is possible.

Actually he didn't say that. A mature game without issues such as these is lacking, however... because if there are not difficult questions to explore in the game, then what's matue about it?
 

Jasede

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Sheek: Yes, I concur. I am not saying he's amazing as far as literature goes, because that's just not true, but as far as video games go he really can show us that the medium still has a long way to go and he's going in the right direction.

Shame few others are.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
This doesn't change the fact that this level of insight into difficult issues is possible in games. Even if TW2 is based on a series of books, it doesn't mean that PE cannot mirror its approach on its own.

I never said it is impossible but I would not call it realistic. I call it entertainingly complex; that is all. If I were too serious about this argument I would pick the bones clean off the realism in TW2. But I am not.

I never claimed that TW2 was realistic. It was you stating that. Realism is not necessarily important in, especially in the work of fantasy (realism is taken care of by "suspension of disbelief" and "conworld consistency" factors). Validity of themes, however, is.
 
Joined
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Messages
997
Location
Dreams, where I'm a viking.
Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
And that point is determined by...? Funny, since one of the best arguments against fluffy Bioware romances and emo characters is that they're completely unrealistic. So yeah, I think more realism means a better game.

Look, homosexuality is simply a quite common thing, no need to get your knickers in a twist.

Very true. I think you can also distinguish between the realism of the setting itself and the plausibility of the way the inhabitants react to the setting. So a world in which magic exists is unrealistic, but if the inhabitants of that world act in a way which makes sense given the existence of magic it feels realistic. If they don't act in a way that makes sense, it seems silly (such as in almost every videogame romance ever).

If the human inhabitants of the world were never gay, that would actually be extremely implausible, unless you made the non-existence of homosexuality an explicit condition of the world. In other words, unless you create a lore based reason for why there are no gay people, the absence of gay people does not make sense.

The argument that this is a medieval setting is an unconvincing argument for this reason; you are not making it a perfect representation of European history (elves, magic, at least a few relatively modern notions of right and wrong will likely be included), so on the question of how societies treated homosexuality in the past, you are making explicit choices about which medieval mores to include.

So viewing the inclusion of a common aspect of human behavior, such as homosexuality, as some kind of "unnecessary" meddling is kind of silly, as you are meddling the moment you begin to create a fantasy setting.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
This doesn't change the fact that this level of insight into difficult issues is possible in games. Even if TW2 is based on a series of books, it doesn't mean that PE cannot mirror its approach on its own.

I never said it is impossible but I would not call it realistic. I call it entertainingly complex; that is all. If I were too serious about this argument I would pick the bones clean off the realism in TW2. But I am not.

I never claimed that TW2 was realistic. It was you stating that. Realism is not necessarily important in, especially in the work of fantasy. Validity of themes, however, is.

There you go. So there is no necessity to put in any of romances or sexual deviation if that does not suit the "theme" (Whatever that means to video game designers).

Yep, there's no necessity, but there is also nothing definite that should prevent them from doing so if it reinforces the message. And as I said, if Obsidian is shooting for "mature RPG" - as they promised in their initial video - they will need some mature themes for thinking adults - not necessarily the most sensitive ones, but at least something. Without them the game's going to be a juvenile romp.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
TO be honest mature should confirm ONLY AND ONLY to hard choices and not the realism.

Not only for that but also to provoke serious questions and make player look at certain values from a different perspective - there doesn't have to gameplay mechanic around it if they are subtle enough, though for the major themes there should be (e.g. C&C).

As in not getting a positive result all the time or choosing between two evils. The way you are thinking of MAture is Bioware style.

We are not on the same page it seems. The problem with Bioware is not necessarily that they include all their crap - it's that it doesn't serve anything else but pointless pandering to sexual deviants and mawkish love stories. There's no *theme*. And even if it were it has to be realised well - which never happens in Bioware games due to bad writing.

The way I think of it is either VMTB or Alpha Protocol (less so before the circling vultures dive at me).

I agree, though Alpha Protocol could do better if it included less silly stuff that undermined it all the way.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,803
I don't know about romance but love has always been a very strong driving force in all the works by Avellone (Gann, Kreia, Ravel, TNO) and by Ziets in MotB. Sometimes this may be romantic love or even a "romance" if you want to call it that but it's really more about the idea of love: the love to one's country, the love to an idea, the love of a parent, the love between friends, the love to one's duty or freedom, and so on.

Not sure why I'm throwing this out there. I do think these games are better for it rather than worse. This has nothing in common with what Bioware does.

This "ideal" of romance is based on a "transcendent" model which resides in a divine archetype which is where the whole idea comes from in the first place. It is because Avellone points towards that archetype that his "romances" are not as offensive as the more mundane standards used by Hollywood and modern media in general, including Biofag and their irk.

Like i said many times, good story telling hinges entirely on the efficacy in which a writer is able to adhere to the eternal principles which govern the "higher" nature of man. Thus, heroic literature can be considered great only to the degree in which the author is able to convey something of the sense of the heroic without any interference or distortion from a lesser, human perspective.

It is because of this that homosexuality has no place in great romantic literature, because, being a distortion of the divine archetype in question a priori, it cannot be elevated to such a transcendent degree in the first place. From a purely human point of view, there's very little difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality, but at that point what does it matter? I sure as hell am not bothering with art just to experience the mundane. That goes even for video games.
 

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