Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Lockkaliber]

Is there anything more pathetic than those of us who are actually watching these guys eat pizza and chat with each other? I guess I'm not the only one with no life.

Xx~*NO LIFE KINGS*~xX

 

[bminorkey]

Jesus the sound. Don't these guys plan before hand?

I can't understand a word they're saying.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Yeah I'm out. Need to have time with the baby anyways. If they ever become audible someone let us know.

 

[oldmanpaco]

BTW bminorkey your avatar is making me attracted to you. Knock it off.

 

[bminorkey]

BTW bminorkey your avatar is making me attracted to you. Knock it off.

Problem, officer?

 

[oldmanpaco]

Unless you're the cosplay Asian in the pic you need to stop.

edit: Well over 50% of my posts are in GD. This shit is about to get real.

 

[Alex]

I was arguing with the guys at CodexDH (well mostly Jaedar, but other joined in) about fixed experience systems.I was turning it around on my head, and thought to post here so you guys can chime in too. I will try to keep this brief. I dislike the idea of quest based XP because it feels Obsidian is trying to make the system a bit more close ended. Trying to get a better control ofl how much XP the characters will have at any point in the game.

You can have different degrees of openness or closeness of a XP system. The most closed of all would be systems that gave you XP based on the exact point of the game's story, so that in order to get somewhere in a determined way, you would need to be a certain level, no matter what. Sub-quests and different solutions for the main quest don't play any part in how much XP you get.

Then you have quest based XP systems, like Vampire: Bloodlines. This system more closely monitors how much XP you get based on what part of the story is, but it isn't straightforward. You may be higher or lower level in some points, depending on how much extra content you did and what actions you choose. Vampire didn't manage this so well because there was little reason to not go after all the xp you could. In exchange for not getting more XP, all you got was a shorter game, and given how good the game was, this is a bad thing. Another problem is that main quest XP was more than enough to take you through the game, as long as you put it into combat. Of course, you can make games that fix these problems somewhat, specially by making time an actual resource in the game, but this category begins to stretch if following the quest lines stop being important.

Event based XP is like quest XP for sand box games. Instead of getting XP for following this or that story line, you get XP based on what you accomplish in the story. For example, if you stop the frost giant's plans, you will get XP, regardless if you did that by hearing about him from a tale in a bar and them seeking him off or because you put 2+2 together from rumors you heard and them melted the north mountain peaks with the help of fire elementals, stopping them in their tracks. The cool thing about such a system is that the game stops trying to force you through a certain progression. This system means that different approaches aren't penalized. However, the truth is that such system will usually limit what you can reasonably do in lower levels After all, if you can, with a speech of 5 (but a good eye for detail and perspicacity) solve a hard quest that is supposed to be done only at the end of the game, you will get so much XP it won't be even funny.

Alternatively, this can be fixed by having all events give the same XP, and you needing always the same amount of events to go up a level. So, if you always need 10 events completed to earn a level,it won't matter that much if you did something incredible to solve what looked to be a near impossible problem or if you helped the farmer get 10 eggs. Note that, this is also a downside, it doesn't matter what you did, you get the same rewards.

Finally, my favorite, at least for gamist games (I know, it sounds like a pleaonasm), is to reward characters according to challenges surmounted. Whether it is a fight or a risky operation, or a magical spell or conquering the frost giants, the XP gotten is proportional to how crafty, knowledgeable, sneaky, tactical or whatever else the players needed to be. I really like this kind of system because not only is experience a real reward, for real game achievement, but it can also allow for a very uneven treatment of the resource. You can solve a big problem in a crafty way and get a lot of XP, but not so much that would break the game. Put in good reasons for the party to want lots of XP, and good reasons for them to avoid XP too, and the game will have a lot of nice choices and consequences, without needing to write by hand how the players will go about getting that XP.

 

[Esquilax]

Finally, my favorite, at least for gamist games (I know, it sounds like a pleaonasm), is to reward characters according to challenges surmounted. Whether it is a fight or a risky operation, or a magical spell or conquering the frost giants, the XP gotten is proportional to how crafty, knowledgeable, sneaky, tactical or whatever else the players needed to be. I really like this kind of system because not only is experience a real reward, for real game achievement, but it can also allow for a very uneven treatment of the resource. You can solve a big problem in a crafty way and get a lot of XP, but not so much that would break the game. Put in good reasons for the party to want lots of XP, and good reasons for them to avoid XP too, and the game will have a lot of nice choices and consequences, without needing to write by hand how the players will go about getting that XP.

All good stuff, but this has never even been implemented and implementing it would be extremely difficult. Trying to exploit the system (i.e. achieve things in the "best way" whatever the designer happens to think the "best way" happens to be) will become another form of min-maxing that Sawyer is trying to avoid, no? While the idea of it sounds great, it's better to compare the XP based on accomplishment that Sawyer is going for to something that actually exists. You've played more RPG's than me, but to my knowledge, this sort of thing doesn't exist in the form you're talking about.

 

[Arkeus]

That looks pretty nice.

 

[Infinitron]

Double Fine has been surpassed.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Just passed Double Fine KS

 

[jewboy]

PE just beat DFA in terms of the kickstarter itself.

 

[Arkadin]

I was happy that Chris decided to interrogate the young pirate, rather than kill him. The dialogue/nonlethal approach

Otherwise, pretty slow start.

 

[Zed]

Gotta unlock dong-level in the endless paths.

 

[Esquilax]

Gotta unlock dong-level in the endless paths.

No cock, no pledge.

 

[Jaesun]

Did they surpass the DF KS amount + their PayPal amount?

 

[Alex]

All good stuff, but this has never even been implemented and implementing it would be extremely difficult. Trying to exploit the system (i.e. achieve things in the "best way" whatever the designer happens to think the "best way" happens to be) will become another form of min-maxing that Sawyer is trying to avoid, no? While the idea of it sounds great, it's better to compare the XP based on accomplishment that Sawyer is going for to something that actually exists. You've played more RPG's than me, but to my knowledge, this sort of thing doesn't exist in the form you're talking about.

Well, to be honest, I don't mind people trying to exploit the system. Heck, make the system fun to exploit. Give them some hard choices, and some enemies that are unbeatable without extreme exploiting! The thing about open ended systems is that they are always exploitable. But the good ones aren't obviously so, and can be fun to exploit. Or to play along. Or to exploit to the reverse side (minimum XP run), etc.

That said, you are right. This is a lot of work, and I never expected Obsidian to do that. I just dislike seeing it go in the opposite direction of what I wanted most.

 

[Infinitron]

Did they surpass the DF KS amount + their PayPal amount?

If not yet, they will very soon.

 

[almondblight]

That's a little worrying. The whole point of a stamina system is that you have a small amount of HPs. It doesn't make sense to have 10x as many HP at the end of the game as the start. A system where you take damage from every 'hit' means HP will probably increase throughout the game. Of course it it's like 1 HP per level that is not too bad although I would prefer it locked at the start.

They could have a system like in Unlimited Saga where stamina serves as a kind of shield for HP. You would have a chance of losing HP each turn, depending on the attack, but having full stamina would block that most of the time. If you get heavily drained, however, you're much more susceptible.

 

[Volourn]

"My exploration in Bloodlines wasn't hampered by the lack of monster-killing-XP. In fact, once you realized that, you were all the more motivated to find alternative methods to fighting."

I disagree. It ruined the combat experience to me. Combat no longer mattered 9of coruse, Bl copmbat sucked anyways). I just ran past every fight , got hit a couple of times, and ignored it. That's poor design.

I think you should xp for everything. Xp for combat, non combat, quest completion, role-playing, every fukkin' thing. This is just as bad as games who reward xp ONLY for combat. Both ways are dumb dumb. Not end of the world but weaksauce and shows poor and lazy design skills.

Tsk, tsk.

P.S. I like the satmina/health stuff for the most part.

And, yay, can taste BIG BIG CITY.

 

[Aeschylus]

Did they surpass the DF KS amount + their PayPal amount?

Assuming no movement since the last paypal update (probably not the case) they need about 3.5k more to pass DFA's final total.

 

[Gurkog]

PE passed DFA, woohoo!

 

[Digital Monocle]

PE passed DFA, woohoo!

how much more until the Second City?

 

[Volourn]

"ok at it from a gameplay perspective. You have a quest to "retrieve" a certain item from a misbehaving merchant. There are several approaches you could take: you might intimidate him, you might beat him up, or you might steal the item. Each one of these approaches befit a certain kind of character, and reward you for your playstyle. You get the satisfaction of appropriately roleplaying your character. The game rewards your character build and the choices you made."

Your way treats every character the same. That's pathetic. Chaarcetrs should not be equal.

 

[Jaesun]

"ok at it from a gameplay perspective. You have a quest to "retrieve" a certain item from a misbehaving merchant. There are several approaches you could take: you might intimidate him, you might beat him up, or you might steal the item. Each one of these approaches befit a certain kind of character, and reward you for your playstyle. You get the satisfaction of appropriately roleplaying your character. The game rewards your character build and the choices you made."

Your way treats every character the same. That's pathetic. Chaarcetrs should not be equal.

How would you like to approach it then?