Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[evdk]

But again, that is NOT confirmed. To me it sounds like you will have two "parallel" life bars, that will both be damaged at the same time. Not that one will "shield" the other.

It's not confirmed, I agree, so I offer nothing but my thoughts (after being asked). However, the example posted does suggest that the stamina acts a shield:

Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead."

Furthermore, from the KS page:

"The majority of damage a character takes is subtracted from his or her Stamina. Stamina represents how much general abuse a character can take before falling unconscious. Characters lose it quickly and regain it relatively rapidly, even without assistance."

aka a shield.

I think it would only be shield if the damage distribution between health and stamina was in some way proportional.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm referring to the concept of force shields in games. You have the shield and you have the hit points. Stamina here acts a shield and has all traits associated with force shields.

But that's my point. HP is exactly the same. It acts as a shield and has all the traits associated with force shields. So why is stamina so bad when it does more or less what HP has been doing for years?

Because it fakes it. It's a parallel system that shields HPs and allow you to play in a more relaxed manner. See my previous post.

 

[Jasede]

Look, I wrote a really nice post about this a few pages back. Yes, you can, by resting. But the question is: where are the safe spots? How many of them exist? How far apart are they? Are there encounters when you back-track? Are quests time-sensitive?

It's a question of balance and design. We can't properly judge this too well just yet; we simply don't know enough. For now it's enough to say you don't think this system can work too well whereas I say it can, depending on how you design the world/encounters/safe zones/abilities/enemies/hp growth and so on around it.

Either way we're both skeptics in different ways: you due to the limited information you have about the system, me because I can't trust Obsidian to balance mechanics well due to their track record. NWN 2 is _terrible_ when it comes to encounter design. Maybe the worst I've seen in terms of RPGs I actually played.

Edit:

Clearly they're taking a lot of ideas from Dark Souls. Why not go one step further:
Make resting SPAWN ENEMIES

 

[Captain Shrek]

Look, I wrote a really nice post about this a few pages back. Yes, you can, by resting. But the question is: where are the safe spots? How many of them exist? How far apart are they? Are there encounters when you back-track? Are quests time-sensitive?

It's a question of balance and design. We can't properly judge this too well just yet; we simply don't know enough. For now it's enough to say you don't think this system can work too well whereas I say it can, depending on how you design the world/encounters/safe zones/abilities/enemies/hp growth and so on around it.

Either way we're both skeptics in different ways: you due to the limited information you have about the system, me because I can't trust Obsidian to balance mechanics well due to their track record. NWN 2 is _terrible_ when it comes to encounter design. Maybe the worst I've seen in terms of RPGs I actually played.

A game designed to avoid rest spamming WILL NOT allow you to get into situations that make rest necessary too frequently. If it does it has failed.

 

[Mrowak]

It's different. In almost all games with force-shields you can still easily restore the HP through some means. Plus, more often than not, attacks won't "pierce" except for rarely. Sawyer's example shows that it's likely that even regular, normal attacks deplete HP. Before we debate this too much it'd probably be better to get more details out of him first.

But here's the thing: I doubt they even have decided on anything yet.

Can you refer me to the Sawyer's example you speak of? Or is it the one from Kickstarter Update 26?

 

[Jasede]

Captain Shrek: Incidentally, making a game balanced that tightly would take freaking years of Japanese game-testers and designers to balance. There's an extreme dearth of games that have such tight, "perfect" balances, and all of them aren't RPGs.

 

[Jasede]

It's different. In almost all games with force-shields you can still easily restore the HP through some means. Plus, more often than not, attacks won't "pierce" except for rarely. Sawyer's example shows that it's likely that even regular, normal attacks deplete HP. Before we debate this too much it'd probably be better to get more details out of him first.

But here's the thing: I doubt they even have decided on anything yet.

Can you refer me to the Sawyer's example you speak of? Or is it the one from Kickstarter Update 26?

The Bob the Fighter one, which teaches us that every hit does pierce Stamina automatically, causing HP damage no matter what.

 

[Mrowak]

Clearly they're taking a lot of ideas from Dark Souls. Why not go one step further:
Make resting SPAWN ENEMIES

I agree with everything in your post, save for that: Respawning enemies is teh EVIL!!111

 

[Vault Dweller]

Look, I wrote a really nice post about this a few pages back. Yes, you can, by resting. But the question is: where are the safe spots? How many of them exist? How far apart are they? Are there encounters when you back-track? Are quests time-sensitive?

I'll be more than happy to answer your questions, young padawan. No, quests aren't time sensitive. There are plenty of safe resting spots. Most likely one in front of a dungeon like the dragon's eye dungeon in IWD, so if you go in, you are on your own (shield only) and how many times you have to trek back is up to you.

If you have any other questions about RPG design, don't hesitate to ask, my friend.

 

[Jasede]

It's the easiest-to-balance way to make resting "work" in a game where you have resting.
It's also completely contrary to our understanding to western RPGs so I'm not pretending anyone here will ever second this. It would definitely make for a more challenging, more tightly designed game, though. You can't just "rest" your way past challenges. You either learn how to beat them with your resources or you're shit out of luck.

 

[Surf Solar]

It's the easiest-to-balance way to make resting "work" in a game where you have resting.
It's also completely contrary to our understanding to western RPGs so I'm not pretending anyone here will ever second this. It would definitely make for a more challenging, more tightly designed game, though. You can't just "rest" your way past challenges. You either learn how to beat them with your resources or you're shit out of luck.

I actually like that. Reminds me of Dark Souls though.

 

[Infinitron]

Just think about it.

You have your HPs - the real deal. Lose them and you're dead. No resurrection spells for you. Serious business. The hardcore games rejoice. "Yay! Death is serious business! Hooray!"

Then Obsidian turns around to the casuals and Bio fans and says "while death is indeed a very serious business, you have stamina points! What are the stamina points, you ask? Well, they are just like hit points but they can be regenerated fast and if you lose them you are not dead as long as you have one last party member standing. Or running around trying to regen stamina. You know, like in Dragon Age. The casual gamers rejoice. "Yay! Just like Dragon Age! Hooray!"

Sure, but what does that have to do with "force shielding"?

I think it would only be shield if the damage distribution between health and stamina was in some way proportional.

Precisely.

 

[Jasede]

Obviously, more like. Everything else will draw us in scores with pitchforks.

 

[Mrowak]

Clearly they're taking a lot of ideas from Dark Souls. Why not go one step further:
Make resting SPAWN ENEMIES

I agree with everything in your post, save for that: Respawning enemies is teh EVIL!!111

Link? I am blind.

It's the easiest-to-balance way to make resting "work" in a game where you have resting.
It's also completely contrary to our understanding to western RPGs so I'm not pretending anyone here will ever second this. It would definitely make for a more challenging, more tightly designed game, though. You can't just "rest" your way past challenges. You either learn how to beat them with your resources or you're shit out of luck.

I get what you mean (having played fucktonnes of jRPGs myself), but to my mind a lot would be sacrificed for that (conworld cosistency, for one). I was thinking for of a "Fatigued" status effect. Characters who'd suffer from it would get heavy penelties, but it would also be the prerequisite for getting benefits from resting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sawyer's example doesn't indicate that damage to health is getting through any kind of shield at all, but rather that for every 1 hp you lose 5 sp in addition. The only thing that stamina does to you is knocking you down when it runs out.

Is that what it indicates? Interesting. Then I'm completely wrong and it's not a shield at all. The numbers do seem to suggest that it's 5 points for every hp. I missed it the first time.

Ok, I take everything I said back. You win, Bishop.

Sometimes you need fancy new systems.

Sometimes you do.

 

[Jasede]

Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead."

It's not proof that every hit subtracts both health and stamina but it's not proof against it either. I'd say it definitely is a strong indicator that it would (damage health with every hit). Now ideally, attacking, using abilities, casting spells would all also cost stamina- and maybe dark magic, or Barbarians would have abilities that cost health as well.

 

[Mrowak]

Here's an example. Bob the Fighter has 32 Stamina and 30 Health. He gets hit by a number of attacks that subtract 25 Stamina and 5 health (leaving him with 8 Stamina and 25 Health). He is a fighter, so he chooses to use one of his abilities to regenerate Stamina. He does this and quickly bounces from 8 Stamina to 15. Unfortunately, he gets smacked again for 20 Stamina and 4 Health. He is knocked out (effectively 0 Stamina) and at 21 Health. The guys who knocked him out move to other targets.

Francine the priest casts restore stamina on Bob when combat is over. He recovers to full Stamina quickly, but is still at 21 Health. Depending on how the next few fights go, they will either have to retreat to rest or find a safe resting spot up ahead."

It's not proof that every hit subtracts both health and stamina but it's not proof against it either. I'd say it definitely is a strong indicator that it would (damage health with every hit). Now ideally, attacking, using abilities, casting spells would all also cost stamina- and maybe dark magic, or Barbarians would have abilities that cost health as well.

Abilities/actions costing stamina would be cool, but that's a risky step to take for them in the popamole world we live in. Also, I have to wonder how it would factor int the semi-Vancian magic system with all the cooldown in place. I think they are not planning on including what we both find quite desirable. At least there isn't even the slightest indication of that (save for a few mentions of Barbarian class, which don't mean anything).

 

[Jasede]

I have no idea how the magic system will be. I expect the worst and hope for the best. Seems to be the best rule with games nowadays. Vault Dweller wrote somewhere: all games are shit now. Well, with the exception of some Japanese action games he wouldn't like, and some Japanese arcade games he also wouldn't like that's the sad truth. There are no more good games, only drivel.

You want a good RPG, you make your own. Let's hope for the best for this. Who knows, maybe WL 2 and this will actually be what we've been looking for.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

man, you guys and your game mechanics...I'm gonna go find a nice feminist agenda or romance thread to troll for a while on the Obsidiboards

 

[Jasede]

And the romance/feminism boat plods on and on...

 

[evdk]

And the romance/feminism boat plods on and on...

At this moment they're self sustaining.

 

[Jasede]

Let's hope they don't become self-aware.

 

[evdk]

Then they would sure come to hate us for creating their painful existence and then history will be written by Harlan Ellison.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

so about this turn based battles nonsense the codex seems obsessed with...

I know Eternity is pause time and all...but don't you guys find it tedious having to deal with trash mobs in turn based mode?

I'd prefer a system that makes turn based optional so that when i fight a trash mob i can wipe them out in a few seconds in RTwP and then for truly tactical battles vs. bosses or tough encounters I could go turn based.

Is this really such a hard system to implement? seems like the best of both worlds to me.

 

[asper]

How about not having trash mobs in the first place?