Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Jasede]

That's one argument, but doesn't that diminish the aspect of HP/spell/resource management? The point of trash-mobs is to wear down your resources so the boss encounters become more challenging depending on how well you managed the encounters before that. KotC had trash mobs but they NEVERfelt like a nuisance to me.

Edit: NEVER

 

[msxyz]

Most of the time, trash mobs end up being a pathetic excuse for gaining XP and to allow grinding.

An RPG with no XP gains from common battles would make trash mobs entirely useless

 

[skuphundaku]

Just think about it.

You have your HPs - the real deal. Lose them and you're dead. No resurrection spells for you. Serious business. The hardcore games rejoice. "Yay! Death is serious business! Hooray!"

Then Obsidian turns around to the casuals and Bio fans and says "while death is indeed a very serious business, you have stamina points! What are the stamina points, you ask? Well, they are just like hit points but they can be regenerated fast and if you lose them you are not dead as long as you have one last party member standing. Or running around trying to regen stamina. You know, like in Dragon Age. The casual gamers rejoice. "Yay! Just like Dragon Age! Hooray!"

I do think that this whole stamina/health is, or at least started as, a ruse to placate both the "we're old school, we need health to be serious business" crowd and the "we suffer from ADHD, we need regenerating shields/health" crowd. In order for this to be more than just a cheap marketing ploy, the game needs to have enemies/attacks that damage mostly stamina and very little health, enemies/attacks that damage both proportionally and enemies/attacks that do little stamina damage but massive health damage. If you know that all, or at least most of, the damage you'll take will be stamina damage, then the amount of health you have will have the single meaning of a "countdown to going to rest" timer because you'll know that nothing unexpected can happen. If, on the other hand, you have enemies or attacks that do almost exclusively massive health damage, you'll have to always be on your toes because even though you have a lot of health and full stamina, you can still die in a blink of an eye if you fuck up.

Also, if you get knocked out by losing all stamina, the enemies should be able to finish you off, so the characters in your party that are still fighting should have to be used not only do defeat the opposition but also to defend their knocked out mates in order to save their lives.

 

[Jasede]

What do you fill a dungeon with then? There's got to be some combat encounters and anything but a boss is definitely trash. I'm pretty sure none of you are opposed to trash when the trash is a hand-designed encounter that doesn't repeat itself.

 

[Mrowak]

That's one argument, but doesn't that diminish the aspect of HP/spell/resource management? The point of trash-mobs is to wear down your resources so the boss encounters become more challenging depending on how well you managed the encounters before that. KotC had trash mobs but they felt like a nuisance.

That's no argument, but an excuse for the encounters to be modular, separated from each other and inconsequential in the larger scope of things. While there's some truth that they are designed to wear out the resources of the player, this is effectivelly nullified by availiability of said resources to him, (potions, ability to rest and recover stamina/spells and so on).

If you think about it using your common sense the typical encounter design in RPGs is pure nonsense, with the big bad sitting deep in the dungeon and not giving a flying fuck his army is being decimated.

What we need is a genuine battle encounter design you find in best PnP campaigns with each small encounter having remnifications: e.g. alarming everyone in the fortress, enemies regrouping, the big bad, standing in the frontlines of his people and pursuing the characters etc.

With such battle encounters the PCs simply don't have time for resource recovery, which will add tension, improve credibility and fix half of the gameplay abuse the player indulges himself in.

 

[Jasede]

Come on, that won't happen in the time-frame. It's not realistic. We need to focus on encounter-design focused around the medium of a video-game.

And that ideally means something like in RoA 2 or KotC: hand-placed encounters that don't stay out their welcome and remind you of playing a P&P dungeon.

 

[Infinitron]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61...-conversations-ever/page__st__20#entry1253351

OP I've never played AP, but have you ever played any of the Uncharted games or Diablo 3? I would like more of those types of encounters in game so I can still adventure while getting exposition without having to stand still for 15 minutes clicking next, next, next, to advance. I'd also like some contextual dialog so I can respond angry, or cautiously, etc depending on language or speech skills.

I'VE GOT CONSOLE RASH!!!

 

[almondblight]

Because it fakes it. It's a parallel system that shields HPs and allow you to play in a more relaxed manner. See my previous post.

Fakes what, the HP? The HP is already an artificial shielding system, there's no reason it should be the baseline other than convention. Stamina adds another component, similar in some ways to HP. Both are shielding systems. Very few RPG's have a realistic damage system where attacks cause actual wounds that affect performance (the only two I can think of off the top of my head are Deus Ex and Unreal World). In most systems, you're getting shot and taking spears to the face, but it's OK because your HP is above 0. You can still do whatever you want even if you drop from 100 HP to 1 - but if it drops one point below that, you die. That's not to say that HP working as a shield is bad - sure, it's very gamey to have combat be two guys hitting each other with swords for a while, but it allows for certain strategies.

As for allowing you to play in a more relaxed manner, I don't see how it does that either. Because stamina regenerates? Casual RPG's like Baldur's Gate and ADOM had health regeneration, and even in hardcore ones like Fallout you just opened your backpack and stimmed up. You might think that's bad design, but it's not one inherent to the stamina system and nonexistent in the HP-only system. In fact, the only game off the top of my head that uses a similar stamina plus HP model is Unlimited Saga, a game that was widely criticized for being to difficult and hardcore.

That's not to say that this game won't be too easy on normal - it probably will be, whether it's an HP-only system or a HP plus stamina system. But if it is too easy, it will be despite this system, not because of it.

 

[skuphundaku]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61...-conversations-ever/page__st__20#entry1253351

OP I've never played AP, but have you ever played any of the Uncharted games or Diablo 3? I would like more of those types of encounters in game so I can still adventure while getting exposition without having to stand still for 15 minutes clicking next, next, next, to advance. I'd also like some contextual dialog so I can respond angry, or cautiously, etc depending on language or speech skills.

I'VE GOT CONSOLE RASH!!!

I can understand where some clueless fool is coming from when appealing to Diablo (3) on a RPG forum, but Uncharted? FUCKING UNCHARTED??!?!!?

 

[Mrowak]

Come on, that won't happen in the time-frame. It's not realistic. We need to focus on encounter-design focused around the medium of a video-game.

Neither are respawning enemies, enemies sacrificing themselves by coming at you in conveniently placed waves or the sheer idiocy of dungeon lord...

But seriously, that is doable as provided it is scripted well and that are multiple paths of completing a quest - e.g. Thief series has vestiges of that, with enemies reacting to what player does. PE is supposed to offer alternate paths - as stipulated in Kickstarter promises, so that it is a perfect opportunity to implement various approaches (stealth vs full-combat vs blitz). Yes, I know that this is very ambitious, but since we are hypothesising anyway...

And that ideally means something like in RoA 2 or KotC: hand-placed encounters that don't stay out their welcome and remind you of playing a P&P dungeon.

No - although I must admit that KotC had far better encounters than any trash-mob-filled game. What I mean is scripting encounters in believeable manner so that A reacts to B. This is exactly the greatest example of C&C there is - player doing something in gameplay changing its parameters (perhaps influencing the story along the way). It's an ideal example but if you look it with common sense it is the most logical one.

In a more "realistic" (easier videogame-wise) example we make each encounter explained in context and offer challenge for each so that enemies cannot be in any way called "trash-mobs" but a real opposition that's not there to wear you down but to kill you - and has means to do so.

Trash-mobs is exactly the thing that plagues contemporary RPGs of every kind, and is the very thing that pisses me off in jRPGs. What's the point of an encounter if it's goddamn boring?

 

[serch]

Trash mobs also serve to make the player feel empowered, more so if they are composed of previously challenging baddies. Yeah, I know we, codexians, don't have to deal with trust issues like inferior life forms and therefore don't need ego stroking

 

[Mother Russia]

I don't like Obsidians version of Paladins. I mean, Paladins are supposed to be mighty warriors in their own right, they don't need a team any more than a fighter does.

Could someone help me lobby them to change that concept?

 

[tuluse]

Baldur's Gate 1 or 2
3751 46.4%
Planescape: Torment
3105 38.4%
Call of Duty
466 5.8%
Icewind Dale 1 or 2
403 5%
Temple of Elemental Evil
359 4.4%


This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm going to make a near-heretical statement here.

From a gamist pov, Baldur's Gate 2 is superior to PS:T. Combat is more fun, you have more options building your party, the dungeons are more interesting, and there are more of them. You also have complete control making your main character, which you don't have in PS:T.

PS:T obviously crushes it in narrative, but the way the question is phrased, BG2 is an acceptable response.

 

[SwiftCrack]

I guess the codex already has a reply in place regarding the issue of trash mobs.


""

 

[tuluse]

I don't like Obsidians version of Paladins. I mean, Paladins are supposed to be mighty warriors in their own right, they don't need a team any more than a fighter does.

Could someone help me lobby them to change that concept?

I don't understand what your concern is. From the kickstarter they said the game will be able to be completed solo if you choose to. That means all classes need or don't need teams equally.

 

[Infinitron]

Baldur's Gate 1 or 2
3751 46.4%
Planescape: Torment
3105 38.4%
Call of Duty
466 5.8%
Icewind Dale 1 or 2
403 5%
Temple of Elemental Evil
359 4.4%


This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm going to make a near-heretical statement here.

From a gamist pov, Baldur's Gate 2 is superior to PS:T. Combat is more fun, you have more options building your party, the dungeons are more interesting, and there are more of them. You also have complete control making your main character, which you don't have in PS:T.

PS:T obviously crushes it in narrative, but the way the question is phrased, BG2 is an acceptable response.

It's not near-heretical, it's fucking common sense. This game is not the PS:T spiritual successor. But it does seem to be influenced by The Black Hound. Baldur's Gate is the logical choice.

 

[Captain Shrek]

What do you fill a dungeon with then? There's got to be some combat encounters and anything but a boss is definitely trash. I'm pretty sure none of you are opposed to trash when the trash is a hand-designed encounter that doesn't repeat itself.

Are you serious? If you are then I am disappointed. RPGs do NOT need to have dungeons in the traditional sense to have good and interesting encounters and combat. In fact dungeons full of enemy make little sense in terms of story where a 4 member part blitzes through TENS and HUNDREDs of enemies in their own stronghold. It is a cheap excuse to include the feeling of doing something beyond just moving on the map.

The solution is actually not only resource efficient but also cost effective. Unfortunately the only games that do it right are JRPGs (never played many, but saw a lot being played). Make proportionate combat. Write the story in a way that the party encounters enemies in small bunches, in relevant places where it makes sense. Leave the large battles for the marines.

The entire idea behind a small party is that it should be fast and due the crucial quests and not fight the army of darkness.

 

[Lord Andre]

Paladins suck donkey balls. Let's lobby for blackguards and doomguards. Wait. All alingment based classes are hipster faggot crap. Let's just pretend we tolerate them and look the other way.

 

[bminorkey]

Baldur's Gate 1 or 2
3751 46.4%
Planescape: Torment
3105 38.4%
Call of Duty
466 5.8%
Icewind Dale 1 or 2
403 5%
Temple of Elemental Evil
359 4.4%


This is why we can't have nice things.

I'm going to make a near-heretical statement here.

From a gamist pov, Baldur's Gate 2 is superior to PS:T. Combat is more fun, you have more options building your party, the dungeons are more interesting, and there are more of them. You also have complete control making your main character, which you don't have in PS:T.

PS:T obviously crushes it in narrative, but the way the question is phrased, BG2 is an acceptable response.

It's not near-heretical, it's fucking common sense. This game is not the PS:T spiritual successor. But it does seem to be influenced by The Black Hound. Baldur's Gate is the logical choice.

Thinking about it, the entire poll is nonsensical because none of these games except BG are a direct source of inspiration for P:E, so why would the question apply to them.

Okay maybe Icewind Dale.

 

[tuluse]

PS:T is an IE game, so it is a source of inspiration too.

Well look at at that, the two IE games account for ~85% of what people chose.

 

[Tigranes]

God it's impossible to keep up with this thread, never mind the OE forums.

If you aren't getting your email validation for new accounts, we're having to do it manually at the moment due to various reasons. You can PM me on the Codex, or contact fionavar@obsidian.net directly.

Regarding moderation, our position's always been the same. We want it to be as loose as possible while maintaining the minimum required of a private company forum. I think things are pretty good in general, we've got plenty of Codexers mostly offering interesting discussion without the roof collapsing.

 

[bminorkey]

PS:T is an IE game, so it is a source of inspiration too.

Well look at at that, the two IE games account for ~85% of what people chose.

It's a very different, narrative-centric game which doesn't look like where P:E is going at all. PS:T is really exceptional among IE and oldskool party-based RPGs.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

you guys all missed the point...it's not that BG2 scored higher than PS:T.

IT'S THAT MOTHERFUCKING CALL OF DOODOO SCORED MOTHERFUCKING 3RD!

 

[bminorkey]

you guys all missed the point...it's not that BG2 scored higher than PS:T.

IT'S THAT MOTHERFUCKING CALL OF DOODOO SCORED MOTHERFUCKING 3RD!

It's a joke. Of course immature drones are gonna vote for it to show they 'get it lolol'.

 

[Jarpie]

God it's impossible to keep up with this thread, never mind the OE forums.

If you aren't getting your email validation for new accounts, we're having to do it manually at the moment due to various reasons. You can PM me on the Codex, or contact fionavar@obsidian.net directly.

Regarding moderation, our position's always been the same. We want it to be as loose as possible while maintaining the minimum required of a private company forum. I think things are pretty good in general, we've got plenty of Codexers mostly offering interesting discussion without the roof collapsing.

Why wasn't then some very passive-agressive snide remarks deleted from the pro-mancers, such as that one guy calling us cold-hearted?

Edit: since some of the posts from our folk has been deleted even though they weren't that bad.