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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

IronicNeurotic

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Joined
Dec 2, 2010
Messages
1,110
You know

While we have our Van Buren/Interplay boards times Josh Sawyer discussions back..... Something is missing

Troika

It's just not the same if we can't point out how much better Troika is, then go to another thread about Arcanum or TOEE and then bitch about those games.

No, wait. Wait.

We have InXile

:troll:
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,529
This is the main problem with Josh' design method. He looks at the dumbest gamers around and wants to make a system that even they can use and one that doesn't confuse them. Josh, please just ignore the fuckers who are this dumb. You will lose a few sales, but you will make a better game overall.

That simply won't happen as it is contrary to left wing game design. This is the belief that everyone, even total morons, should have equal rights to enjoy a game. Bob might be sad and might not understand if his character dies. Let's implement autoresurrection and call it HP! Jim might be sad and might not understand if his character misses an attack. Let's upgrade his missed attack to a glancing blow so that he feels better!!!
 

Aeschylus

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
^ I still don't understand what the fuck the political ideology of a game designer has to do with their games. I guess it is your schtick.

Curt Schilling is right wing as they get and he's responsible for Kingdoms of Amalur. If there are external factors driving game mechanics design, they are purely related to potential profit.
:keepmyjewgold:
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You know

While we have our Van Buren/Interplay boards times Josh Sawyer discussions back..... Something is missing

Troika

It's just not the same if we can't point out how much better Troika is, then go to another thread about Arcanum or TOEE and then bitch about those games.

No, wait. Wait.

We have InXile

:troll:
RGbli.png
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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^ I still don't understand what the fuck the political ideology of a game designer has to do with their games. I guess it is your schtick.

Curt Schilling is right wing as they get and he's responsible for Kingdoms of Amalur. If there are external factors driving game mechanics design, they are purely related to potential profit.

I really don't know what their personal political beliefs are (note that I made no mention of anyone's political ideology), I only know how they design their games, which is as left wing (trying to be inclusive of everyone) as it gets, I already explained the concept of "left wing game design" and how it works in my previous post.
 

Aeschylus

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Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
Ok, if you say so. Ironically, this left-wing game design you speak of is mostly brought on by the increased dominance of the monolithic corporate presences in the game industry, which are traditionally far more right-wing. Whooooooaaaaaa. :?
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Over at notYCS they're citing the recent King's Bounty series as an example of good RPG combat where attacks always hit. I've never played them (ugly-looking Eurotrash) but I recall Lesifoere liked them and Brother None once claimed The Legend was "an instant classic" (and was mocked for this by VoD in a newspost). Need more informed opinions.

Edit: Eh, just decided to check out this Drog thread. Looks like most of ya'll think it's boring shit, as I thought.

Meanwhile at SA:
People enjoy missing attacks? I tend to get a little irked when one of my characters miss, like "How the fuck could you miss that? You're standing right there."
:hmmm:

It's just not the same if we can't point out how much better Troika is, then go to another thread about Arcanum or TOEE and then bitch about those games.
Well Tim Cain's involved in this mess and Boyarsky was in the Diablo 3 debacle. You can't go home again.
 

Aeschylus

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Over at notYCS they're citing the recent King's Bounty series as an example of good RPG combat where attacks always hit. I've never played them (ugly-looking Eurotrash) but I recall Lesifoere liked them and Brother None once claimed The Legend was "an instant classic" (and was mocked for this by VoD in a newspost). Need more informed opinions.
KB: The Legend was a pretty good game. It was not, however, an RPG. It was a turn-based strategy game in the vein of HoMM with slightly more detailed hero-building than in those games (but only very slightly) and no city management. The combat was basically identical to HoMM, so if you've played those you can form an opinion. Also, it was possible to miss against certain creatures and when certain spells were applied.
 

roshan

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The opposite of left wing game design is right wing game design which is "let's create a difficult as fuck combat encounter and see if anyone manages to win it". Ending up fighting a giant with a level 2 party in TOEE, for example, is right wing game design.

Check out this quote:

I think it's important to keep the overall combat pacing in IE ranges. I.e., it should take roughly the same amount of time to defeat enemies and complete combat encounters in PE as in the IE games

This is quite simply a bad approach to the combat system. Combat shouldn't be "completed", it should be won. It should take effort and hard work. The idea that combat needs to be "completed" and the concept of "encounter time" means the designers are already working on the assumption that everyone should be able to beat every battle, and the job of the designer is then to just tweak combat duration, perhaps by bloating HP.
 

Roguey

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KB: The Legend was a pretty good game. It was not, however, an RPG. It was a turn-based strategy game in the vein of HoMM with slightly more detailed hero-building than in those games (but only very slightly) and no city management. The combat was basically identical to HoMM, so if you've played those you can form an opinion. Also, it was possible to miss against certain creatures and when certain spells were applied.
Ah thanks. So they're double-wrong. :smug:
 

tuluse

Arcane
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Messages
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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
roshan, just use a different buzzword to describe gameplay because using "left wing" and "right wing" is annoying.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,359
The idea that combat needs to be "completed" and the concept of "encounter time" means the designers are already working on the assumption that everyone should be able to beat every battle.

You use some words, and you're inferring X from Y, but the connection, where is it? Your claim, in fact, is:

When a game designer uses the word 'complete' and 'encounter time' for combat as opposed to 'win' and '[unspecified]', this provides conclusive proof that said game designer believes "everyone should be able to beat every battle."

OK.
 

Hormalakh

Magister
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
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honestly, it's not the 0 damage that bothers me as much as the decrease in randomness that Josh is trying to aim for. His game doesn't want to take advantage of Mayan advances? Fine. But to severely limit (this isn't necessarily what he's going to do) probability-based conflict resolution would be the bigger disappointment.
 

roshan

Arcane
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Messages
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You use some words, and you're inferring X from Y, but the connection, where is it? Your claim, in fact, is:

When a game designer uses the word 'complete' and 'encounter time' for combat as opposed to 'win' and '[unspecified]', this provides conclusive proof that said game designer believes "everyone should be able to beat every battle."

OK.

Of course, when combat is actually difficult, there's no way to predict whether a player will win it, much less how long they are going to take. When combat is a monotonous, routine activity where you mow down trash mobs like in NWN2, then encounter length becomes much more predictable and can be tweaked by reducing or increasing HP. "Features" such as autoresurrection are implemented by games like NWN2 and Project Eternity precisely to make sure that all players can "successfully" complete combat.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
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Messages
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roshan: You mean, in a game with difficult combat, a rough average of combat time cannot be calculated? You could not say whether the 'combat pace' in Difficult Game X is higher or lower than in Difficult Game Y? Or are you constructing a strawman in which Josh means by 'overall combat pacing' a restrictive and dumbed down definition like 'nobody should take more than 1 minute per battle'? Or that Josh believes combat pacing must be calculated to such a fine degree with such reliabiility that combat cannot help but be monotonous? Either way, you make some random inferences, and they are truly that - random.

How does the stamina/health system allow you to successfully complete that battle more easily, since the unconscious party member is for all practical purposes dead? Perhaps if 'awakening' the unconscious is easier than reviving a dead player (e.g. through a rod of resurrection or Raise Life spell), but we don't know that. A single battle is thus not made any easier to 'complete'. What about the long term? It depends on whether the costs of health attrition through multiple KO's, partially mitigated by the ease/difficulty of health healing in PE, is balanced right. In conclusion: here is again a meaningless inference.

I'm sure I haven't read everything Josh has said on PE, but from what I've read, and from what you quote, what I see is you see something, your eyeballs bulge, and you make up some shaky overinterpretation.

As Hormalakh says, I think with the information we currently have, the main concern with the 'no-miss' design is that it errs too far in removing randomness and thus, in fact, risks making combat more monotonous. I remain skeptical about the decision. As I said elsewhere, it's actually less intuitive, and with no clear benefit.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Josh post was a response to this post i made in Obsidian forums
That has lead in bosses that have 11000 hp and you clip at their health for 5 minutes,following the exact same tactic the whole time.that's not tactics,its tedious.Compare the dragon battles in BG2 and Dragon Age2.Firgraag had 180hp,the other dragons similar or even fewer.The encounters with each would last from 10 seconts(party wipe)to 2 minutes and were more memorable and chalenging than any modern game dragon fight.Dragon age dragon battle: you clip dragons health for 2 minutes(you just spam attacks ,on PC i just clicked on the dragon like it was Diablo or something),dragon flies on a rock,some dracochickens attack you.You kill them,dragon come again.You clip at his point for another 2 minutes(drinking a healing potion when nessesery)he flies away.Repeat the above 3 time and you won
So it makes sense for him to speak about encounter length. I'm sure he doesn't want to let you autowin the encounters
 

oscar

Arcane
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Aug 30, 2008
Messages
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NZ
If they just copied and pasted KoTC's implementation of D&D combat things would be fantastic. Obsidian could be left to what they do best: Storyfagging
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
If they just copied and pasted KoTC's implementation of D&D combat things would be fantastic.

Even acknowledging the existence of that game would mean acknowledging that the "problems" he's "solving" are not actually problems at all and then he couldn't save all us poor RPG players anymore.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I don't think implementing KotC's system would make much sense when you're trying to make a successor to an Infinity Engine game. Not that what they seem to be doing now makes much sense either.
 

Arkeus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
1,406
If your lose 10% of your hp relative to 100% of your stamina, all this means is that you must be knocked out of combat (killed) 10 times before your character actually dies. The HP in Project Eternity has nothing to do with appeasing old school fags, it's a perversion of the old concept as all it does in effect is give every character 10 lives, practically unlimited autoresurrection.

Then it's a good thing that healing health doesn't exist through magic or potions, right?

Seriously, this isn't "You can resurrect 10 times", it's a mix of "you have HP that you can't heal no matter what in dungeons/not resting places" and "It's much harder to quickly flat out kill a character than just knock him out ".

As for the "read the interviews/updates", i did that.

Strangely, all your posts kind of flat out lies about how he said his mechanic works. The 'glancing blows' are a obvious example:

Let's say your normal hits are 12-18:
*You crit, and do 18*1.5 damage, which is 27. The armor than blunt 5 damage off= 22.
*You hit, and do 15 damage. The Armor blunt 5= 10.
*You glance, and do 6 Damages. The Armor blunt 5= 1.

Of course, this is highly dependant on passive skills and active skills of characters, but this is flat out taken from examples from Josh, so...
 

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